Brainstorming Session for Fedora Community 2.0 - Monday August 3, 2009 - 1500 UTC

[Tom Callaway]

For those of you who haven't no idea what "Fedora Community" is, its our
newest Fedora web application, providing a window into the Fedora
distribution, and leveraging the power of Fedora's Account System,
Bodhi, Bugzilla, Koji, and PackageDB into a single user-friendly
website. It is built entirely with Free Software, such as Moksha and
Turbogears 2. Fedora Community is designed to simplify Fedora workflows
and bring transparency to Fedora processes:

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community

What you see on that URL is our 1.0 milestone, but we already have lots
of ideas on improvements and new functionality that we'd like to develop
for our 2.0 release. So, we're going to have a public brainstorming
session on Monday, August 3rd, 2009:

* The session will be held at 1500 UTC (11 AM Eastern)

(In addition, if there are enough interested international folks who
cannot attend the session due to their timezone, please let me know, and
we will try to schedule a future session that works for you)

We're going to use a variety of ways to be involved:

* IRC: #moksha on irc.freenode.net (we'll be watching and taking
questions from the channel)
* Gobby: We're going to keep our notes in Gobby, an open source
collaboration tool.
The name of our document is "Fedora Community Brainstorm", see
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo for information on
how to connect
* Telephone: This is where we'll be doing the talking.
US Toll-Free: 800-451-8679
Conference Code: 22717 79826
(If you need an international dial-in number, please email me with your
country, and I may be able to provide it.)
Please be kind and mute your line if you're not asking a question. If
the noise on the call becomes unbearable, I will mute everyone. :)

Questions about the meeting? Email me. Questions about Fedora Community
2.0? Come to the brainstorming session! Can't make it to the session and
want to suggest something? Login to Gobby and add it to our notes before
the session.

Thanks,

Tom "spot" Callaway, Fedora Community Cat Herder

[Máirín Duffy]

On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 17:25 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
>  What you see on that URL is our 1.0 milestone, but we already have
> lots
>  of ideas on improvements and new functionality that we'd like to develop
>  for our 2.0 release. So, we're going to have a public brainstorming
>  session on Monday, August 3rd, 2009: 
Here is the IRC log of that meeting; thanks to Ricky for capturing it.
We also have notes that were captured in Gobby during the meeting and
they are still there in the 'Fedora Community Brainstorm' document. I've
attached it here. 

