9:33 a.m.
Hi,
In the last Env & Stacks meeting last week there was discussion about
plans, direction, and content for the Fedora Developer Portal website
that is under construction. I think the plan is make the E&S WG more
actively involved in overseeing the content on the Portal. Anyway as part
of the discussion it was suggested by Langdon that it would be good to
reach out to the WS WG for input on its requirements and suggestions
for the Developer Portal since one of the main targets of Fedora WS is
developers. Since I am on both WGs I offered to liase on this topic.
What kind of content, requirements or suggestions does the WS WG have
for the Developer Portal?
References:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Projects/DeveloperPortal
Thanks, Jens
ps I planned to bring this up before the WS WG meeting today
but I got back late so posting it here now: not sure there would
have been time to discuss it in the irc meeting anyway...
3:12 p.m.
On Mon, 2015-07-20 at 10:33 -0400, Jens Petersen wrote:
In the last Env & Stacks meeting last week there was discussion about
plans, direction, and content for the Fedora Developer Portal website
that is under construction. I think the plan is make the E&S WG more
actively involved in overseeing the content on the Portal. Anyway as
part
of the discussion it was suggested by Langdon that it would be good
to
reach out to the WS WG for input on its requirements and suggestions
for the Developer Portal since one of the main targets of Fedora WS
is
developers. Since I am on both WGs I offered to liase on this topic.
What kind of content, requirements or suggestions does the WS WG have
for the Developer Portal?
Hi Jens,
I looked through the wiki page, and had a few questions/comments:
* Is the target was exclusively on using Fedora as a client machine,
or if it also is planned to cover using Mac/Windows to develop for
deployment?
* For someone coming to the website, they shouldn't feel that they
have to choose a language, a framework, a database, a deployment
technology before they get started. This is likely to stop anybody but
the most confident and experienced developer dead in their tracks. It's
fine if there is information on the site about a wide range of topics,
but we can't be afraid to make specific recommendations and orient the
experience of coming to the site around those recommendations.
(Probably a small set of recommendations rather than a single one,
depending on what language, if any, the developer knows, and what they
want to develop.)
* We definitely should eventually have "Creating native applications
for Fedora Workstation" as one topic. I don't know if we immediately
will have any really compelling solution to recommend - the closest
thin we have to a current recommendation is Javascript GTK+ apps using
a plain text editor - but we should be working on figuring that out on
the Workstation WG side. Native development isn't necessarily the main
target of Fedora Workstation, but it's something that people will want
to do.
* It would be great if any pain points and inelegant steps that come
up in creating the website get fed back into the Workstation and we can
try to fix them. Are there packages that you need to drop to the
command line to install? (We can preinstall or try to figure out how it
should work with GNOME Software.) Does system configuration need to be
changed? Are there places where additional GUI tools are needed? Are
there problems with networking and VMs? And so forth.
- Owen
3:10 a.m.
Hi Taylor,
On 07/20/2015 10:12 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
On Mon, 2015-07-20 at 10:33 -0400, Jens Petersen wrote:
> In the last Env & Stacks meeting last week there was discussion about
> plans, direction, and content for the Fedora Developer Portal website
> that is under construction. I think the plan is make the E&S WG more
> actively involved in overseeing the content on the Portal. Anyway as
> part
> of the discussion it was suggested by Langdon that it would be good
> to
> reach out to the WS WG for input on its requirements and suggestions
> for the Developer Portal since one of the main targets of Fedora WS
> is
> developers. Since I am on both WGs I offered to liase on this topic.
>
> What kind of content, requirements or suggestions does the WS WG have
> for the Developer Portal?
Hi Jens,
I looked through the wiki page, and had a few questions/comments:
* Is the target was exclusively on using Fedora as a client machine,
or if it also is planned to cover using Mac/Windows to develop for
deployment?
Yeah good point. Main target of Fedora Developer Portal is to allow
users to
use a features or projects who use Fedora.
Window no. We have no plan currently to support it.
If there is going to be a volunteer who creates a page for Mac it would
be awesome
But for Windows I think that it is not possible;)
* For someone coming to the website, they shouldn't feel that they
have to choose a language, a framework, a database, a deployment
technology before they get started. This is likely to stop anybody but
the most confident and experienced developer dead in their tracks. It's
fine if there is information on the site about a wide range of topics,
but we can't be afraid to make specific recommendations and orient the
experience of coming to the site around those recommendations.
(Probably a small set of recommendations rather than a single one,
depending on what language, if any, the developer knows, and what they
want to develop.)
Thanks for this.
More information can be found on our GitHub
https://github.com/developer-portal/content
We would like to allow users e.g to try Vagrant/Docker/DevAssistant
and shows them how to install it and how to make their workstation suitable
for using or even developing.
* We definitely should eventually have "Creating native applications
for Fedora Workstation" as one topic. I don't know if we immediately
will have any really compelling solution to recommend - the closest
thin we have to a current recommendation is Javascript GTK+ apps using
a plain text editor - but we should be working on figuring that out on
the Workstation WG side. Native development isn't necessarily the main
target of Fedora Workstation, but it's something that people will want
to do.
