Plan for tomorrow's irc-support-sig meeting (2012-01-19)

Thu Jan 19 17:59:53 UTC 2012

=============================================
#fedora-meeting: IRC Support SIG (2012-01-19)
=============================================

Meeting started by nirik at 17:01:03 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2012-01-19/irc-support-sig.2012-01-19-17.01.log.html

Meeting summary
---------------
* init process  (nirik, 17:01:03)

* Week in review  (nirik, 17:04:03)
  * LINK: http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
    (nirik, 17:04:03)

* Tickets  (nirik, 17:05:25)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1   (nirik,
    17:05:25)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Social_Channel_FAQ is
    clear about it  (EvilBob, 17:07:10)
  * AGREED: will not kick/ban for support questions in social for now,
    but will still ask people to take support to the right venue. Will
    look at revising the social channel page.  (nirik, 17:22:37)

* Process Improvements/creation  (nirik, 17:31:47)
  * AGREED: Irc support sig works with #fedora, #fedora-social,
    #fedora-unregistered, #fedora-ops, and any other sig or group with a
    #fedora channel that wishes to be part of the sig.  (nirik,
    17:40:47)

* Fudcon and actions there  (nirik, 17:48:04)

* Open Floor  (nirik, 17:54:33)

Meeting ended at 17:59:17 UTC.

Action Items
------------

Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)