~m

15:02 < lmacken> Ok, we're starting :)
15:02 < lmacken> feel free to ask questions here on IRC, and we'll be
sure to address them 
15:03 -!- delhage [n=lasse@pdpc/supporter/active/delhage] has joined
#moksha
15:04 -!- mmcgrath [n=mmcgrath(a)mmcgrath.net] has joined #moksha
15:05 < mizmo> talked a bit about statistics app
15:06 < mizmo> now taking a step back and talking about general
framework improvements 
15:06 -!- hiemanshu [n=hiemansh@fedora/hiemanshu] has joined #moksha
15:06 < mizmo> messaging backend / amqp / realtime messaging. right now
it's a proof-of-concept, we need to use it more in the apps
15:06 -!- kishan [n=kishan(a)117.99.184.157] has joined #moksha
15:06 -!- muep__ [n=muep(a)www.sse.fi] has joined #moksha
15:07 < mizmo> assuming we have a secure messaging infrastructure, what
would you like to see in order to publish your events? what type of
events would you be publishing, or be interested in seeing published?
(J5)
15:07 -!- heffer [n=felix@fedora/heffer] has joined #moksha
15:07 < mizmo> we need to define our event model and object model. what
events do we care about, what kind of data structures will we be dealing
with? (lmacken)
15:08 < mizmo> people will want to see the events they care about. e.g.,
machines going down, moreso the infrastructure team would be interested
in that type of status. how do you relate that to packagers 'i can't
build stuff right now' - how can we relate these events to people coming
from different POVs (J5)
15:08 -!- hiemanshu [n=hiemansh@fedora/hiemanshu] has left #moksha []
15:08 -!- rdieter [n=rdieter@fedora/rdieter] has joined #moksha
15:08 < mizmo> i built a feature in moksha where we can react to events.
moksha consumer api - say you want to listen to a certain topic/list of
topics, when message from that topic occurs, run some code. so we can
define how we want to react to a particular type of event in the system
(lmacken)
15:09 < mizmo> we can set up bridges to amqp as a first pass at
integration before completely rewriting apps to run in amqp (e.g. email
to amqp bridge to create events where some external app generates emails
when events occur) (J5)
15:10 < skvidal> reminder to everyone
15:10 < skvidal> if you want to listen in the call
15:10 < skvidal>
http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg05569.html
15:10 < mmcgrath> why isn't this being done in #fedora-meeting?
15:10 < skvidal> info there
15:11 < mizmo> we should give people the ability how they want to
receive these notifications - email, identi.ca, etc
15:11 < mizmo> does anyone have any other brainstorming ideas on
notifications / messaging / framework?
15:11 -!- stickster [n=nnnpfrie@fedora/stickster] has joined #moksha
15:11 < mizmo> another framework improvement we've talked about is the
concept of workflows (spot)
15:12 < J5> mmcgrath: spot said he wasn't sure if there would be a
conflict
15:12 < mmcgrath> there's not one
15:13 < mizmo> we want to build the framework so workflows can be coded
into the env in an intelligent way. take tasks that would be repetitive
or involve a lot of jumping around, and integrate them into a simple
system. we could have user-configured and existing workflows to leverage
the various apps (spot)
15:13 < mmcgrath> so instead of looking to see, instead we just have a
fedora related meeting not even in fedora namespace?
15:13 < mizmo> for example, we could have qa workflows,
release-engineering workflows, packager workflows
15:13 < lmacken> Phone # and more details can be found here, by the way:
http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/help-us-brainstorm-to-make-fedora-...
15:13 < mizmo> pushing an update was one of the workflows we focused on
in 1.0, you can push a build to testing. in the framework we'd like to
formalize this mode of operation (spot)
15:14 < heffer> is it possible to listen to the conference using Fedora
Talk?
15:14 < mizmo> we can look at existing tech in this space. eg. there's a
jboss component that does workflow operations
15:14 < mizmo> heffer: yep the details are at
http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/help-us-brainstorm-to-make-fedora-...
15:14 < mizmo> i'll post them here too
15:14 < mizmo>     * US Toll-Free: 800-451-8679
15:14 < mizmo>     * Conference Code: 22717 79826
15:15 < mizmo> heffer: do you need a non-us dial-in number? we may be
able to get yo uone
15:16 < heffer> i don't have a land-line phone available. but thanks for
asking
15:16 < mizmo> heffer: apparently it's phone only :( sorry
15:16 < heffer> okay, nevermind :)
15:17 < mizmo> ability to integrate with other systems would be great
for the workflow. e.g., if you have to go to an external webpage, you
can go out and do it, then come back to the fedora community workflow
and tell you that you did it. so even if the external site doesn't
integrate with us, we can enable users to tie it into a workflow and
manually update their status (J5)
15:17 < mmcgrath> it would appear fedora talk and #fedora-meeting are
more accessable to people.  Something to note for future meetings?
15:18 < spot> sure.
15:18 < mizmo> to bring workflows into the picture we have to figure out
how to store data for workflows - jboss jbpm may help us offload that
work? (lmacken)
15:19 -!- Nushio [n=John@fedora/Nushio] has joined #moksha
15:19 < mizmo> fedora commnunity could monitor events, update workflow,
provide views, and the workflow itself would maybe be external to the
fedora community main app? (J5)
15:19 < kital> i have added event reports - what is more than a blog
entry - as a important contribution from a ambassador point of view 
15:19 < mizmo> we set up workflows all the time in the wiki, it would be
nice to have a formal way to define workflows like in this system (J5)
15:20 < mizmo> kital: can you think of any particular workflows
ambassadors would be interested in setting up?
15:20 < mizmo> kital: eg as part of an event workflow, adding an event
report would be the last step?
