Request: please consider clarifying the project's position on Spins

[Máirín Duffy]

On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 02:57 +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 12/05/2010 01:40 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > I posed a question in the last board meeting that I'll re-pose here:
> >
> > Are we, Fedora, in the business of:
> >
> > - #1 Showcasing all the various free software desktops available -
> > making it easy to switch desktops
> 
> Amongst other things that's what I thought but can you explain to me why 
> you draw your line at desktops?

I draw my line at desktops because it's the desktops fighting to be
considered equals. The electronics lab and security spin as far as I'm
aware have never asked for this. 

> Does not your view apply to other applications as well such as 
> music/video players and various other programs?
> 
> > OR
> >
> > - #2 Building a coherent, usable operating system from selections of the
> > best free software has to offer such that free software can reach a
> > wider audience?
> >
> 
> Why are you making the distinction of #1 and #2?

I'm making the distinction because these are the two mindsets driving
the argument here. You can believe in both, but you probably think
primarily of one over the other. Since you know I'm coming from POV #2
now think about what the selection of 4 different desktops on the
download page means for me, for example, when I'm trying to simplify
things for users and already have to deal with complexities like
architecture and live vs non-live and dvd vs USB vs CD.

> Are you implying here that KDE LXDE XFCE etc are not coherent solutions 
> and these things cant coexists?

No I am not at all. I really don't care which one it is, just that there
is one primary desktop so users who don't know or care what a desktop
environment is don't have to take a class or read a tutorial just in
order to know what to download.
> 
> > I really care very passionately about #2, which is why I do silly things
> > like volunteer with the Girl Scouts and teach them how to use Fedora. To
> > my great dismay I've had people from clubhouse #1 tell me 14-year-old
> > girls have no business using Linux. It's that kind of attitude that
> > makes me feel we have to fight even harder for #2.
> 
> How does nr.1 tell 14 ( or people of all ages ) year old girls ( or boys 
> ) not to use Linux?

> The only thing nr.1 does is allow them the freedom to choose which last 
> time I check was part of one of our four foundation.

You always have the freedom to choose, but making a choice on every
single little thing is a burden, not a freedom. 

> > What's the point of working on free software if it can't help the people
> > who need it? The people who don't know what a DE is and really don't
> > care as they'd rather spend their time writing their resume or creating
> > new songs with Fedora?
> 
> Overall this is an very interesting perspective and differs quite a bit 
> from mine.
> 
> I've notice through out all my life that people have a tendency to use 
> what ever suits their need in all aspect of their life and in that also 
> applies to IT.
> 
> People will always use whatever suits their needs not mine thus I do not 
> try impose my needs nor do I try to speculate what their needs might be 
> or force them to use something that they might not like nor do I not 
> introduce them to all the alternatives that exist I always try to 
> encourage them to explore as much as possible until they find the right 
> tool the right solution that gets whatever they are after done in as 
> much comfortable way for them so when people are seeking my advice 
> regarding desktops I always tell them to try all the desktop solution we 
> have to offer because at the end of the day I know that it is them that 
> will be using that computer with that desktop everyday not me.

Yes but you shouldn't have to read a manual or a how-to just to try out
Fedora. If we pose Fedora in such a way that only users of a certain
technical knowledge/prowess can get up and running with it efficiently,
we're basically shutting them out of using it. It's much easier to get
them up and running on a default set of things and if they want to
explore later, of course they can, but if you have to learn too much
just to get started it's overwhelming and we'll lose a lot of people.

~m