*countable infinities only

Orcan Ogetbil oget.fedora at gmail.com
Tue Jun 12 23:25:10 UTC 2012

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Peter Jones wrote:
> On 06/12/2012 08:10 AM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> Due to my respect to your request, I thought about it for nearly 72
>> hours. I still stand behind what I said: People who are incapable of
>> switching a BIOS setting, which might involve doing a simple web
>> search beforehand, should better not touch any electric equipment.
>> Fellow contributors assert that such people are not in Fedora's target
>> base, as per the statement of the Board. Of course they are right. I
>> am just claiming the set of BIOS-capable people is not limited to
>> target Fedora user base, but extends to all electric equipment users.
> I find it pretty hard to believe this position. Through my role working
> on our bootloaders at Red Hat, I've seen a fair amount of pre-production
> hardware, and I've spent a lot of time looking at hardware that implements
> Secure Boot, and how it does so. I've seen the firmware interfaces so far.
> They've gotten a lot better than when they initially started shipping, but
> there are still plenty of them where /I/ can't figure out what the firmware
> options mean.
> There are still plenty of other firmware options for other features that
> have
> some acronym that only a subject matter expert will ever figure out what
> mean.
> This is not merely common, but it's true on nearly all machines I've ever
> encountered. On all but the most painfully limiting firmwares, there is an
> option the name of which I can't decode, much less establish a meaning for.
> A meeting of the minds between the user and the firmware developer is
> clearly
> not a high priority, and is basically never achieved.

If the fimware frontend is designed to hide the secureboot settings,
it would be hard to believe that it is doing this with good
intentions. Yet in such a case, the electric equipment-capable user
has various options to figure his way out, such as
- Read the manual
- Do a quick online search (given the user has access without the
defective product)
- Contact the vendor
- Replace the product
rendering most of your points invalid.

> It's pretty disingenuous to think that our users are going to be able to
> figure this out. Even if we provide the best instructions we can, there are
> going to be users - reasonably smart people who are using computers and
> Fedora to solve real problems - who aren't going to be able to figure out
> how what we say maps to their firmware. It's pretty hurtful to say they
> shouldn't be using computers, much less /all/ electric equipment.
> Just because somebody doesn't have a high level of technical expertise
> doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't use the tools available to accomplish
> their goals, and it's pretty rude to treat people this way. Above that,
> when you make statements that denigrate a plurality of human beings, it
> becomes very difficult to take your point in any way seriously.

Take it as natural selection, or a way to cure some sociological
cancer. I am sorry, I am incapable of promoting unintelligence.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts though.

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