An apology is required from me

[Olav Vitters]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 09:12:30AM -0700, Daniel wrote:
> On 06/22/2012 08:10 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> >On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 06:27:14AM -0700, Daniel wrote:
> >>>On 06/22/2012 05:00 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> >>>>>On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:45:06PM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>On 06/21/2012 09:36 PM, Roger wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>As I understand it to date the devs say:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>"Go away", rightly so,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>and "Put up or shut up", again rightly so.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I've never heard complaints about the KDE devs doing that, and I
> >>>>>>>>>know that the Xfce devs don't.  AFAIK, only the Gnome devs say that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Citation needed! :P
> >>>
> >>>I hope that you're not asking for a citation to the effect that the
> >>>KDE or Xfce developers_don't_  respond to complaints with "Go away!"
> >>>nor with "Put up or shut up!" and are simply asking for
> >>>substantiation that Gnome developers_have_.
> >
> >In Wikipedia "citation needed" is added to prove a claim.
> 
> Right; but the question was whether you were asking for a _positive_
> proof of an _negative_ claim.
> 
> >Basically a
> >reference to a study showing that in general GNOME developers give this
> >answer and secondly that XFCE as well as KDE developers don't do this.
> 
> So, it indeed appears that you were demanding a positive proof of a
> negative claim.
> 
> The claim that Gnome developers tell people to kiss off is a
> positive claim, one establishes it by pointing to an example of one
> of them doing so.

Not really, you need to prove in happens in general. You talked about
GNOEM developers. That is not one person, that is multiple people.

Suggest to be careful when phrasing things because I will ask about it.

> The claim that KDE and Xfce developers don't do this is a negative claim.
> 
> >I think it is somewhat normal to ask for more details.
> 
> What sort of _details_ could one find in such an _absence_?

I already explained that.

> >And I understand
> >that proving a negative is difficult (XFCE/KDE), but that should still
> >be possible (sampling of all the answers).
> 
> And how would one prove that the sampling were representative?

Hey, you claimed things, don't pin this on me!

> (Do note that, while I have plainly agreed with Roger and Joe about
> what has come from the Gnome developers, I have _not_ taken a
> position on whether the KDE or Xfce developers do the same thing.
> I've just point to the active absurdity of wanting a _citation_ to
> prove a claim that they _don't_ do it.)

Yet you're totally fine to still claim things about GNOME developers?

right!

> >>>In this latter case, what would you do with the substantiation?  If
> >>>your response would be to shrug or to embrace the acts of
> >>>rejection,it would hardly be worth the effort of providing the
> >>>substantiation.  If, on the other hand, you promise to pour warm,
> >>>stale beer on one of those developers, then I for one will be happy
> >>>to track down an instance. :-;
> >
> >So in short: you have a belief, no basis for it, but cannot be bothered
> >to properly investigate. You make a judgement about GNOME developers,
> >and when someone from GNOME asks for details, there are none.
> 
> No.  In short I have a belief, and a basis for it, but don't want to
> slog back through the communications that I've read in an attempt to
> find those in which Gnome developers essentially said what Roger and
> Joe have claimed they say (Roger with approval).  And you want me to
> slog back through it without expectation of profit; you've even held
> onto the option of saying "So what?" or "Durn'd tootin'!"  Plainly
> it'd be a waste of my time.

I want to you back up your claims, indeed. I'm involved with GNOME, you
claim something, but someone from GNOME asking for details is too
cumbersome?

Damn!

> >Glad you cleared that up for me :)
> 
> Oh, I'm not trying to clear it up for you.  I'm trying to clear it
> up for anyone else who might be reading. ;-)

So anyone who agrees with you is ok. But the one person involved with
GNOME cannot get any response?
I think you're making things really clear :P

I welcome you to go to FOSDEM. I almost always go there. Talk in person,
not this anonymous internet stuff. Don't worry, I'm more polite on
mailing lists :P

-- 
Regards,
Olav