15:21 < mizmo> at the beginning, getting promotional material artwork
into printers :) getting flyers designed, getting space reserved
15:21 < mizmo> workflow ideas:
15:21 < mizmo> security fix tracking (lmacken)
15:21 -!- gnokii [n=for(a)p5B0E67E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #moksha
15:21 < kital> yeah - event calender -> event staff -> event
material&logistic ... i will propose this in the mailing list for
discussion
15:21 < mizmo> kital: sweet
15:22 < mizmo> ooh and you could add in a survey
15:22 < mizmo> sending out a survey to attendees could be part of the
workflow
15:22 < kital> good!!!
15:23 < mizmo> 'you could have a paper clip in the corner like clippy
"so you'd like to host an event!"' lol (lmacken)
15:23 < mizmo> it's important to step back from the workflow technology,
and define the requirements of a workflow (lmacken)
15:24 < mizmo> you could assign tasks to automation scripts as part of a
workflow (J5)
15:24 < mizmo> another framework brainstorm idea
15:24 < mizmo> letting the user customize the look & feel of the webapp
(spot)
15:24 < Nushio> how about identi.ca integration, where available?
15:25 < Nushio> events could be posted on an identi.ca account feed, for
instance
15:25 < lmacken> Nushio: that's a great idea... 
15:25 < mizmo> Nushio: that's a great idea! maybe an identica feed for
each sig?
15:25 < lmacken> being able to monitor the planet & peoples identica
would be great
15:25 < mizmo> lmacken: per workflow feeds...
15:25 < Nushio> lmacken: I hadnt considered planet+identi.ca, but many
are already syncing their blogs to their identi.ca feed
15:25 < skvidal> mizmo: thanks for the save there :)
15:25 < mizmo> lmacken: eg the fudcon boston workflow feed
15:26 < J5> Nushio: with mohito we can add modules for updating any of
your feeds
15:26 < lmacken> maybe we should have an identi.ca username in fas, or
in the planet.cfg
15:26 < heffer> a little idea for package reviews: Maybe we could
integrate some review pooling connected with a get one give one (tm)
scheme. You want your new package reviewed enter it into the review pool
and have it automatically assigned to the reporter of the review you
will be automatically assigned to
15:26 < mizmo> right now fedora commnunity isn't as useful for people
who aren't package maintainers. we'd like to enable users to tweak the
UI to work for their needs... we'll set a sane default layout but let
users shape the page in the way that works best for them and share it
with others (spot)
15:27 < mizmo> the infrastructure we've built has a lot of power, we
even have a functioning window system - don't need to go that far but we
should try to leverage more of the functionality of moksha (spot)
15:27 < J5> http://moblin.org/projects/mojito
15:27 < mizmo> customizing interface could enable better 508 compliance
(accessibility) (skvidal)
15:27 -!- delhage [n=lasse@pdpc/supporter/active/delhage] has left
#moksha []
15:27 < Nushio> thanks j5, checking it out
15:28 < Nushio> J5: doesnt seem to support identi.ca yet, but I'm sure
it should be fairly simple
15:28 < J5> Nushio: we could write a plugin
15:28 < J5> should be no different than twitter
15:28 < mizmo> heffer: im going to add that idea to the gaming section,
but spot is saying it might be generally useful too, not just for
package reviews
15:29 < Nushio> yeah, thats what I thought
15:29 -!- Southern_Gentlem [n=notfred@fedora/Southern-Gentleman] has
joined #moksha
15:29 < Southern_Gentlem> all the brains already stormed??
15:29 < Nushio> Out of curiosity, how does the idea of
"badges/achievements/trophies/whatever you want to call'em" sound?
15:30 < heffer> mizmo, okay. great :)
15:30 < mizmo> if we set up a karma system and made it clear what tasks
need doing and the points associated with them, would make it easier for
new contributors to figure out what to work on (spot)
15:30 < mizmo> Southern_Gentlem: i'm transcribing the phone
15:30 < Nushio> something to keep track of "things you've done"
15:30  * Nushio is an achievement whore
15:30 < mizmo> Southern_Gentlem: if you want to dial in details are here
http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/help-us-brainstorm-to-make-fedora-...
15:30 < mizmo> one of the rewards of working with a karma system, people
will know your name. working in gnome, there were bug triage races,
certain people had their names known because of their ranks in the bug
triage races (J5)
15:31 < Nushio> J5, mizmo, the achievements thing I described could be
linked to the karma system
15:31 < mizmo> luis villa in gnome used to proclaim he was a useless
non-programmer but he was consistently at the top of the gnome bug
triaging list and became well known there and went on to higher ranks in
the community (J5)
15:31 < Nushio> as in, get a package in Fedora, get a (virtual) "badge"
saying you packaged something
15:31 < J5> Nushio: like trophies
15:32 < Nushio> J5: call'em what you want, trophies, badges, stickers,
achievements :P
15:32 < mizmo> http://www.thesixtyone.com/ is an example of a music site
with this game system. they have quests and missions you can go on -
'listen to 10 songs uploaded today' 'recruit 5 people ot join the site'
these kinds of quests gain you points when you finish them
15:32 < heffer> regarding localization: launchpad get's this right imo.
they let users submit translations and the translation software suggests
translations if the same (or similar string) has already been translated
in another program
15:32 < mizmo> (spot)
15:32 < mizmo> it's also like the achievement system on the PS3 and on
Xbox, we could tap that in a way to encourage folks to get the tasks
that need to get done done, maybe unfun/monotonous stuff could be made
more fun (spot)
15:33 < Nushio> mizmo: achievements are "one time", same with trophies
15:33 < Nushio> mizmo: i'd like to vouch for stickers
15:33 < Nushio> the more you do, the more you get
15:33  * Nushio doesn't know how stickers could be used in a "fun"
webapp though