This could be defined later on. And I agree with this. Main propose of
this page is for developers but it is not to make their workstation for
native
development. After time they can do it some development.
* It would be great if any pain points and inelegant steps that come
up in creating the website get fed back into the Workstation and we can
try to fix them. Are there packages that you need to drop to the
command line to install? (We can preinstall or try to figure out how it
should work with GNOME Software.) Does system configuration need to be
changed? Are there places where additional GUI tools are needed? Are
there problems with networking and VMs? And so forth.
Testing instance of Fedora Developer Portal is here
https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/
Today there will be a brief overview.
Soon we are planning to announce it on devel list and of course on other
channels.
- Owen
_______________________________________________
env-and-stacks mailing list
env-and-stacks(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/env-and-stacks
--
Petr Hracek
Software Engineer
Developer Experience
Red Hat, Inc
Mob: +420777056169
email: phracek(a)redhat.com
3:22 a.m.
On 21 July 2015 at 18:10, Petr Hracek <phracek(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Hi Taylor,
On 07/20/2015 10:12 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2015-07-20 at 10:33 -0400, Jens Petersen wrote:
>>
>> In the last Env & Stacks meeting last week there was discussion about
>> plans, direction, and content for the Fedora Developer Portal website
>> that is under construction. I think the plan is make the E&S WG more
>> actively involved in overseeing the content on the Portal. Anyway as
>> part
>> of the discussion it was suggested by Langdon that it would be good
>> to
>> reach out to the WS WG for input on its requirements and suggestions
>> for the Developer Portal since one of the main targets of Fedora WS
>> is
>> developers. Since I am on both WGs I offered to liase on this topic.
>>
>> What kind of content, requirements or suggestions does the WS WG have
>> for the Developer Portal?
>
> Hi Jens,
>
> I looked through the wiki page, and had a few questions/comments:
>
> * Is the target was exclusively on using Fedora as a client machine,
> or if it also is planned to cover using Mac/Windows to develop for
> deployment?
Yeah good point. Main target of Fedora Developer Portal is to allow users to
use a features or projects who use Fedora.
Window no. We have no plan currently to support it.
If there is going to be a volunteer who creates a page for Mac it would be
awesome
But for Windows I think that it is not possible;)
Specifically for Linux container development, the combination of
Vagrant + VirtualBox + some of the tooling the Project Atomic folks
are putting together makes it feasible to have a cross-platform
development story. The Eclipse based tooling is also cross platform.
However, I don't think it makes sense to focus on that in the initial
iterations, although it may be a good thing to add later.
> * For someone coming to the website, they shouldn't feel
that they
> have to choose a language, a framework, a database, a deployment
> technology before they get started. This is likely to stop anybody but
> the most confident and experienced developer dead in their tracks. It's
> fine if there is information on the site about a wide range of topics,
> but we can't be afraid to make specific recommendations and orient the
> experience of coming to the site around those recommendations.
> (Probably a small set of recommendations rather than a single one,
> depending on what language, if any, the developer knows, and what they
> want to develop.)
Thanks for this.
More information can be found on our GitHub
https://github.com/developer-portal/content
We would like to allow users e.g to try Vagrant/Docker/DevAssistant
and shows them how to install it and how to make their workstation suitable
for using or even developing.
I think there are other recommendations we can draw on to say "If you
don't have a preference, use this". Think of a decision tree like the
one I suggested for deployment technologies, where we ask users
questions they're likely to know the answer to, and suggest a suitable
tech stack. We can also fall back on existing technology
recommendations in the other WGs and Fedora Infrastructure.
Probably another good one to defer, though - while I think we will
want such a guide for the new deployment tools folks are working on,
for this initial iteration of the site I think we're wanting to
attract folks that are *already* developing with open source
programming languages, and show them how to use their existing
toolsets effectively on the Fedora, rather than specifically aiming to
help complete beginners choose a suitable tech stack.
Cheers,
Nick.
--
Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan(a)gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
3:48 a.m.
Probably another good one to defer, though - while I think we will
want such a guide for the new deployment tools folks are working on,
for this initial iteration of the site I think we're wanting to
attract folks that are *already* developing with open source
programming languages, and show them how to use their existing
toolsets effectively on the Fedora, rather than specifically aiming to
help complete beginners choose a suitable tech stack.
Cheers,
Nick.
I think this is the most important point for the moment -it would be great
to have all the bells and whistles and decision trees, but if we start with
existing developers and work up from there it might get more traction.
I'd vote to have something on mobile development in there too, but then I'm
a bit biased being an ex FeedHenry guy!
Al
6:25 a.m.
On 21 July 2015 at 18:48, Al Graham <agraham(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>
> Probably another good one to defer, though - while I think we will
> want such a guide for the new deployment tools folks are working on,
> for this initial iteration of the site I think we're wanting to
> attract folks that are *already* developing with open source
> programming languages, and show them how to use their existing
> toolsets effectively on the Fedora, rather than specifically aiming to
> help complete beginners choose a suitable tech stack.
