man-db without cache update (no cron or systemd *.timer)

Jan Chaloupka jchaloup at
Thu Oct 16 17:10:52 UTC 2014

On 10/16/2014 04:49 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 10/16/2014 01:30 PM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:35:13AM +0200, Jan Chaloupka wrote:
>>> Forwarding Colin's response
>>> =================================
>>> On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 09:47:41AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
>>>> Once upon a time, Jan Chaloupka <jchaloup at> said:
>>>>> there has been a discussion about if we need cache for man-db for 
>>>>> users
>>>>> which use man pages or update system only from time to time and thus
>>>>> don't need to update cache every day. man-db as it is now depends on
>>>>> systemd which brings another set of packages. The use case is "I just
>>>>> want to read man page. So I install man which on the other hand 
>>>>> download
>>>>> another set of packages. I want to read man page and it downloads 
>>>>> systemd.".
>>> Have you considered installing the timer file, but without the
>>> dependency?  If systemd is there, it could use it, otherwise not.  That
>>> would make a whole lot more sense to me than creating another package,
>>> and would be my recommendation.
>> Nope, this is not going to work. If there's no dependency on systemd
>> then during installation rpm can install man-db before systemd and
>> and the timer will not get enabled. Currently it is not possible to
>> install systemd units without a dependency on systemd.
> Right which in turn will lead up to the scenario I tried to explain 
> thousand times with FESCO that we would end up having components 
> depend on systemd when they should not and with absolutely no benefit 
> of and worse outcome as well as more frustrating aministrator/enduser 
> experience than continuing to use cron for those jobs as well as 
> obfuscating the work of those working on cleaning up the core/baseOS.
> If it would have made sense to migrate every cron job to timer units I 
> would have written and filed a feature proposal then and there which 
> would achieve exactly that but the fact is that systemd timers and 
> cronie are two component that complement each others short comings and 
> systemd has quite few of those shortcomings compared to cron.
> Unfortunately people only seem to see the outcome for their own 
> component or their ( cloud ) product instead of thinking about the whole.

crontabs itself depends on systemd so what is the diffrence then?
mock -r fedora-21-x86_64 --init
mock -r fedora-21-x86_64 --install crontabs
   crontabs.noarch 0:1.11-9.20130830git.fc21

Dependency Installed:
   acl.x86_64 0:2.2.52-7.fc21
   cronie.x86_64 0:1.4.12-1.fc21
   cronie-anacron.x86_64 0:1.4.12-1.fc21
   cryptsetup-libs.x86_64 0:1.6.6-1.fc21
   dbus.x86_64 1:1.8.6-3.fc21
   dbus-libs.x86_64 1:1.8.6-3.fc21
   device-mapper.x86_64 0:1.02.90-1.fc21
   device-mapper-libs.x86_64 0:1.02.90-1.fc21
   fipscheck.x86_64 0:1.4.1-7.fc21
   fipscheck-lib.x86_64 0:1.4.1-7.fc21
   kmod.x86_64 0:18-3.fc21
   kmod-libs.x86_64 0:18-3.fc21
   libseccomp.x86_64 0:2.1.1-5.fc21
   qrencode-libs.x86_64 0:3.4.2-4.fc21
   systemd.x86_64 0:215-19.fc21

> If people are so inclined and anxious to drop that cron job then they 
> should spend their time and energy and write that rpm trigger(s) for 
> man in accordance with what Peter Schiffer said as opposed to try to 
> implement this with timer units and or workaround the FPG.

Which will led to a lot of dependencies on man-db because man-db's cache 
has to be updated.



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