New download pages, brainstorming

Thu Aug 29 21:20:28 UTC 2013

> 2013/8/29 Máirín Duffy <duffy at fedoraproject.org>:
>> This is inconsistent with our website chrome and it blocks banner
>> content so I'm not convinced it's the right call.

On 08/29/2013 04:59 PM, Robert Mayr wrote:
> Ok, I see your concern, do we have other possibilities to make our
> fedoraproject.org site really the center of all fedora websites?
> If that's not the goal we can also keep it like it is now.

Well... we have a lot of sites :) https://apps.fedoraproject.org/ I
think www.fpo might be the only one not on that list? Looks like
spins.fpo  isn't, either. apps.fpo breaks our sites down into 4
categories, though... I think I would categorize them a bit differently
though. E.g., these all kind of focus on contributors... do we have
users who aren't contributors? (I think we do) and I think they are the
focus of www.fpo and some other sites -

- fedoraproject.org - learn about fedora, download it
- spins.fedoraproject.org - try out fedora for specific use cases
- docs.fedoraproject.org - get information/help on using fedora
- ask.fedoraproject.org - get some community support for fedora

I think everything else that we have is contributor-focused.

fedoraproject.org is almost really a splash or like a brochure for new
and prospective Fedora users right now. I guess we have to figure out if
this is okay and if we should improve it based on that current
understanding or should we change our basic understanding of the
function it serves?

>> Are there patterns from other websites you're using to inform this
>> design? Or is it gut? I put the term 'screenshots' in 'Features &
>> Screenshots' the nav bar because after reviewing dozens of app and OS
>> websites, it's a really common thing to have in the primary nav. What
>> problem are you trying to solve by pulling it out and putting it in a
>> submenu?
> 
> Hey Máirín don't worry, all the menu links are only examples, and the
> menu is pure CSS, it's rather easy to include it and the instructions
> should be the same everywhere. No patterns, just a hide block and
> display:block on mouse-over, that's it.

Oh okay, I was looking at it more from a design perspective than
technical/implementation. E.g., I was treating the items in the list as
much more important than how the list was implemented.

>>> 2) Drop the get-fedora-all page completely!
>>> This doesn't mean I don't want it's content. I'd think more of having
>>> no more duplicates (some spins are available on 2 or more pages) and
>>> complete our very nice get-fedora-options page with missing
>>> informations.
>>
>> I don't think duplicate info is a problem. People come to sites with
>> different needs in mind - for someone with need a, they might go to the
>> one page, person with need b the other page, and the duplicate spins
>> might help both.
> 
> Yes, all people have different needs, but isn't this the reason why we
> should be as clear as possible when linking all the available download
> links or architectures? Duplicating links on 3 different pages is not
> really what I expect to find, as a new user I expect a download page
> which guides me clearly through the various possibilities I have.

Can you give me some specific use cases you're finding a bit muddled in
the current website? Let's walk through them. If you're a new user...
you're just going to want to try Fedora, and we make one canonical link
to do that - the default download. The other stuff is more for
exploring, but if you're new to Fedora you might not know what all of it
is (for ex. spins). What kinds of things would a new user want to find
that is difficult to find there? Cloud images, sure. Anything else?
> 
>>> Finally I'd like to have all spins on spins.fp.o, which means we have
>>> to include our spin page better in our main fedoraproject.org site to
>>> have the same effect as now.
>>
>> What do you mean by this? Make it more visible, or integrate it? (I
>> think the former is okay, but I don't think we should integrate it at
>> all. They are not supported anywhere near the level of the main
>> downloads promoted on get.fpo and listing them equally will give a false
>> impression.)
> 
> Yes I mean more visible, because actually we don't have enough links
> to spins.fpo, or better, they are not clearly promoted. I also don't
> like having SoaS or Security or whatever on our fedoraproject.org
> site. They should stay in spins.fp.o.

Yeh I agree 100% they should be on spins. I'm not sure how/when that
change happened.

How much do we want to promote spins? Beyond KDE, are any of the spins
really widely used? How many are well-maintained? It doesn't look like
the download numbers are listed on the site anymore.

> The only reason why KDE should remain on fp.o is that it's a main spin.

I agree. It's also very popular.
> 
>>> 3) Use the get-fedora page to promote all the shipping methods
>>> The clearest method to do so IMHO would be to drop also the right
>>> random banners we have on the sidebar (Desktop, 2nd-arches, Cloud,
>>> Spins) and to put them into the get-fedora page. See a mockup here
>>> [3], althoough it's not complete (obviously I don't want to have the
>>> 2nd-arches banner alone there and will make them nicer when writing
>>> the code). The banners should link to the tabs in get-fedora-options
>>> or to our spins page and give users a clear idea of what is available.
>>
>> Why would you call out desktop specifically when the desktop edition is
>> already there on the page? Why would someone click on 'desktop'? Who are
>> you thinking would be looking for that?
> 
> That0s the point, you got it. And actually it isn't so much better, we
> have Formats and Desktop on one hand, and a unique Desktop Edition on
> the other hand. It's already confusing a bit IMHO, but I can also be
> wrong of course.