15:33 < kital> how you consider quality against quantity in such a
system
15:33 < kital> ?
15:33 < mizmo> Nushio: maybe you could put them on your avatar or have a
little personal space on your profile page to use them
15:34 < mizmo> Nushio: you're relating ot the stickers in little big
planet right?
15:34 < Nushio> mizmo: I just got Wii Sports Resort yesterday, so, I'm
relating to those :)
15:34 < Nushio> (And in general, to Smash Bros Brawl)
15:34 < mizmo> i brought that idea up Nushio, they also mentioned badges
like on ohloh
15:34 < mizmo> we need users to tell us what their skills are to
facilitiate actions - we could determine this based on the quests they
tend to take on & finish vs the ones they dont finish (lmacken)
15:34 < Nushio> mizmo: thanks, I just joined the conversation, I hadn't
considered ohloh, but StackOverflow has badges too :)
15:35 < mizmo> we could tie those intersts back into mentoring systems
(lmacken)
15:35 < mizmo> Nushio: ooh ive never seen stack overflow before
15:36 < mizmo> Nushio: how do i see the badges on there?
15:36 < mizmo> relating badges to events - we could give people badges
to say they were at a particular fedora event, they hosted it eg (spot)
15:36 < Nushio> mizmo: http://stackoverflow.com/badges
15:37 < Nushio> (Example) Autobiographer: Completed all user profile
fields
15:37 < mizmo> Nushio: oh great!
15:37 < mizmo> kital: maybe have levels in the badges? ill bring up your
questoin
15:37 < mizmo> can we implement gobby in a webpage? (skvidal)
15:37 < Nushio> (This one I'd suggest) Beta User: Used Fedora Rawhide
and reported a bug
15:38 < mizmo> heffer: haven't gotten a chance to bring up your point
yet, just wanted to let yo uknow i saw it
15:38 < kital> mizmo: yes we thought about this in berlin 
15:38 < mizmo> lmacken is mentioning bspin, all python, collaborative
editing app (lmacken)
15:39 < skvidal> mizmo: bespin
15:39 < Nushio> back to identi.ca integration, we could have an
identi.ca account bot that replies to @username whenever he gets an
achievement/badge/whatever
15:39 < skvidal> https://bespin.mozilla.com/
15:39 < mizmo> could tie points system back into workflow (spot)
15:40 < mizmo> it would be pretty easy to set up a strawman system,
propose some points, and maybe adjust them... a line of translation
should be valued, filing a bug, sending in a patch... relatively these
could be fewer points than someone who runs an entire event where 200
people attend (stickers)
15:40 < mizmo> you could have domains, and ranks within those domains
(J5)
15:40 < mizmo> yeh a set for ambassadors, a set for docs people, a set
for translators (stickster)
15:40 < mizmo> don't put too much emphasis on it, you don't have enough
stickers (J5)
15:40 < mizmo> it should be fun, not meritocracy (stickster)
15:40 < mizmo> it should be more self-reflective 'i wanna beat my own
score' 'i wanna do more this month' (J5)
15:40 < Nushio> I agree with stickster, it should be just for fun
15:41 < ricky> skvidal mentioned 508 compliance a wihle back - I'd be
pretty curious to see how well a screenreader works with all that
javascript.
15:41 < mizmo> it would be cool to put a spotlight on productive people
every week (lmacken)
15:41 < Nushio> lmacken: in the fedora weekly news, perchance?
15:41 < lmacken> Nushio: that's exactly what I said :)
15:41 < mizmo> for each domain you could get a listing of who achieved
what badges in that domain (J5)
15:41 < Nushio> :)
15:41 < mizmo> ubuntu does lists of people, gentoo does as well, most
active contribs / commiters etc (lmacken, J5)
15:42 < gnokii> u mean people behind?
15:42 < mizmo> let's not argue too much about points, we can always
adjust as necessary, if we make it clear 500 points you don't become a
fedora board member hehe (spot)
15:42 < mizmo> it won't work that way (spot)
15:42 < Nushio> My suggestion for showcases is to only have "this week's
top earners" or something similar
15:43 < mizmo> we don't want to script meritocracy 
15:43 < Nushio> newcomers would see someone with 10000000 points, and
would be somewhat discouraged by the system
15:43 < mizmo> Nushio: would you not break them out by domain?
15:43 < mizmo> two important distinctions - point system for actions,
and badges. they could be tied in together but they don't have to be (eg
you could get a badge for simply attending an event)
15:43 < mizmo> (spot)
15:43 < mizmo> you could gift ppl thank you badges (J5)
15:43 < Nushio> mizmo: I never said not to break them by domain, I
simply said that the public score charts should be generated weekly
15:44 < mizmo> Nushio: so it'd be more, how may points they earned this
week, not all-time
15:44 < mizmo> Nushio: everyone seems to agree
15:44 < Nushio> mizmo: exactly, picture this, you see someone with 100
points, and you have none
15:44 -!- Jaime1 [n=jtorres(a)fw01.cmbrmaks.akamai.com] has left #moksha
[]
15:44 < Nushio> you think you might beat him
15:44 < mizmo> we all just wanna play a game (stickster)
15:44 < Nushio> yet you see someone with 10,000,000 points, and you make
a mental note that there's no point in trying 
15:44 < mmcgrath> make sure to talk with gdk and max about their
experience with merit related awards / recognitions
15:45 < skvidal> mizmo: not and idea - but something for later:
http://skvidal.fedorapeople.org/misc/fcomm-zoom-fonts-overlap.png
15:45 < mizmo> heffer: brought up your point, we're thinking about
integrating transifex and the auto-suggestion idea is a good one
15:45 < mizmo> we're moving on from framework discussion to individual
app discussion
15:46 < mizmo> we want a cleaner integration with transifex, and maybe
dedicated translation apps - present people with strings and allow them
to translate (spot)
15:46 < stickster> mmcgrath: That problem was entirely due to a
non-transparent selection process, no community input into its creation,
etc.
15:46 < stickster> What we're talking about is a system where the
community could add their own badges and other collectibles (all of
which are virtual gifts)