People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* nirik (111)
* EvilBob (70)
* Sonar_Gal (40)
* dcr226 (36)
* Sonar_Guy (30)
* nb_ (21)
* Khaytsus (12)
* hiemanshu (12)
* tatica (11)
* jsmith (8)
* zodbot (6)
* Southern_Gentlem (6)
* zcat (2)
* satellit_ (2)
* averi (2)
--
17:01:03 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2012-01-19)
17:01:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 19 17:01:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:01:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:01:03 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:01:03 <nirik> #topic init process
17:01:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:01:09 <nirik> who all is around for a meeting?
17:01:18 * nb_ is
17:01:49 * Southern_Gentlem 
17:02:12 * Khaytsus 
17:02:20 * EvilBob 
17:02:34 * dcr226 
17:03:55 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead then?
17:04:03 <nirik> #topic Week in review
17:04:03 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
17:04:19 * Sonar_Guy 
17:04:24 * Sonar_Gal 
17:04:28 <nirik> Anything anyone would like to point out from the previous week?
17:05:20 <nirik> seemed a pretty normal week on #fedora.
17:05:25 <nirik> #topic Tickets
17:05:25 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
17:05:44 <nirik> 2 tickets
17:05:48 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/94
17:05:50 <zodbot> nirik: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
17:06:05 <nirik> ha. nice
17:06:19 <Khaytsus> Bot is protesting SOPA
17:06:21 <EvilBob> Ticket 94 is about me kicking a user for getting support in -social
17:06:30 <nirik> user was kicked for support questions in social.
17:06:44 * jsmith shows up late
17:06:51 <EvilBob> I stand by my decision, the user has been talked to, warned and kicked in the past for this
17:06:53 <nirik> from the ticket "recommendation: I would like a clear, precise definition for what we can and cannot do in -social."
17:06:59 <dcr226> nirik, I noticed that
17:07:04 <Sonar_Gal> Wasn't even him that asked the support question he was answering
17:07:10 <EvilBob> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Social_Channel_FAQ is clear about it
17:07:33 <nirik> from that page: "fedora-social is a social channel, not a support one. Please don't ask support related questions here, instead use the approprate support channel for your question."
17:07:40 <EvilBob> asking, answering, same thing really
17:07:57 <nirik> I think our hard ass stance here is causing ill will... should we loosen up?
17:08:16 <Sonar_Guy> I believe that needs to be updated to define clear boundaries as to what can and will be open for discussion in #fedora-social!
17:08:18 <Sonar_Gal> No it's EvilBob 's Channel let him do as he wishes
17:08:44 <nb_> I think support questions should go to #fedora but I see no need to kick and ban for it
17:08:44 <Sonar_Gal> Kicking and banning though for a java question is stupid though
17:08:46 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: sure... we should update it....
17:08:47 <dcr226> Sonar_Guy, yeah..I think thats what the ticket-filer is looking for also
17:08:54 <nb_> Just ask people to take it to fedora
17:09:06 <EvilBob> We all ready discussed this a few months ago, no support in -social, looser in #fedora
17:09:28 <EvilBob> nb_: How many times do you ask and/or ignore it?
17:09:30 <Sonar_Guy> EvilBob: I agree but that does not define the boundaries
17:09:37 <nirik> nb_: one of the folks involved has been told that many times... but I think they just naturally talk about supporty type stuff...
17:09:40 <Sonar_Gal> Why looser in #fedora if you can't ask a support question in -social then no looseness needed in #fedora
17:10:00 <Sonar_Guy> define boundaries, point the user there, then see what action is needed after that.
17:10:19 <nirik> currently we have: "fedora-social is a social channel, not a support one. Please don't ask support related questions here, instead use the approprate support channel for your question."
17:10:24 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: One of the way it is supposed to be looser in #fedora is for topics that boarder "not Fedora related"
17:10:28 <nirik> how would we like to amend that to make it more clear?
17:10:28 <Khaytsus> erm, kinda looks like something reasonable to discuss in Social to me, random Java question.
17:11:07 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Or a Java channel? Or a mysql channel, he needs help with that a lot.
17:11:19 <Southern_Gentlem> i would have agreed with kicking the asker but kicking the one answering without warning them i think went over the top
17:11:35 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: I believe we add more definition as to what is support, but also cover what other topics are off limit such as religion and politics
17:11:56 <EvilBob> I don't understand how dozens of asking the user, warning the user is out of line before a kick and short ban
17:11:59 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: true, this is a snapshot.  Does he ask Java questions a lot?  Dunno.
17:12:02 <dcr226> religion and politics it out for -social? ;-(
17:12:19 <jsmith> dcr226: It's a Freenode thing
17:12:28 <Sonar_Guy> EvilBob: I would have no problem with it if you kicked the asker, you kicked the one answering the question
17:12:35 <nirik> take a look at the page...
17:12:38 <EvilBob> Sonar_Guy: check the log
