*countable infinities only

[Jon Ciesla]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Jon Ciesla <limburgher at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>> On 05/31/2012 02:52 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> On 05/31/2012 02:17 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:57 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:48 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:34 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:19 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:10 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could be any of a thousand ways to implement this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it checks the BIOS to determine whether some SecureBoot flag is set.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While it pains me to argue with someone on my side— you're incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The compromised system would just intercept and emulate or patch out that test.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then what's missing here is a way for booted OS's to test themselves for integrity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe some sort of cryptographic signature stored in the hardware?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ducks>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -J
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> </sarcasm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just not dictated by one monopoly.
>>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, no.  But you see the problem.  I'm divided on the solution
>>>>>>>>>>> myself, but I've yet to see one I feel better about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -J
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This game of cat and mouse with the blackhats is not going to end until we have some type of read-only partitions where
>>>>>>>>>> known good code resides.
>>>>>>>>> We have that, ISO9660.  Known good == known good to whom?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nah, can't be iso.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has to be HDD partitions whose ro/rw state is controlled by hardware.
>>>>>>> Which brings us back to the issue of how the hardware knows what to
>>>>>>> trust for that ro/rw state.
>>>>>> The hardware is under control of the user.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At some point the user has to know what they consider trusted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During installation from a known good installation source: DVD, network, whatever, the user enables the install to write
>>>>>> on the partition by actively pressing a hardware button that allows the write.   After the installation is finished the
>>>>>> user switches it back to read-only through pressing the hardware button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The user now has a known good read-only installation to boot from.
>>>>> Is there an implementation of this existing today for HDD?
>>>> Not yet.  But HDD technology is changing rapidly.  Just look at hybrid drives, SSD.
>>>>
>>>> No reason they could not add this capability.
>>> Right.  But it's not there now, which is my point.
>>
>> Actually it seems the forensic firms have been doing this for a while:
>>
>> http://www.digitalintelligence.com/forensicwriteblockers.php
>>
>> Their interfaces toggle the write wire to the drive.
>
> But that's not currently available COTS hardware.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>   Because
>>>>> otherwise with existing technology, AFAIK, that limits your media
>>>>> choices for root fs medium to CD/DVD-R, Floppy, Zip/Jaz disc, or some
>>>>> models of USB flash drive.
>>>> Yes, all these would currently support what I'm suggesting.
>>> Actually, if you're willing to flip a lot of switches, you could
>>> probably make your / a raid5 of floppies, but the performance would be
>>> suboptimal.
>>>
>>> -J
>>>
>>
>> Ok, now you're just being silly.
>
> Absolutely.

And to clarify, I was being silly to illustrate that what we're after
cannot be practically done with currently available hardware.

-J

> -J
>
>> .
>>
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>
>
>
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------------------------------------------------
in your fear, seek only peace
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-d. bowie