15:46 < skvidal> why not just submit random strings to
translate.google.com
15:46 < ricky> Context makes something like reCAPTCHA for translations
kind of impossible
15:46 < mizmo> something similar to how recaptcha is done - presents you
a random string when people have to type in a captcha - to translate and
you feed it in (J5)
15:47 < mizmo> skvidal: do you know of other sites that operate at that
zoom level though? there is a point where css simply cannot handle it
15:47 < skvidal> mizmo: yes, lots of sites operate properly there - it
was a requirement of site redesigns when I worked at duke
15:47 < Nushio> mizmo: maybe use smaller fonts, or skvidal, try changing
font size in firefox ?
15:47  * ricky usually tests zooming three times up/down when making a
page
15:47 < mizmo> we should make a transifex captcha widget, detect
person's native language, provide them with a string that needs to be
translated (lmacken)
15:48 < ricky> fedoraproject.org should hopefully be able to take three
levels of zoom
15:48 < skvidal> Nushio: the font size zooming is an example of normal
font size for a friend of mine who has a common kind of macular
degeneration
15:48 < mizmo> skvidal: ah okay. one problem here is the fedora.css and
fedora-community css tend to fight each other sometimes, i've noticed it
a lot with those left nav buttons
15:48 < ricky> It helps that I often view webpages zoomed in a lot
myself :-)
15:48 -!- relayer370 [n=relayer(a)71.39.154.25] has joined #moksha
15:48 < mmcgrath> stickster: do we have any reason to believe that such
a process would beneift or hinder the community or are we trying it to
find out?
15:48 < mizmo> next application on the list is a brainstorming
application
15:48 < Nushio> skvidal: oh, right, zooming, I thought it was a screen
resolution problem :/
15:48 < skvidal> Nushio: no - ctrl-+ 2 or 3 times
15:48 < mizmo> lmacken implemented a brainstorming applicatoin at the
last fudcon boston, we could integrate that (lmacken)
15:49 < mizmo> jef speleta has been interested in brainstorming, he's
written some apps to correlate voter statistics, would be valuate to
have a way to ask questions / answer questions / throw out ideas and let
people comment & rate them (lmacken)
15:49 < mizmo> skvidal: that's my bad thanks for bringing it up
15:49 < skvidal> mizmo: np
15:50 < stickster> mmcgrath: In part this is a discovery process, but
the benefit of providing an element of entertainment to what otherwise
is purely productive work is well-documented in many studies.
15:50 < Nushio> the voting system would be useful, I've wondered several
times how many use X package, but have refrained from polling the usual
groups
15:50 < heffer> there are several brainstorm techniques out there which
probably could be made into an app
15:50 < mizmo> would be nice to have a free-form forum, where people can
tag questoins as being part of a faq and tag the best answer (J5)
15:51 < heffer> kinda like Yahoo Answers
15:51 < Nushio> heffer: or StackOverflow http://stackoverflow.com/
15:52 < mizmo> Nushio - maybe we could break that into something
finer-grained, 'package love' eg people could say if they love a package
or hate it or are neutral... give it stars maybe (thesixtyone does
something like this for songs)
15:52 < J5> ya, but more of being able to move a question and best
answer into a faq to get rid of the noise
15:52 < mizmo> Nushio: (that idea is from spot)
15:52 < Nushio> mizmo: like ubuntu's packager program?
15:52 < mizmo> Nushio: cool we'll put that down
15:52 < heffer> okay. got to go. see you
15:52 < mizmo> thakns heffer
15:52 < mizmo> !!
15:52 < mizmo> you gave us some good ideas
15:52 < J5> heffer: thanks for your input
15:52 < J5> you get a trophy
15:52 -!- indradg__ [n=indradg(a)59.93.167.57] has joined #moksha
15:53 < Nushio> mizmo: integrate with packagekit, or that webpackagekit
that's been in talks for a while
15:53 < skvidal> J5: but the princess is in another caste
15:53 < skvidal> err castle
15:53 < skvidal> (hell, she's probably in another caste, too)
15:53 < mizmo> Nushio: ohh that's a great idea
15:53 < heffer> yay ;)
15:54 < mizmo> infrastructure could be made easier with live monitoring
15:54 -!- susmit_ [n=susmit(a)59.93.221.147] has joined #moksha
15:54 < mizmo> next topic: SIG-specific applications
15:54 -!- heffer [n=felix@fedora/heffer] has quit "Connection reset by
Fedora 10"
15:54 < mizmo> each sig could have its own display page
15:54  * ricky agrees with the logging thing - we did try sending logs
over the network for a while, but not much luck with that approach :-/
15:54 < mizmo> have a list of actionable items
15:54 < mizmo> communication channels
15:54 < mizmo> tracking peoples status
15:54 < mizmo> watching teams
15:54 < mizmo> watching tickets
15:54 < mizmo> customizing page
15:54 < mizmo> group statistics / group health meter
15:54 < mizmo> group events
15:55 < mizmo> you could get a badge for each team you're part of
15:56 < mizmo> could have signup system for fudcons, people could say
when they arrive, flights etc instead of using wiki (J5)
15:56 < mizmo> and we could do badge printouts, add what teams people
are part of on their fudcon badges (J5)
15:57 < mizmo> bringing the team idea into the real world (J5)
15:57 < Nushio> J5: +1 to badge printouts
15:57 < mizmo> next app: bug dashboard
15:57 < mizmo> per user / per sig / per bug dashboards
15:57 < mizmo> right now we only have per package bug dashboards, would
be nice to have cross-package dashboards
15:57 < mizmo> integration with trac tickets is another idea
15:58 < mizmo> organize bugs based on what they're filed against, let
people check off what they did (J5)
15:58 < mizmo> next app: package group stacks
15:59 < mizmo> ability to create groups of packages on the fly, to build
entire stacks at once and to watch groups of packages
15:59 < mizmo> some of this we'll need changes to enable overrides on
the fly (right now it's not possible to kick off build chunks, have to
get a buildroot override for each one)