17:12:45 <EvilBob> Sonar_Guy: Both were kicked
17:12:53 <Sonar_Guy> why both?
17:12:57 <EvilBob> Sonar_Guy: only the more frequent offender was banned
17:13:03 <EvilBob> asking, answering, same thing really
17:13:22 <Sonar_Guy> lol, if you say so!
17:13:39 * jsmith doesn't see it as quite the same thing
17:13:50 <Sonar_Guy> troll or feeding the troll, same thing really
17:14:02 <nirik> proposal1: don't kick/ban for support related questions, just point people to the right place, then ignore.
17:14:14 <Sonar_Guy> I agree nirik
17:14:17 <EvilBob> jsmith the answer giver also knows the channel policy
17:14:37 <nb_> nirik: I agree
17:14:39 <jsmith> EvilBob: To my untrained eye -- it looks like has just trying to be helpful
17:14:40 <EvilBob> nirik: and when they continue and then do the same thing again the next day?
17:14:41 <Sonar_Gal> And he also avoids the channel if you are around now
17:14:43 <dcr226> nirik, +1...unless it gets ridiculous
17:14:47 <jsmith> I'd hate to punish people for being helpful
17:14:54 <jsmith> nirik: +1 from me
17:15:08 <EvilBob> jsmith: Again, big picturem it has happend over and over especially with those two
17:15:11 * nirik has answered support questions in social before... by reflex before I realized the channel. ;)
17:15:24 <hiemanshu> nirik: +1 from me too
17:15:26 <nirik> EvilBob: ignore again? start a discussion on something social to drown them out?
17:15:31 <zcat> +1 ... support in social to the same level as offtopic in #fedora, depending on who's there being cranky
17:15:41 <Sonar_Gal> I see no problem with a question or 2 once in a while especially from a regular in the room
17:15:48 <Sonar_Gal> nirik, +1
17:15:52 <EvilBob> SO drop the support issue totally if there is no repercussions for the behavior
17:16:00 <EvilBob> then we have two support channels
17:16:21 <nirik> EvilBob: we should still ask people to take it to support channels...
17:16:28 <Sonar_Gal> No point them to other options but don't kick unless it keeps going after telling them to go elsewhere
17:16:30 <EvilBob> nirik: But if they don't?
17:16:36 <nirik> if they ignore, well, I bet people stop answering them when they keep bringing it up.
17:16:39 <Khaytsus> There was no warn, I think that's the point
17:16:50 <Sonar_Guy> EvilBob: then learn tolerance and get up and walk away
17:16:57 <EvilBob> and they do the same thing again tomorrow and next week
17:16:58 <Sonar_Gal> even quiet them for the 15 minutes
17:16:58 <Khaytsus> Can we move on to get to the real issue this week?
17:16:59 <tatica> that's why /ignore exist
17:17:05 <dcr226> Khaytsus, lol
17:18:01 <nirik> so, do we have consensus here?
17:18:03 <EvilBob> If breaking the rule is OK then the rule need not exist
17:18:09 <dcr226> tatica, realistically, EvilBob can't /ignore folks on social, it would kinda defeat the point of having an op there in the first place
17:18:21 <zcat> EvilBob, heh. not the military. lots of gray.
17:18:22 <nirik> I'm not sure it's even phrased as a rule
17:18:27 <nb_> dcr226: there are more ops
17:18:28 <nirik> currently we have: "fedora-social is a social channel, not a support one. Please don't ask support related questions here, instead use the approprate support channel for your question."
17:18:43 <dcr226> nb_, ops can't really ignore people period
17:18:49 <Sonar_Guy> I think we have reached a consensus, remove the rule and pass them to #fedora and allow discussion of support in #fedora-social
17:18:53 <nirik> note the please and note the note that it's not in the section about being removed from channel.
17:19:03 <tatica> !
17:19:07 <nb_> dcr226: well true.  They generally shouldn't
17:19:23 <Sonar_Gal> tatica, Just talk we are more relaxed
17:19:29 <dcr226> nb_, if a troll finds out he's on /ignore from the ops...he can run wild
17:19:38 <tatica> just remember that your area of interest is not the only in this channel. There is people from all teams in here and anyone can take the lead and gui them in other channels
17:19:39 <nb_> dcr226: true
17:19:42 * nirik nods. You can mentally ignore tho. ;)
17:19:44 <EvilBob> nirik: there is no such section that I see
17:19:52 <tatica> just try to be nice
17:20:02 <tatica> we have plenty of resources... so USE them
17:20:06 <nirik> EvilBob: the freenode guidelines apply part...where it says: "You may be removed from the channel if you don't follow this policy."
17:20:10 <hiemanshu> tatica: not everyone listens to nice people
17:20:19 <tatica> that's why we are a bunch
17:20:37 <EvilBob> nirik: the same note could be or probably should have been added to each and every secion in that case
17:20:55 <hiemanshu> tatica: we have good cop and bad cop, just that sometimes bad cop is faster than good cop
17:21:21 <tatica> I don't see it that way
17:21:29 <nirik> yeah, the page could use cleanup. How about we just agree to not kicking/banning for support anymore, and I can send a page cleanup diff to the list for more discussion?
17:21:41 <tatica> this is a community, sometimes we need to be a bit hard, yes... but there are no roles to play when help is needed
17:21:53 <EvilBob> It is worth noting that the user has been very diligent from what I noticed about taking his support questions to #fedora and even helping in there now.
17:21:53 <tatica> if you're too busy or not willing to help, let others do it
17:22:18 <dcr226> nirik, could potentially be used as an antagonistic tool
