Hi,
On 05/04/2011 11:49 PM, Jon Dowland wrote:
On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 11:43:26PM +0200, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
Overall, I prefer Fedora's approach. Maybe it's worth bouncing this off of debian-devel to get more input? _If_ this is changed, it should be changed globally, preferably at the same time for a lot of packages at once and become a release goal for next stable.
If there are no serious reasons against it, I'd go for that too.
What are the serious reasons for it? What advantages are there in aligning with Fedora (and going against the FHS)? The cost is -- at least -- changing all our packages (DDPO puts that at 265).
I'm not advocating anyone changes existing packages, esp. not all at once. I see no reason why packages could not be moved over one at a time. Likely both schemes are already in use at the same time already, even in Debian. For example the gnome-games games use /usr/bin and /usr/share not /usr/games and /usr/share/games, and I doubt that is different in Debian (I have not checked), likewise for kde games.
My main reason for starting this discussion is to come to some sort of agreement which form is the preferred form, so that we can have some "how to be a good games upstream" webpage which addresses some game specific things. I would like such a webpage to contain advice for upstream what to use for the various ambiguities I've pointed out in my first mail.
Currently various upstreams handle these things in different ways and we all end up patching some of them to handle things in the way preferred by our distro.
I'd like to hear from some other distros to see who else does what before considering such a move.
Agreed, I would love to get some input on this from other distros too. I propose that if we can get some sort of agreement between the people now actively involved we create a "how to be a good games upstream" wiki page on freedesktop.org, with a list at the bottoms which distro's have made / agree with the rules listed. Then we can send an announcement to lwn.net and a few others, and hopefully get more distro's to sign, or restart the discussion.
Regards,
Hans
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:50, Hans de Goede hdegoede@redhat.com wrote:
Agreed, I would love to get some input on this from other distros too. I propose that if we can get some sort of agreement between the people now actively involved we create a "how to be a good games upstream" wiki page on freedesktop.org, with a list at the bottoms which distro's have made / agree with the rules listed. Then we can send an announcement to lwn.net and a few others, and hopefully get more distro's to sign, or restart the discussion.
Aye. Labelling it as 0.1 (or 1.0 to get some buzz going) and stating explicitly that feedback is welcome would help to get in new people while already providing something to work with.
Richard
On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 10:50:20 +0200, Hans de Goede hdegoede@redhat.com wrote:
My main reason for starting this discussion is to come to some sort of agreement which form is the preferred form, so that we can have some "how to be a good games upstream" webpage which addresses some game specific things. I would like such a webpage to contain advice for upstream what to use for the various ambiguities I've pointed out in my first mail.
If you do include one of these, please include something about how to design games to be installed system wide. Some games seem to be setup to run out of people's home directory and mix per user data (needing write access) with static data. I also ran across a minor secuirty issue with a start up script that adds stuff to LDCONFIG (which shouldn't even be needed for system installs) incorrectly.
Typically games with servers also don't have init support for running these through the normal init mechanism. (There are two packages I maintain that I specifically want to fix this issue for when I get time.)
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 18:07, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
If you do include one of these, please include something about how to design games to be installed system wide. Some games seem to be setup to run out of people's home directory and mix per user data (needing write access) with static data.
As long as we are on this topic, please also add that they should seperate config from state.
A keybinding is config, X position and windows size are state. This becomes relevant once you use a VCS to keep configs in sync across your various computers.
Richard
PS: I don't want to subscribe to the fedora list, but the moderation emails are somewhat annoying. Hans, can you add me/us as approved senders, please?
Hi,
On 05/05/2011 06:57 PM, Richard Hartmann wrote:
<snip>
PS: I don't want to subscribe to the fedora list, but the moderation emails are somewhat annoying. Hans, can you add me/us as approved senders, please?
First of all thanks for keeping the fedora list in the CC.
I'm afraid I'm not a moderator, I've forwarded your request to the 2 moderators the list has.
It is a very low traffic list, sometimes an entire month goes by without it seeing a single mail. So you could just subscribe to it, who knows you may even see some discussions there which are interesting for you :) I often see interesting bits on debian-devel-games, like discussions about modifying ioquake3 so that it can be used as engine for openarena / world of padman / etc. too.
Regards,
Hans
On Thu, 5 May 2011 11:07:04 -0500 Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 10:50:20 +0200, Hans de Goede hdegoede@redhat.com wrote:
My main reason for starting this discussion is to come to some sort of agreement which form is the preferred form, so that we can have some "how to be a good games upstream" webpage which addresses some game specific things. I would like such a webpage to contain advice for upstream what to use for the various ambiguities I've pointed out in my first mail.
If you do include one of these, please include something about how to design games to be installed system wide. Some games seem to be setup to run out of people's home directory and mix per user data (needing write access) with static data. I also ran across a minor secuirty issue with a start up script that adds stuff to LDCONFIG (which shouldn't even be needed for system installs) incorrectly.
Debian doesn't have one specifically for games, but does have a page for upstreams [1]. Is this the sort of thing you're thinking about? If so it may contain some helpful starting points (or, for that matter, need expanding with your suggestions).
[1] http://wiki.debian.org/UpstreamGuide thanks, kk
Hi,
On 05/06/2011 01:47 AM, Karl Goetz wrote:
On Thu, 5 May 2011 11:07:04 -0500 Bruno Wolff IIIbruno@wolff.to wrote:
On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 10:50:20 +0200, Hans de Goedehdegoede@redhat.com wrote:
My main reason for starting this discussion is to come to some sort of agreement which form is the preferred form, so that we can have some "how to be a good games upstream" webpage which addresses some game specific things. I would like such a webpage to contain advice for upstream what to use for the various ambiguities I've pointed out in my first mail.
If you do include one of these, please include something about how to design games to be installed system wide. Some games seem to be setup to run out of people's home directory and mix per user data (needing write access) with static data. I also ran across a minor secuirty issue with a start up script that adds stuff to LDCONFIG (which shouldn't even be needed for system installs) incorrectly.
Debian doesn't have one specifically for games, but does have a page for upstreams [1]. Is this the sort of thing you're thinking about? If so it may contain some helpful starting points (or, for that matter, need expanding with your suggestions).
Yes that is more or less what I have in mind. In general I think it would be good to try to get a distro neutral version of this page online at freedesktop.org, which the various distro specific wiki's can then link too, but lets start with just a page with additional advice for games.
Regards,
Hans
Hi,
On 05/05/2011 06:07 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 10:50:20 +0200, Hans de Goedehdegoede@redhat.com wrote:
My main reason for starting this discussion is to come to some sort of agreement which form is the preferred form, so that we can have some "how to be a good games upstream" webpage which addresses some game specific things. I would like such a webpage to contain advice for upstream what to use for the various ambiguities I've pointed out in my first mail.
If you do include one of these, please include something about how to design games to be installed system wide. Some games seem to be setup to run out of people's home directory and mix per user data (needing write access) with static data.
A valid point, although one that should be covered by more the generic how to be a good upstream page Debian has. I guess it is worth repeating on a game specific page though :)
Remember once I've written that page it is a wiki, so feel free to edit/ amend.
Typically games with servers also don't have init support for running these through the normal init mechanism. (There are two packages I maintain that I specifically want to fix this issue for when I get time.)
I guess now a days they would need a systemd service file :)
Regards,
Hans
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Bruno Wolff III -
Hans de Goede -
Karl Goetz -
Richard Hartmann