15:59 < mizmo> if we had automation for overrides, could check acl and
let you do it 
16:00 < mizmo> would be cool if it let you build stacks locally...
client tools (J5)
16:00 < mizmo> if you run a koji instance, we know about your koji
instance (J5)
16:00 < mizmo> custom repos / scratch builds dumps in fedora people
space (spot)
16:01 < mizmo> workflow management for new pkgs & pkg reviews... you
have to search for your package and upload to a site, nobody knows where
they should upload it... if i'm a new packager do i have space somewhere
to do this? would be nice to have safe scratchbuild somewhere and it
automatically delivers the URL into the bug report for the package
review submission (J5)
16:01 < mizmo> similar to ubuntu ppa builds (spot)
16:02 < Nushio> a lot of packagers use their fedorapeople account system
16:02 < mizmo> let's not push too hard on people to build locally (spot)
16:02 < stickster> Nushio: Yes, I certainly do
16:02 < mizmo> exactly, so this system should use that as the default
space i think... this application would let you build your package in
koji, put it into your fedora people account, and generate a repo for it
(spot)  Nushio ^^
16:02 < ricky> Although a lot of packagers don't have fedorapeople
accounts when they submit their first package
16:03 < J5> first packages should be done on a dedicated build machine
and placed there
16:03 < stickster> ricky: It would be cool if we routed through that
process in that case
16:03 < ricky> They do have the ability to generate a koji cert and do
scratch builds, but those builds get cleaned up regularly
16:03 < skvidal> spot: we can do a mergerepos to refer to the pkgs in
kojipkgs and not copy them down to fedorapeople, for example
16:05 < J5> ricky: as part of the workflow system we could have them
cleaned up at the end of the workflow or when the workflow is considered
orphaned
16:05  * ricky isn't too familiar with the koji scratch build stuff -
dgilmore might be a good person to ask about that
16:05 < mizmo> want to make it easy to get package into fedora rather
than spawn 5 side-repos (spot)
16:06 < mizmo> next app: fedora features - tracking features for the
next fedora release, let people comment on them, provide updates, eg,
give feedback on features
16:06 < mizmo> right now we track % complete, but that's just a random
engineer-madeup number (lmacken)
16:06 < mizmo> would be good to define as feature as a list of things to
get done, as you check them off we could automagically determine a
percentage complete (lmacken)
16:06 < Nushio> fedora features should be moved outside the wiki, me
thinks
16:06 < mizmo> and then also calculate a percentage complete for the
entire release across features (lmacken)
16:07 < mizmo> next app: fedora calendar
16:07 < mizmo> a centralized calendar to track events and meetings in
fedora
16:07 < mizmo> you want to be able to go back and have a timeline, this
is a different way of displaying it (stickster)
16:07 -!- kishan [n=kishan(a)117.99.184.157] has quit Remote closed the
connection
16:07 < ricky> That's susmit by the way
16:07 < mizmo> publictest15/calendar
16:08 < mizmo> we should be working with susmit on this
16:08 < mizmo> i dont know how we'll integrate php but we'll touch base
with him (lmacken)
16:08 < mizmo> zikula / cms is a good place to bring together these
one-off needs, modules that exist in zikula for doing these types of
things (stickster)
16:08 < mizmo> we know the codebase is strong and secure (stickster)
16:08 < mizmo> does it have an external api? (j5)
16:08 < mizmo> we can always embed as iframe but would rather integrate
via api (lmacken)
16:09 < mizmo> would be great if we could publish small one-off events,
like i'm just going alone to a LUG to talk about fedora (spot)
16:09 < mizmo> tradeoff between fedora commnunity being a personal
calendar app vs just for fedora (lmacken)
16:09 < mizmo> people are going to want to put private evnets in there,
we should keep that in mind (spot)
16:10 < mizmo> we should integrate wih other public calendar sources
(spot)
16:10 < mizmo> i want sig events to show up in member calendar
automagically (spot)
16:10 < mizmo> then you'll get a calendar list per sig and you could
check them off if you want to see those events right now or not (J5)
16:10 < mizmo> next app: application browser
16:10 < mizmo> this is a project called 'amber'
16:10 < mizmo> it's like a webstore for packages, you click on a button
on the webpage and it installs
16:11 < mizmo> some of this work got done then the project got frozen
for a while
16:11 < mizmo> there's another person looking into it, forget his name,
but hopefully we can get picked back up (lmacken)
16:11 < mizmo> he has TG expreience so hopefully we can get integrated
nicely
16:12 < mizmo> front page of sourceforge is something i'd like to see
for this app, author might be willing to open source for us but says
it's probably too customied to be useful (lmacken)
16:12 < mizmo> next app: upstream monitoring
16:12 < mizmo> being able to track upstream changes... fever did this,
that's died (spot)
16:12 < mizmo> other projects have tried to pick this up. on a
per-package page and on a per-maintainer page would be great (spot)
16:12 -!- surkum [n=admin(a)123.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has
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16:12 < mizmo> would be nice to see all your packages on one page and
get an idea of how off-sync you are with your upstreams (spot)
16:13 < mizmo> upstreams like gnome right now have something called
pulse... (J5)
16:13 -!- surkum [n=admin(a)123.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has quit
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16:13 < mizmo> if upstreams do stuff like this it will help us (J5)
16:13 < J5> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/pulse/web/
16:14 < mizmo> next app: cross-distribution watcher
16:14  * Nushio likes the These people deserve a beer section of pulse
