[Fedora] Re: Nvidia sucks, sucks, sucks !

[Jonathan Berry]

On 11/9/06, Kim Lux <lux at diesel-research.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 14:04 -0700, Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:
> >  Under STABLE circumstances, this
> > works fine (as many have already told you.)
>
> Ummm... sorry, but it doesn't.
>
> First of all, thanks once again for introducing the red herring concept
> of me running a test kernel.  If you keep repeating a red herring,
> sooner or later some people might get confused, but not really.

No, the fact you were running a testing kernel is very relevant to
this.  Things break in testing kernels.  If you are running a testing
kernel, it is assumed that you know what you are doing.  If you do
not, you will likely run into problems.  Also (this will make more
sense later in the email) Livna does not build nvidia kernel modules
for testing kernels.  Things change too quickly and they cannot keep
up.

> If you read my original post, you'll note that I had problems building a
> driver for kernel 2798.  As far as I know that kernel is considered
> stable.  After all, it is running on most fc6 boxes.

That doesn't seem to be what you were claiming here.  It seems like
you were fine until you upgraded to the testing kernel...

> And the fact that the build failed is also irrelevant.
>
> THE RELEVANT POINT IN THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION IS THAT USERS HAVE TO
> *BUILD* A DRIVER IN ORDER TO RUN THE NVIDIA HARDWARE, unless they can
> live with what the non proprietary driver does.  (Caps for emphasis, not
> shouting !)

The problem with this argument is that users do *not* have to build a
driver if they use the Livna driver.  It's very easy, install an RPM
to add the repo, run a command to install the driver.  The driver then
upgrades itself with the kernel if the packages are available (which
may take a couple days for Livna to build).

> >  But once again, you fail to
> > comprehend that.  You want to run test kernels, that's fine.  But don't
> > expect everything to work, otherwise it wouldn't be a test kernel.
>
> This has NOTHING to do with being a test kernel.  Are you dense ?  The
> nvidia driver has to be built for EVERY kernel and for me the failure
> rate on that build is probably 50%.

During the time I used the package from nVidia, it worked most of the
time.  The times it did not, I usually found a fix fairly quickly.
Then I switched to the Livna package and have had even fewer issues.
The problem, especially when you throw in test kernels, is that the
kernel changes quickly (and Fedora updates to those changes quickly)
and nVidia cannot keep up with those changes.

> >   The
> > NTFS module also ties in to the kernel, and when there are kernel
> > updates, I have to wait a day or two to actually install the kernel
> > because the NTFS module hasn't been applied to the new one yet.
>
> Funny, I run ntfs on our server and I don't know a darn thing about how
> it ties into the kernel !  I run yum update on the server, it does its
> thing and I'm done.  ntfs has never failed to run when I've rebooted.
> That is the way software is supposed to work.

That's really funny, 'cause if you are doing this, then you can do
this with the nvidia driver as well.

> > But
> > that's just it, I WAIT FOR IT because I know it makes absolutely no
> > sense in running the new kernel while not having the updated drivers,
> > and then come bitch and moan that things don't work.  Get that into your
> > mind please: everything will, at some point or another, lack behind a
> > kernel update.
>
> Funny, but the only thing that lags behind a kernel update for me is
> nvidia, now that I run bcm43xx instead of ndiswrapper.
>
> >  It's YOUR responsibility to make sure you have the
> > correct drivers, modules, and/or patches BEFORE you update your kernel.
>
> Well, funny thing about that, with nvida YOU CAN'T !  At this point I
> would like to know if you have ever built an Nvidia driver ?
>
> Here is the thing... as far as I know, one can only build an Nvidia
> driver for the kernel that they are running.  Maybe the wizards know a
> way around this, but, like I said before, I have a life outside of
> Linux !  So what happens is you boot with the Nvidia driver and then you
> build it and that is when you find out if it works or not.

You most certainly can build the drivers before updating your kernel.
Check the command options that the nvidia script gives you.  That is,
you can at least build them before you reboot into the new kernel once
the update has been installed.  And you can always boot into the old
kernel if you need to work on things.  And yes, I have rebuild the
nvidia driver many times

> > Whether the nvidia folks decide to take 24 hours or 24 days to release
> > an update, that's THEIR call, and they will have a reason to do that.
>
> And to hell with the Linux folks and what they need.  Because here is
> the thing... I don't have to wait 24 hours or 24 days for the ntfs
> driver or the mouse driver or any of that.  It just seems to be there
> when the kernel is ready.  I have yet to update a kernel and lose use of
> ntfs or my mouse !

The NTFS driver is not (or at least was not, there may have been
discussions about changing that recently, not sure) in the Fedora
kernel.  It's very similar to the nvidia driver in this respect.  You
need to get it from Livna.

> > How many times haven't you heard Microsoft delaying a critical update,
> > while other third party companies have already released theirs?  They
> > have a reason to, whether it's for more testing or because the guy
> > responsible is taking a long piss.
>
> See, now open source software is different for all the other drivers
> other than those from nvidia.  That is my point !  The source is there
> and when the kernel gets built, so does the latest driver with all the
> recent updates in it.  Its a beautiful system !  Kudos to Linus and the
> boys on a job very, very well done.  I won't say what I think of nvidia
> being the exception to this system !

nVidia cannot release their driver as open source for a number of
issues.  They license IP that is not theirs and are restricted from
giving away the source.  I'd  like an open source full 3D nvidia
driver as much as you, but it's not going to happen because of legal
issues.  Sorry.

You are being very stubborn at this, Kim.  I've tried to write this to
be informative and helpful, so I hope you will read it in that light
and maybe learn something.  Complaining will only get you battered by
people annoyed that you are complaining, as you have seen.  Especially
when the things you are complaining about are a non-issue.  If you
want help, ask for it.  If you have constructive criticism, give it.
But I'd refrain from using inflammatory words (see your subject) or
else people will not take you seriously.  I sincerely hope this helps.

Jonathan