Etiquette and changing of threads

[Les Howell]

On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 10:47 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 06:27 +0200, lee wrote:
> > You need to realise that native speakers of English have a tendency to
> > be overly polite and to expect others to be just as overly polite as
> > they are, in ways non-native speakers of English mostly cannot fathom
> > (at least Germans cannot).  At the same time, non-native speakers of
> > English (at least Germans) can come across to native speakers of
> > English
> > as utterly rude, without any intention to come across like that and
> > without knowing that they do. --- For example, what I just wrote is
> > probably somewhat rude, without me intending to be.  It's because I'm
> > German, and the totally different mindsets of English and German
> > "collide", which would make it extremely complicated and requiring a
> > great deal of elaboration to put it in such a way that it doesn't seem
> > rude.
> 
> I think you're over-generalizing here. In my experience German speakers
> are just as polite as English speakers, especially if their English is
> as good as yours. Possibly some may come across as rude when their
> English is less good, as when one is learning a language one tends to
> say things more bluntly due to feeling more restricted, but it can also
> work the other way, when the beginner appears to be overly formal.
> Idiomatic expression and fleeting cultural references account for a huge
> proportion of everyday speech and a lot of that bleeds into written
> communication.
> 
> In my experience, national stereotypes are an unreliable guide in
> everyday life, though one thing that does seem to be different from one
> culture to another is the kind of thing they find funny. But that's
> another story.
> 
> poc
> 

Culture is absorbed.  I spent many years in Asia.  When I returned to
the United States, I would go to parties, and whoever I spoke with and I
would move slowly across the room and eventually no one was talking to
me.  An Asian friend and I were talking later and I mentioned this to
him.  He told me that in Asia people stand close, within a few inches.
The culture's "personal bubble" is very small.  American's personal
bubble is a couple of feet.  So I would get close, the person would move
away, I would get close and we would slowly move across the room.
People felt uncomfortable with me without knowing exactly why.  Once I
knew this I could adapt, or use it as needed.

In the same way, Americans have basically only three pronouns and every
other method of addressing someone comes as public, personal, or formal.
But in many languages, there are different ways to talk about distinct
family members, for example Korea in formal language has specific names
for first born son, or grandmother on the mothers side, or grandfather
on each side.  At least that is what I was told.  

Along with that goes a real value of deference depending on the level of
social status within the family.  In business there were three levels,
bosses where formal language and deference are shown, peers where one
talks slightly less formally, and subordinates where a deference was
shown in public.  What happens privately I don't know.

These frames of reference and culture impact how  one perceives what is
said.  Much or most of face to face speaking is the unspoken language of
eye contact, facial expression, posture, tone and word choice, written
communication uses punctuation, verb, subject, object, adjective and
adverb placement as well as word choice are to written communication.
Each of these is impacted by culture.

Whether we know it or not, these things affect our perception of the
speaker or writer, often to the point of obscuring the intended message.
It is difficult, but necessary to let go of some of these and
concentrate on the subject in intercultural communication.

Regards,
Les H