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
I think this is the most important point for the moment -it would be great
to have all the bells and whistles and decision trees, but if we start with
existing developers and work up from there it might get more traction.
I'd vote to have something on mobile development in there too, but then I'm
a bit biased being an ex FeedHenry guy!
Yeah, that's on my wish list too. At the very least, pointers to
projects like https://aerogear.org/ and http://www.eclipse.org/thym/
may be useful to alert folks to open source cross-platform tooling for
targeting multiple mobile operating systems.
The hard part isn't going to be finding information to include, it's
going to be distilling it down into a combination of sensible default
recommendations that avoid overwhelming folks with choice, while also
conveying the vast array of options the open source community has
collectively made available for everyone to use when we decide the
defaults aren't right for the specific project we're interested in.
Cheers,
Nick.
--
Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan(a)gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
6:06 a.m.
On 07/21/2015 10:22 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On 21 July 2015 at 18:10, Petr Hracek <phracek(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> Hi Taylor,
>
> On 07/20/2015 10:12 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
>> On Mon, 2015-07-20 at 10:33 -0400, Jens Petersen wrote:
>>> In the last Env & Stacks meeting last week there was discussion about
>>> plans, direction, and content for the Fedora Developer Portal website
>>> that is under construction. I think the plan is make the E&S WG more
>>> actively involved in overseeing the content on the Portal. Anyway as
>>> part
>>> of the discussion it was suggested by Langdon that it would be good
>>> to
>>> reach out to the WS WG for input on its requirements and suggestions
>>> for the Developer Portal since one of the main targets of Fedora WS
>>> is
>>> developers. Since I am on both WGs I offered to liase on this topic.
>>>
>>> What kind of content, requirements or suggestions does the WS WG have
>>> for the Developer Portal?
>> Hi Jens,
>>
>> I looked through the wiki page, and had a few questions/comments:
>>
>> * Is the target was exclusively on using Fedora as a client machine,
>> or if it also is planned to cover using Mac/Windows to develop for
>> deployment?
> Yeah good point. Main target of Fedora Developer Portal is to allow users to
> use a features or projects who use Fedora.
> Window no. We have no plan currently to support it.
> If there is going to be a volunteer who creates a page for Mac it would be
> awesome
> But for Windows I think that it is not possible;)
Specifically for Linux container development, the combination of
Vagrant + VirtualBox + some of the tooling the Project Atomic folks
are putting together makes it feasible to have a cross-platform
development story. The Eclipse based tooling is also cross platform.
However, I don't think it makes sense to focus on that in the initial
iterations, although it may be a good thing to add later.
Not only container
development. With upcoming changes to DevAssistant
(client-server architecture, WebUI) we aim at using the server part in
VM (Vagrant, preferably) and client being either served by that VM
through WebUI or being just a thin client on the host (let's hope
someone will pick it up and write clients for both Mac and Windows:).
Then it should be easy to start development of (basically any) Linux
project on non-Linux system in any language or any framework (well, as
long as these have assistants available:) )
Cheers,
Vašek
>> * For someone coming to the website, they shouldn't feel that they
>> have to choose a language, a framework, a database, a deployment
>> technology before they get started. This is likely to stop anybody but
>> the most confident and experienced developer dead in their tracks. It's
>> fine if there is information on the site about a wide range of topics,
>> but we can't be afraid to make specific recommendations and orient the
>> experience of coming to the site around those recommendations.
>> (Probably a small set of recommendations rather than a single one,
>> depending on what language, if any, the developer knows, and what they
>> want to develop.)
> Thanks for this.
> More information can be found on our GitHub
> https://github.com/developer-portal/content
>
> We would like to allow users e.g to try Vagrant/Docker/DevAssistant
> and shows them how to install it and how to make their workstation suitable
> for using or even developing.
I think there are other recommendations we can draw on to say "If you
don't have a preference, use this". Think of a decision tree like the
one I suggested for deployment technologies, where we ask users
questions they're likely to know the answer to, and suggest a suitable
tech stack. We can also fall back on existing technology
recommendations in the other WGs and Fedora Infrastructure.
Probably another good one to defer, though - while I think we will
want such a guide for the new deployment tools folks are working on,
for this initial iteration of the site I think we're wanting to
attract folks that are *already* developing with open source
programming languages, and show them how to use their existing
toolsets effectively on the Fedora, rather than specifically aiming to
help complete beginners choose a suitable tech stack.
Cheers,
Nick.
--
Architect - Senior Software Engineer
Developer Experience
Brno, Czech Republic
Phone: +420 739 666 824
3211
days inactive
3212
days old
env-and-stacks@lists.fedoraproject.org
6 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Al Graham -
Jens-Ulrik Petersen -
Nick Coghlan -
Owen Taylor -
Petr Hracek -
Václav Pavlín