Level of discourse: how we can be more effective (and, systemd)

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 08:10:55PM -0600, jd1008 wrote:
> I think redhat or the moderators are simply getting out of line
> trying to shut up someone for criticizing the direction Fedora is
> taking. If the list is ONLY for people to seek help with problems
> resolution, THEN, PLEASE STATE SO IN THE PURPOSE OF THIS LIST -

We actually have almost exactly this.

Take a look at <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users>,
linked in the bottom of every message. It says:

  This list provides community assistance, encouragement, and advice for
  Fedora users. Topics outside of that are generally not appropriate for
  this list. Please keep in mind that there are many thousands of
  subscribers and do your best to remain on-topic and courteous.

And please also read <https://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct>, also linked
at the bottom of every message. I won't quote it here, but it has some nice
suggestions about handling disagreements.

Discussion about the direction of the distribution is not explicitly called
out as banned, but as you can see, it's clearly not the purpose of this
list. I didn't write that description, but I expect that it's not called out
as banned because I don't know of any _actual_ interest in banning or
"censoring" discussion. The fact, though, is that this list isn't a good
place for that because — largely because the tone is so often negative —
it's not a forum that decision-makers can actually follow and get good
feedback from.

Everything you are saying about developer and user input being crucial to
the project is completely true, but some of your post seems to be based
around the idea that decisions in Fedora should be made by polling. That
isn't how we do it, but the process is much more democratic than what it
seems to me that you're describing.

Technical decisions, including the adoption of systemd and anything further
we do with it, are made by FESCo, the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee,
which is entirely elected by Fedora users and contributors. Roles on this
committee are open to any Fedora packager. If you think we're doing a bad
job, I encourage you to stand for election, or find and support someone who
represents your views. (FESCo elections happen shortly after every Fedora
release.)

Overall strategic direction for the project is set by the Fedora Project
Board, which consists of appointed and elected members. Right now, most of
the appointed members are actually not Red Hat employees. The board hasn't
been very active of late, and if I remember right, wasn't even involved in
the systemd decision. Based on community input, including a session at Flock
last month and list discussion afterwards, we're likely to make some reforms
to encourage a more active board with better direct connection to Fedora
developers in different areas, but representative leadership and governance
are going to be key no matter what.

If you have ideas for how user and developer feedback can be better taken
into account, I'd love to hear them. However, I don't think "people should
be free to call each other names!" is ever going to be part of it. That's
not censorship — it is upholding our core value of friendship.

(See <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations>, if you aren't familiar.)


-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm at fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader