Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Adam Samalik]

Hi everyone,

I updated the prototype and tried apply your feedback:
https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/

I removed everything "random" from the home page and changed it - so it better
explains the purpose of the portal. The previous version was more about previewing the
technology and structure in the main menu. The homepage itself wasn't that important -
sorry again for not making this clear in advance.

We should be now able to use the prototype to:
  - preview the content from our content repo [1] (it's better than reading markdown)
  - decide whether this structure is acceptable (and probably change it a lot)
  - and basically have something running

What it's not in the prototype:
  - section with docker images and vagrant boxes to download
  - section with blogs and updates

What I would like to do next? Ideally, if you find some time, I would like to have a
session with you, people interested in this project, to discuss the content, structure and
basically everything related to this. For example, I really like how the Fedora Hubs
project [2] is going. If we could do something similar, even when the Fedora Developer
Portal is not that big, it would be really nice.

If you don't know what this is all about, please visit our project wiki [3] or ask me
any question.

Adam


[1] https://github.com/developer-portal/content
[2] http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2015/07/01/fedora-hubs-update/
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer





----- Original Message -----
From: "Petr Hracek" <phracek(a)redhat.com&gt;
To: devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Sent: Wednesday, 22 July, 2015 3:24:11 PM
Subject: Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

On 07/21/2015 04:00 PM, Neal Gompa wrote: 



On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Jonathan Wakely < jwakely(a)redhat.com > wrote: 


On 21/07/15 15:45 +0200, Petr Hracek wrote: 


Feel free to send us any comment or improvements. We would like to improve Fedora for
developers. 
Just contents are missing. 

Under "The latest stable runtimes and frameworks Packaged in Fedora 
and ready to use!" would it be worth mentioning C and C++? 

GCC 5 is the first compiler to default to the latest C11 standard, and we ship more of the
latest C++ standard library extensions than any 
other compiler. 

There's a lot happening in that space, and not everyone gets excited 
by shiny dynamic languages ;-) 

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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel 
Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct 

​Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with the phrasing "Fedora is made for
developers". It implies that we don't do anything to make it great for
non-developers, which is not true at all. ​Is there a better way we can word this? 


As I mentioned in the first mail. This is proof of concept and will be definitely changed.

UX team could look at it and let us know whether is fullfield with fedoraproject UX
layouts. 
Other pages which could be developed later on could have the same faces so that 
all pages looks the same. 




-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! 




-- 
Petr Hracek
Software Engineer
Developer Experience
Red Hat, Inc
Mob: [phone]
email: phracek(a)redhat.com 

-- 
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Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Nick Coghlan]

On 23 Jul 2015 01:17, "Adam Samalik" <asamalik(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi everyone,
>
>  I updated the prototype and tried apply your feedback:
https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/

Very nice!

>  What I would like to do next? Ideally, if you find some time, I would
like to have a session with you, people interested in this project, to
discuss the content, structure and basically everything related to this.
For example, I really like how the Fedora Hubs project [2] is going. If we
could do something similar, even when the Fedora Developer Portal is not
that big, it would be really nice.

I'd be interested in attending a session like that (but would also
understand if having Australia in the time zone mix proved impractical from
the point of view of scheduling a discussion).

Regards,
Nick.

Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Petr Hracek]

Hi Hick,

If you are insterested in portal I suggest to add you as a co-maintainer.

What do you think about it?

Greetings
Petr
On 07/24/2015 10:45 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>  On 23 Jul 2015 01:17, "Adam Samalik" <asamalik(a)redhat.com 
>  <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>  >
>  > Hi everyone,
>  >
>  > I updated the prototype and tried apply your feedback: 
>  https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/
>
>  Very nice!
>
>  > What I would like to do next? Ideally, if you find some time, I 
>  would like to have a session with you, people interested in this 
>  project, to discuss the content, structure and basically everything 
>  related to this. For example, I really like how the Fedora Hubs 
>  project [2] is going. If we could do something similar, even when the 
>  Fedora Developer Portal is not that big, it would be really nice.
>
>  I'd be interested in attending a session like that (but would also 
>  understand if having Australia in the time zone mix proved impractical 
>  from the point of view of scheduling a discussion).
>
>  Regards,
>  Nick.
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  env-and-stacks mailing list
>  env-and-stacks(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/env-and-stacks 

-- 
Petr Hracek
Software Engineer
Developer Experience
Red Hat, Inc
Mob: [phone]
email: phracek(a)redhat.com

Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Nick Coghlan]

On 24 July 2015 at 18:55, Petr Hracek <phracek(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi Hick,
>
>  If you are insterested in portal I suggest to add you as a co-maintainer.
>
>  What do you think about it? 
Aye, I'd definitely be interested in that.

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan(a)gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia

Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Adam Samalik]

Hi Nick,

thanks! 

What I'm still missing in the current prototype is the "problem to be
solved" starting point - as you pointed out at the env-and-stacks meeting. For
example: I want to develop a web application. The site would give me options like Django,
Flask, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Jekyll,... Or even better, something more precise like deciding
the type of the web app: an application with backend and database, a static site, blog or
a wiki page? The tech-specific overview would show up afterwards. Suitable tools and
deployment option would show up as well. What do you think?

About the session vs time zones, I haven't realized that we are literally all around
the world :-)
Personally, I'm very flexible with timing and willing to do a session at (I know I
will regret that at 3 AM) any time. It's very important for me to make it successful.
Or we can do more than one. I will attend both/all of them.

Adam



----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Coghlan" <ncoghlan(a)gmail.com&gt;
To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
Cc: "Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group mailing list"
<env-and-stacks(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;, ncoghlan(a)redhat.com, duffy(a)redhat.com
Sent: Friday, 24 July, 2015 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept




On 23 Jul 2015 01:17, "Adam Samalik" < asamalik(a)redhat.com > wrote: 
>  
>  Hi everyone, 
>  
>  I updated the prototype and tried apply your feedback:
> https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/  
Very nice! 

>  What I would like to do next? Ideally, if you find some time, I would
> like to have a session with you, people interested in this project, to discuss the
> content, structure and basically everything related to this. For example, I really like
> how the Fedora Hubs project [2] is going. If we could do something similar, even when the
> Fedora Developer Portal is not that big, it would be really nice.  
I'd be interested in attending a session like that (but would also understand if
having Australia in the time zone mix proved impractical from the point of view of
scheduling a discussion). 

Regards, 
Nick. 

-- 
devel mailing list
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Nick Coghlan]

On 07/24/2015 07:16 PM, Adam Samalik wrote:
>  Hi Nick,
>  
>  thanks! 
>  
>  What I'm still missing in the current prototype is the "problem to be
> solved" starting point - as you pointed out at the env-and-stacks meeting. For
> example: I want to develop a web application. The site would give me options like Django,
> Flask, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Jekyll,... Or even better, something more precise like deciding
> the type of the web app: an application with backend and database, a static site, blog or
> a wiki page? The tech-specific overview would show up afterwards. Suitable tools and
> deployment option would show up as well. What do you think? 
I think it probably makes sense to focus on http://devassistant.org/ and
https://dapi.devassistant.org/ as the entry points to the Fedora
developer experience. We may want to pick out particular assistants and
highlight them (especially if we design the Fedora DA package to come
with some assistants pre-installed), but I think it makes sense to push
the "comprehensive" side of the story further upstream, and have
developers.fedoraproject.org present a more filtered view, just as the
main Fedora repos represent a filtered view of the upstream software
repositories.

My rationale for that is that DA provides an abstraction layer over
various mundane technical details - if you're using a well-maintained DA
Assistant to automate setting up a particular kind of project, then your
own practices can automatically adapt as recommendations change. If
folks want to learn more about the details of a recommendation, they can
dig into the implementation of the relevant assistant, but if they don't
want to care, they don't have to.

The DA folks are also actively working on offering good support for the
"Container Tools" workflow coming out of Project Atomic - that's a
Vagrant+containers based approach designed to be cross-platform for
development purposes and cross-distro for both development and
deployment, so adopting it for web service development means folks are
automatically lowering the barriers to entry to contributing to and
deploying their project. That workflow also actively encourages folks to
clearly separate their unit testing from their behavioural testing.

Given a default assumption that folks are willing to use DevAssistant
(either through the GUI or through the CLI), then the following kinds of
questions could help guide site users to appropriate assistants:

* I want to build a web application, where do I start?
* I want to build a command line application, where do I start?
* I want to build a desktop GUI application, where do I start?
* I want to build a mobile application, where do I start?
* I want to work with the Raspberry Pi, where do I start?
* I want to work with Arduino devices, where do I start?
* I want to work with other embedded devices, where do I start?
* I want to provide online documentation for my project, where do I start?
* I want to collaborate effectively with others on my project, where do
I start?

That last one wouldn't be a pointer to any DA Assistants, but rather a
pointer to resources like choosealicence.com, and a review of some of
the available project hosting options (most notably GitLab, GitHub,
BitBucket and FedoraHosted)

Regards,
Nick.

P.S. A note regarding the Raspberry Pi: I think this is a good example
of a case where cross-distro development support is important, as we'd
like to make it easy for folks to develop for the Raspberry Pi on Fedora
while targeting both the default Raspbian image and the Fedora Pi remix,
rather than only supporting developing for the latter.

-- 
Nick Coghlan
Fedora Environments & Stacks
Red Hat Developer Experience, Brisbane

Software Development Workflow Designer & Process Architect

Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Adam Samalik]

>  I think it probably makes sense to focus on http://devassistant.org/
> and
>  https://dapi.devassistant.org/ as the entry points to the Fedora
>  developer experience... 
Agree. They can start with the interesting part - coding - first.

>  ...We may want to pick out particular assistants and
>  highlight them (especially if we design the Fedora DA package to come
>  with some assistants pre-installed), but I think it makes sense to push
>  the "comprehensive" side of the story further upstream... 
Exactly. We would provide information how to get it running on Fedora - like
the current Ruby guide. (They can, of course, use DevAssistant)

>  ..., and have
>  developers.fedoraproject.org present a more filtered view, just as the
>  main Fedora repos represent a filtered view of the upstream software
>  repositories. 
>  My rationale for that is that DA provides an abstraction layer over
>  various mundane technical details - if you're using a well-maintained DA
>  Assistant to automate setting up a particular kind of project, then your
>  own practices can automatically adapt as recommendations change... 
Good point. I didn't think about it this way.

> ...If
>  folks want to learn more about the details of a recommendation, they can
>  dig into the implementation of the relevant assistant, but if they don't
>  want to care, they don't have to. 
>  The DA folks are also actively working on offering good support for
> the
>  "Container Tools" workflow coming out of Project Atomic - that's a
>  Vagrant+containers based approach designed to be cross-platform for
>  development purposes and cross-distro for both development and
>  deployment, so adopting it for web service development means folks are
>  automatically lowering the barriers to entry to contributing to and
>  deploying their project. That workflow also actively encourages folks to
>  clearly separate their unit testing from their behavioural testing. 
>  Given a default assumption that folks are willing to use DevAssistant
>
>  (either through the GUI or through the CLI), then the following kinds of
>  questions could help guide site users to appropriate assistants: 
>  * I want to build a web application, where do I start? 
>  * I want to build a command line application, where do I start?
>  * I want to build a desktop GUI application, where do I start?
>  * I want to build a mobile application, where do I start?
>  * I want to work with the Raspberry Pi, where do I start?
>  * I want to work with Arduino devices, where do I start? 
>  * I want to work with other embedded devices, where do I start?
>  * I want to provide online documentation for my project, where do I start?
>  * I want to collaborate effectively with others on my project, where do
>  I start? 
>  That last one wouldn't be a pointer to any DA Assistants, but
> rather a
>  pointer to resources like choosealicence.com, and a review of some of
>  the available project hosting options (most notably GitLab, GitHub,
>  BitBucket and FedoraHosted) 
I really like the point about collaboration and choosing a license. It's
essential and I totally missed it in the initial plan. 

>  P.S. A note regarding the Raspberry Pi: I think this is a good
> example
>  of a case where cross-distro development support is important, as we'd
>  like to make it easy for folks to develop for the Raspberry Pi on Fedora
>  while targeting both the default Raspbian image and the Fedora Pi remix,
>  rather than only supporting developing for the latter. 
I like the hidden message in this note: "We don't want to vendor-lock you
to Fedora. We want you to use it because it helps you, not because
you have to."




----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Coghlan" <ncoghlan(a)redhat.com&gt;
To: "Adam Samalik" <asamalik(a)redhat.com&gt;, "Development discussions
related to Fedora" <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
Cc: "Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group mailing list"
<env-and-stacks(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;, duffy(a)redhat.com
Sent: Monday, 27 July, 2015 6:41:40 AM
Subject: Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

On 07/24/2015 07:16 PM, Adam Samalik wrote:
>  Hi Nick,
>  
>  thanks! 
>  
>  What I'm still missing in the current prototype is the "problem to be
> solved" starting point - as you pointed out at the env-and-stacks meeting. For
> example: I want to develop a web application. The site would give me options like Django,
> Flask, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Jekyll,... Or even better, something more precise like deciding
> the type of the web app: an application with backend and database, a static site, blog or
> a wiki page? The tech-specific overview would show up afterwards. Suitable tools and
> deployment option would show up as well. What do you think? 
I think it probably makes sense to focus on http://devassistant.org/ and
https://dapi.devassistant.org/ as the entry points to the Fedora
developer experience. We may want to pick out particular assistants and
highlight them (especially if we design the Fedora DA package to come
with some assistants pre-installed), but I think it makes sense to push
the "comprehensive" side of the story further upstream, and have
developers.fedoraproject.org present a more filtered view, just as the
main Fedora repos represent a filtered view of the upstream software
repositories.

My rationale for that is that DA provides an abstraction layer over
various mundane technical details - if you're using a well-maintained DA
Assistant to automate setting up a particular kind of project, then your
own practices can automatically adapt as recommendations change. If
folks want to learn more about the details of a recommendation, they can
dig into the implementation of the relevant assistant, but if they don't
want to care, they don't have to.

The DA folks are also actively working on offering good support for the
"Container Tools" workflow coming out of Project Atomic - that's a
Vagrant+containers based approach designed to be cross-platform for
development purposes and cross-distro for both development and
deployment, so adopting it for web service development means folks are
automatically lowering the barriers to entry to contributing to and
deploying their project. That workflow also actively encourages folks to
clearly separate their unit testing from their behavioural testing.

Given a default assumption that folks are willing to use DevAssistant
(either through the GUI or through the CLI), then the following kinds of
questions could help guide site users to appropriate assistants:

* I want to build a web application, where do I start?
* I want to build a command line application, where do I start?
* I want to build a desktop GUI application, where do I start?
* I want to build a mobile application, where do I start?
* I want to work with the Raspberry Pi, where do I start?
* I want to work with Arduino devices, where do I start?
* I want to work with other embedded devices, where do I start?
* I want to provide online documentation for my project, where do I start?
* I want to collaborate effectively with others on my project, where do
I start?

That last one wouldn't be a pointer to any DA Assistants, but rather a
pointer to resources like choosealicence.com, and a review of some of
the available project hosting options (most notably GitLab, GitHub,
BitBucket and FedoraHosted)

Regards,
Nick.

P.S. A note regarding the Raspberry Pi: I think this is a good example
of a case where cross-distro development support is important, as we'd
like to make it easy for folks to develop for the Raspberry Pi on Fedora
while targeting both the default Raspbian image and the Fedora Pi remix,
rather than only supporting developing for the latter.

-- 
Nick Coghlan
Fedora Environments & Stacks
Red Hat Developer Experience, Brisbane

Software Development Workflow Designer & Process Architect

Fedora developer portal - proof of concept

[Petr Hracek]

On 07/27/2015 06:41 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>  On 07/24/2015 07:16 PM, Adam Samalik wrote:
> > Hi Nick,
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > What I'm still missing in the current prototype is the "problem to be
> solved" starting point - as you pointed out at the env-and-stacks meeting. For
> example: I want to develop a web application. The site would give me options like Django,
> Flask, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Jekyll,... Or even better, something more precise like deciding
> the type of the web app: an application with backend and database, a static site, blog or
> a wiki page? The tech-specific overview would show up afterwards. Suitable tools and
> deployment option would show up as well. What do you think?
>  I think it probably makes sense to focus on http://devassistant.org/ and
>  https://dapi.devassistant.org/ as the entry points to the Fedora
>  developer experience. We may want to pick out particular assistants and
>  highlight them (especially if we design the Fedora DA package to come
>  with some assistants pre-installed), but I think it makes sense to push
>  the "comprehensive" side of the story further upstream, and have
>  developers.fedoraproject.org present a more filtered view, just as the
>  main Fedora repos represent a filtered view of the upstream software
>  repositories. 
Yeah Nick, many of the things can be done by DA. But some have to
create 
assistants.
But I think then documentation and especially web pages are useful
for this case.

I think that some sections in developer.fedoraproject.org, like
Python, Ruby, Docker, should contain a row how we can use DA for it.
>  My rationale for that is that DA provides an abstraction layer over
>  various mundane technical details - if you're using a well-maintained DA
>  Assistant to automate setting up a particular kind of project, then your
>  own practices can automatically adapt as recommendations change. If
>  folks want to learn more about the details of a recommendation, they can
>  dig into the implementation of the relevant assistant, but if they don't
>  want to care, they don't have to.
>
>  The DA folks are also actively working on offering good support for the
>  "Container Tools" workflow coming out of Project Atomic - that's a
>  Vagrant+containers based approach designed to be cross-platform for
>  development purposes and cross-distro for both development and
>  deployment, so adopting it for web service development means folks are
>  automatically lowering the barriers to entry to contributing to and
>  deploying their project. That workflow also actively encourages folks to
>  clearly separate their unit testing from their behavioural testing.
>
>  Given a default assumption that folks are willing to use DevAssistant
>  (either through the GUI or through the CLI), then the following kinds of
>  questions could help guide site users to appropriate assistants:
>
>  * I want to build a web application, where do I start?
>  * I want to build a command line application, where do I start?
>  * I want to build a desktop GUI application, where do I start?
>  * I want to build a mobile application, where do I start?
>  * I want to work with the Raspberry Pi, where do I start?
>  * I want to work with Arduino devices, where do I start?
>  * I want to work with other embedded devices, where do I start?
>  * I want to provide online documentation for my project, where do I start?
>  * I want to collaborate effectively with others on my project, where do
>  I start? 
Right, but developer.fp.org is not about DA. It should be for users how 
to learn
relevant technology and how the one could be used on Fedora.
And may be not only on Fedora.
>  That last one wouldn't be a pointer to any DA Assistants, but
> rather a
>  pointer to resources like choosealicence.com, and a review of some of
>  the available project hosting options (most notably GitLab, GitHub,
>  BitBucket and FedoraHosted)
>
>  Regards,
>  Nick.
>
>  P.S. A note regarding the Raspberry Pi: I think this is a good example
>  of a case where cross-distro development support is important, as we'd
>  like to make it easy for folks to develop for the Raspberry Pi on Fedora
>  while targeting both the default Raspbian image and the Fedora Pi remix,
>  rather than only supporting developing for the latter.
>  
This is what is really currently missing on Fedora.
If I want to use Raspberry  Pi or Android then how to do it?

It could be a big part on developer.fp.org.
If I look on developer.ubuntu.com then I can see that there are some 
tutorials about mobile
experiences.
Why we do not have it on Fedora. Hmm big goal for portal.

I wrote an article [1] how to use android together with DA. But it is in 
czech:(.
I should write this article and paste them to livejournal definitely. 
But time is against me;)
I need at least 28 hours per day. Or not to sleep:)

GitHub repo with this asssistant is here [2].

[1] 
http://fedora.cz/devassistant-jak-vyvijet-aplikace-pro-android-na-fedore/
[2] git clone 
https://github.com/phracek/devassistant-assistants-nonfree.git

-- 
Petr Hracek
Software Engineer
Developer Experience
Red Hat, Inc
Mob: [phone]
email: phracek(a)redhat.com