16:14 -!- surkum [n=admin(a)123.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has
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16:14 < mizmo> per-package, have a mapping what that package is across
other distros, analyzing patches across distros to see what different
distros are patching and what they're not
16:14 < mizmo> oswatershed.org does something like this now
16:15 < mizmo> don't want to take this in too negative a direction or
dilute our message
16:15 < mizmo> next app: lowering barrier for entry / not really an app
but an idea
16:15 < mizmo> lowering barrier for developing new applications in
fedora community
16:15 < mizmo> we want a developer handbook
16:15 < mizmo> quickstart templates for apps
16:15 < mizmo> and a style guide
16:15 < mizmo> so its easy to get new apps in 
16:15 < mizmo> and sandbox them
16:16 < mizmo> next item: integrating with fedora hosted
16:16 < mizmo> - integrating with trac
16:16 < mizmo> - integrating on a per-package basis for packages whose
upstreams are fedorahosted
16:17 < ricky> lmacken: Oh?  Is that being used to generate
fedorahosted.org?
16:17 < mizmo> - we need a nice interface for this
16:17 < ricky> thekad might be a good person to talk to about getting
the build script to use that code :-)
16:17 < ricky> Otherwise, we could be getting the same data using two
methods
16:17 < lmacken> ricky: nope
16:17 < ricky> (Kind of a side thing - I'll get him in touch with
you :-))
16:17 < lmacken> ricky: my implementation was too hackish, according to
toshio, so i think he threw it in a branch :)
16:18 < lmacken> it involved BeautifulSoup ;)
16:18 < ricky> Haha
16:18 < lmacken> I think i scraped fp.o
16:18 < lmacken> fh.o
16:18 < mizmo> would also like ability to let package maintainers
manually add and store info for package upstream in fedora community
(J5)
16:18 < ricky> Heh, never mind about that then :-)
16:18 < mizmo> gnome has a file that stores that data we should do
something similar (J5)
16:18 < ricky> Hopefully the recent changes to fedorahosted.org doesn't
break all of that
16:18 < mizmo> next app: integration with fedora wiki
16:18 < ricky> Oh yeah, I think GNOME uses something called DOAP for
that
16:19 < mizmo> point to user's wiki user pages / watched pages / groups
<=> wiki homes
16:19 < mizmo> next item: patches - per package have a display for
patches
16:19 < mizmo> should consider seriously for 2.0
16:19 < mizmo> next item: ohloh integration
16:19 < mizmo> next item: package wishlist management - let people add
packages they want in to the wishlist
16:19 < mizmo> next item: create-a-new-package workflow, help people add
a new package, could tie to wishlist
16:19 < mizmo> next item: better package pushing
16:20 < mizmo> wanted this to be right for 1.0, for 2.0 bodhi-koji
integration will be tighter (lmacken)
16:20 < mizmo> next item: ambassadors application
16:20 < mizmo> a lot of applicatoins there that they could use. also
want an ambassador view as a default view choice
16:20 < mizmo> next item: improved search
16:20 < mizmo> we know we need to work on this, the search we have works
well if you know the package name but theres a lot of areas we want to
work on improving - people search
16:20 < mizmo> cross-search... search across different apps
16:21 < mizmo> if i search for a package, i get the people associated
with that package ranked in some way (J5) 
16:21 < mizmo> if i search for a package ,i'd like to get info if it's
in fedora hosted, provide that link (J5)
16:21 < mizmo> searching bugs, wikis, trac (lmacken)
16:21 < mizmo> ill be playing with some search solutions this week,
rails-based lucene-driven app with json api (lmacken)
16:22 < mizmo> zeitgeist stuff in gnome, rdf info about objects can be
cached and it can automagicaly make assocaitions between objects (J5)
16:22 < mizmo> a lot of other search categorizers... do a search on a
cateogry... we shold be more ontological - you search for something it
finds in main category but links to all the other related info and can
gather what's most important between them (J5)
16:23 < mizmo> we have people vs packages now. gets quickly annoying
when you're searching for people and the people results is scrolled off
the screen. we should be more intelligent about what the person is
searching for (J5)
16:23 < mizmo> maybe have google-like tags where you can search for
people:name (J5)
16:23 < mizmo> then have more specific advanced search thing, you could
be stepped through and say you just want to search people (J5)
16:24 < mizmo> maybe could customize default search behavior (J5)
16:24 < mizmo> tags could help search along (spot)
16:24 < skvidal> package tags are happening from maploin
16:24 < skvidal> in GSoC
16:24 < mizmo> all-encompassing ontology tags linked and related
(lmacken)
16:24 < mizmo> could tag wiki pages and they would show up accordingly
in search (J5)
16:25 < skvidal> toshio is the mentor of that
16:25 < skvidal> yes
16:25 < lmacken> excellent
16:25 < skvidal> all packagedb-based
16:25 < mizmo> next item: keyword linking in package commit messages
16:25 < mizmo> auto link to bugs, tickets, wiki pages etc
16:25 < mizmo> would be in event system, we'd monitor those messages and
automatically add links in (lmacken)
16:26 < mizmo> next item: localization application
16:26 < mizmo> we discussed this earlier, will integrate with earlier
discussion
16:26 < mizmo> next item: package hitlist
16:26 < mizmo> packages that are easy, packages that are hard
16:27 < mizmo> next item: planet fedora filtering
16:27 < mizmo> we'd want to consider haivng users tagged for language
(spot)
16:28 < skvidal> I did write that comment
16:28 < skvidal> :)
16:28 < mizmo> next item: where is fedora app
16:28 < mizmo> tracking contributors coordinates
16:28 < mizmo> creating maps
16:28 < mizmo> next item: package monitoring & notification
16:29 < mizmo> idea here is that anaconda keeps breaking, because
network manager or dbus changes. we could have an infratructure to track
when these depended-on packages were rebuilt to let the anaconda people
know as soon as a new NM or dbus is built
16:29 < mizmo> (spot)
16:29 < mizmo> next item: fedora talk integration
16:29 < mizmo> easily create podcasts with others
16:29 < mizmo> manage recordings
16:29 < mizmo> set up conference calls
16:30 < mizmo> there is going ot be a fad in october to work on voice
conferencing (stickster)
16:30 < mizmo> integrate with sigs... sig homepage could flash message
'meetng going on right now, click here to connect on fedora talk' (J5)
16:30 < mizmo> way to notify stats of call, how many people are on (J5)
16:31 < mizmo> fedora talk used a lot for program schedule meetings,
docs uses quite a bit, marketing (stickster)
16:31 < mizmo> great for recording sessions too (stickster)
16:32 < mizmo> next item: file-sharing application
16:33 < mizmo> like design team group folder on fedora people / version
control
16:33 < stickster> It would be nice to see "Here are file updates that
happened today" (mizmo)
16:33 < stickster> Worry is that it becomes a dumping ground (spot)
16:34 < Nushio> use git/svn ?
16:34 < mizmo> next item: spins application
16:34 < mizmo> monitor spins, track changes
16:34 < ricky> fedorapeople.org has been pretty successful with not
having much crap on it, although I think fedorapeople.org does the file
sharing thing fine as is
16:34 < mizmo> ricky: no version control is a main problem
16:35 < mizmo> ricky: and we keep sotmping on each other
16:35 < ricky> Oh, then you're looking at more of a VCS, vs. a file
sharing thing
16:35 < mizmo> ricky: it's impossible to monitor how much space each
person is using and which files have been updated when etc
16:35 < mizmo> ricky: sort of
16:35 < mizmo> ricky: but artist workflow friendly :)
16:35 < Nushio> mizmo: there's an svn-nautilus integration plugin
16:36 < mizmo> idea from skvidal was merging data from different fedora
community instances
16:36 < ricky> Hm, that does sound like a hole that needs to be illed
16:36 < ricky> **filled
16:36 < Nushio> you could just create a repo for the folder, and
update/commit buttons appear on nautilus
16:36 < mizmo> does anyone in here have additionl applicatoin ideas?
16:36 < mizmo> Nushio: problem is svn requires a server, we can't run an
svn server in our fedora people space :(
16:36 < mizmo> Nushio: does fedora hosted offer svn?
16:36 < Nushio> fedorahosted doesn't provide an svn?
16:36  * ricky agrees that svn would probably be a good solution for
this
16:36 < ricky> And fedorahosted.org does provide SVN repos :-)
16:37 < Nushio> problem solved!
16:37 < mizmo> Nushio: sweet ill try it
16:37 < ricky> Is svn relatively artist-friendly?
16:37 < mizmo> ricky: ehh any vcs is not but if theres nautilus
integration mebbe it'll work
16:37 < Nushio> ricky: once the artists learn the ropes, yes it is
16:37 < mizmo> svn definitely easier than git for artists :)
16:37 < ricky> Ah, cool
16:38 < ricky> Yeah, git wouldn't make as much sense for something like
design due to having to clone the entire repo + history :-)
16:38 < mizmo> in addition to the bug dashboard, something that would
call out bugs that haven't been triaged to get them attention
(stickster)
16:39 < mizmo> any way to check to see if bug has keyword of 'triaged'
so we can flag bugs that haven't been triage? we could do this and show
an icon  (lmacken)
16:39 < Nushio> mizmo: re: svn on nautilus, package name is gnubversion
16:39 -!- susmit_ [n=susmit(a)59.93.221.147] has left #moksha ["Leaving"]
16:39 < mizmo> thanks Nushio!!
16:39 < mizmo> would be nice for people who signup as triagers, if they
get a heads-up display calling out untriaged bugs for the applications
they indicate they're familiar with (stickster)
16:40 < mizmo> good mentoring opportunity (stickster)
16:40 < Nushio> mizmo: it does lack a "history" button though, afaik, i
can't check file history/changes, just update and commit
16:40 < mizmo> Nushio: oh that kind of sucks
16:40 < mizmo> better than what we have now though!
16:41 < Nushio> mizmo: history could be provided via fedorahosted's
web-ui
16:41 < mizmo> improved user details - what badges / trpohies earned,
what packages they own, their blog, give them kudos (spot)
16:41 < Nushio> not a perfect solution, but it sorta works
16:41 < mizmo> event stream of user's activity (J5)
16:41 < mizmo> view their custom dashboards (lmacken)
16:42  * ricky sees http://code.google.com/p/nautilussvn/ but it doesn't
seem to be in fedora yet
16:42 < mizmo> Nushio: absolutely,better than what we have now
16:42 < mizmo> any other ideas?
16:42 < mizmo> next steps - we'll take this list, look at it
objectively, try to figure out which ideas we can accomplish in our next
major milestone, and develop plans to get there (spot)
16:43 < Nushio> ricky: i'll look into it and will try to package it this
week
16:43 < mizmo> the people on this project, volunteers and otherwise,
maybe we don't decide to do one of these apps. this doesn't mean we dont
want to see it done. if someone volunteers to write it we'll absolutely
encourage them and add it in
16:43 < mizmo> (spot)
16:43 < mizmo> once we've gotten a list of apps we'll work on, we'll
develop a timeline for 2.0, and work with mo to develop mockups for how
it'll look and work (spot)
16:43 < mizmo> as in 1.0 we'll implement to match the mockups (spot)
16:43 < ricky> :-D
16:44 < mizmo> we'll also have regular meetings and we'll do them in
#fedora-meeting for future meetings and we'll use fedora talk, we
encourage you to listen in and be involved in those meetings (spot)
16:44 < mizmo> we used fedora talk for our 1.0 meetings, we don't think
anyone dialed in, but we'll continue doing it (spot)
16:44 < mizmo> we'll let you know when we start those up again (spot)
16:44 < mizmo> thanks everyone for taking the time to help us
brainstorm, we've gotten some really great ideas
16:44 < mizmo> thanks
16:44 -!- mizmo changed the topic of #moksha to:
http://moksha.fedorahosted.org || Demo: http://bit.ly/RICf