I agree.... it is already confusing.
> 
>> I can see promoting cloud here, or even giving cloud a box like the
>> 'Fedora 19 Desktop Edition' that says 'Fedora 19 Cloud Edition' or
>> whatnot. I don't like promoting spins with just a button that says spins
>> because people new to fedora have no idea what spins are. I could see
>> promoting the arm builds here since arm is pretty relevant and a lot of
>> people are talking about it and using it for various devices, but I'm
>> not quite sure s390 and ppc builds are really anywhere near as
>> interesting or useful to folks browsing this page.
> 
> That's a nice idea, we should work on this :)

Yeh, I think the thing is getting some kind of nod from FESCO or the
board on whether or not this is right. I'm happy to do mockups if
they're okay with the general idea.
> 
>>> Same for get-pre-release:we can continue to promote it easily on the
>>> get-fedora page and we could also advertise it better on our main page
>>> (drop down menu).
>>
>> Who do we want using pre-releases? The site was originally designed with
>> the intent of being more of a showroom for users new to or considering
>> Fedora. Testers know how to get pre-releases and don't need so much
>> guidance.
> 
> If we want to have more people testing our pre-releases we have to
> make it more visible, perhaps with a red exclamation mark, but we
> should have them visible.

Yeah but here's the thing - if www.fpo is for end users... then this
doesn't belong there. Testers are contributors. What we may really need
is some other site for contributors - a site, much more organized than
the wiki - that organizes all the ways you can help Fedora and
contribute to it. www.fpo is for consuming, not contributing. So I don't
think test builds should be promoted on it if the point of running a
test build is to test and provide bug reports. I absolutely agree with
you that we should be doing much more to promote test builds to get more
test contributions, but I think that belongs some place else (that may
not exist yet) What do you think?
> 
>>> 4) Sidebar: if we want to go ahead with this kind of restyling we can
>>> drop a lot of stuff on our sidebar, like the rotating banners and the
>>> events.
>>
>> Why would we want to drop that content? What problems would that solve?
> 
> It's related to the banners on get.fpo, if we put them on get.fpo we
> don't need duplicates (again), if not they will stay where they are
> now ;)

Ah ok
> 
>>> Instead of it why not use something nicer? Badges or social networks
>>> for example? Look at this mockup [4], I'd love it.
>>
>> Do we actually have social media presences in all those venues? (I don't
>> think we do) We could put little icons like that for the social media
>> presences we do have though and have just one row.
> 
> No we don't, it's another example. But we are present in some of them.

We should definitely add ones for the ones we are present on! It's a
good idea...
> 
>> I don't know if the sidebar is a good place for general fedora stuff
>> advertising - that is what we have the sliders on the front page for,
>> isn't it?
> 
> Not really, perhaps badges, but social media in the slider?

Social media makes more sense in the sidebar. Badges we could promote
with a slider though. And we could promote them on a contributor-focused
site... (I keep going to maybe having a separate contributor site...)
> 
>>> I have created a dedicated branch (web-dl-redesign) to work on and try
>>> to have it all running and ready for production within F20 GA Release.
>>>
>>> Please let me know your thoughts, your ideas and improvements, I'd be
>>> also happy if someone wants to help me with this part of work. Kévin
>>> (shaiton) will do the background scripting part (thx) to have our
>>> variables running the right way also for a completely new download
>>> pages management.
>>> And thanks to Maria (tatica) for her drop down menu mockup ;)
>>
>> Thanks for kicking this off, it's clear we need some kind of change. I
>> think we need to talk a bit more about the problems we're trying to
>> solve first though.
> 
> Yes, I agree. I just put together a few things, would be great if we
> can start to discuss if and what we want to change.
> Our pages are the same for the last 3 years I think, it's time to make
> some changes. And not only from the layout, we need some major changes
> also on the content (how manu years do we have the photo-booth with
> the green face on our main page?). And for content we'd need some help
> ;)

LOL yes
> 
>>> [3] http://paste.opensuse.org/94023207
>>
>> With this design in particular, I worry that this design says "nobody
>> could make up their mind what is important, so they put everything up
>> front."
>>
>> I don't think this is the right approach.
> 
> Agree :)
> 
>> We need direction from FESCO or the Board (or both) as to what we should
>> be primarily promoting. We cannot promote all 20*n potential downlaods
>> we have available equally.
> 
> Ok, that's a good point. We could ask to have some statistics and
> match them with what we expect in the next years, for example cloud
> will have a low percentage but it's potentially a must.
> 
>>
>> ~m
> 
> Again, thanks a lot for your reply, I appreciate it very much.
>

Same here, I will start thinking about this, and maybe we can go to the
board or fesco and ask for some guidance.

~m