17:22:37 <nirik> #agreed will not kick/ban for support questions in social for now, but will still ask people to take support to the right venue. Will look at revising the social channel page.
17:22:41 <nirik> dcr226: which?
17:22:49 <nirik> next ticket?
17:22:51 <dcr226> nirik, "what the f*ck is wrong with my f*ck*ng fedora installations.answer me, answer me, answer me"
17:23:08 <nirik> dcr226: sure.
17:23:13 <dcr226> just saying...not being able to kick people for asking for support on -social, is open to abuse
17:23:16 <nirik> anything could. bacon could be a DOS
17:23:25 <nirik> dcr226: not _JUST_ for support.
17:24:15 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  i look at this as offtopic in #fedora  looking at the log there was nothing else going on when that happened
17:24:20 <EvilBob> nirik: How about a compromise and only the use of +q for support questions?
17:24:39 <EvilBob> nirik: AFTER asking
17:24:44 <nirik> EvilBob: -1. Are they really that disruptive there?
17:24:51 <Sonar_Guy> -1
17:25:02 <EvilBob> nirik: I have seen this users mysql support go on for hours
17:25:15 <Sonar_Guy> EvilBob: then get up and walk away!
17:25:19 <Khaytsus> Can we just say "Be awesome to everyone"?
17:25:44 <Sonar_Gal> I see no problems with +q after asking them to take support to another channel and pointing them where they need to go
17:25:45 <nirik> Khaytsus: we could, but then someone would ask what awesome was, then another would wonder what everyone was... then we would need to define 'be'. ;)
17:26:01 <Sonar_Gal> However I also understand how overwhelming #fedora can be
17:26:17 <Khaytsus> 2b||!2b
17:26:25 <EvilBob> It amazes me how other that have complained about support questions in there are now against the policy now that it involved one of their friends
17:26:28 <nirik> any other thoughts on the proposal?
17:26:32 <tatica> once again.... there are a lot of places where to ask for help...
17:26:38 <tatica> #fedora isn't the best of those
17:26:57 <nirik> tatica: absolutely.
17:27:04 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: Agreed it can be, but there are other channels that apply to most questions.
17:27:28 <Sonar_Gal> Correct then point them to those channels and of they ask again +q
17:27:41 <dcr226> ^^ sounds right to me
17:27:53 <nirik> how about we try the 'no kick/ban for just support questions, try asking nicely' and then revisit next week or when a problem that +q would have solved has appeared?
17:27:59 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: That is perfectly reasonable to me
17:28:05 <dcr226> nirik, Sonar_Gal +1
17:28:13 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1 to check back later on this issue!
17:28:15 <nb_> nirik: I agree
17:28:26 <nirik> the problem is that people will wonder what 'support question' is... thats the hard part.
17:28:29 <EvilBob> I even admit that I was quick to act in this case
17:28:36 <EvilBob> I should have said something first
17:29:06 * satellit_ put support links in header on #fedora? so the user can click on them
17:29:08 <EvilBob> nirik: I think it is a judgement call and we can explain our side
17:29:25 <EvilBob> satellit_: Few read the topic if ever
17:29:33 <satellit_> ok
17:29:33 <nirik> ok, anything more on this ticket? shall we go on to next?
17:29:48 <Sonar_Guy> I think we move on!
17:29:50 <Southern_Gentlem> satellit_,  topic is too small for that and they dont read whats their as is
17:29:55 <Southern_Gentlem> next
17:30:05 <Southern_Gentlem> there
17:30:11 <EvilBob> nirik: I will comment, appologise for being quick to kick and note the policy change if that is OK?
17:30:26 <EvilBob> I'll then close it
17:30:26 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/95
17:30:30 <zodbot> nirik: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
17:30:43 <nirik> EvilBob: please do.
17:30:50 <nirik> .title http://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/95
17:30:52 <zodbot> nirik: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
17:30:56 <nirik> huh.
17:31:01 * Khaytsus feeds zodbot moar bacon
17:31:01 * nirik will look at that after the meeting.
17:31:19 <nirik> anyhow, this is kudos to [R] and fenrus02
17:31:26 <nirik> good work folks.
17:31:47 <nirik> #topic Process Improvements/creation
17:32:08 <nirik> so, we have had our issues of late... and I think many of them stem from lack of clear process...
17:32:31 <EvilBob> One thing we need to work on that we have ignored for far too long is getting new ops.
17:32:33 <nirik> I started a container wiki page at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_support_sig
17:32:53 <nirik> this was a place to dump ideas or thoughts... then we could merge them into some kind of policy.
17:33:16 <EvilBob> More ops help all of us by reducing "work load" and providing more eyes.
17:33:16 <nirik> EvilBob: I agree. Fresh ideas and energy would help us out a lot I think.
17:33:57 <Sonar_Guy> However I think we need to define our process prior to adding new eyes into the mix
17:34:04 <nb_> I have volunteered for #fedora-social but I think we are blocking on figuring out how to add ops
17:34:07 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: +1
17:34:14 <EvilBob> We are very lacking overnight in the US.
17:34:34 <EvilBob> nb_: And I will nominate you once we have a process as I mentioned to you.
17:34:47 <nb_> EvilBob: yeah
17:34:48 <nirik> so, my first question is: what channel(s) does the sig deal with? is it all fedora channels that want? is it a few ? is it end user facing?
17:35:06 <EvilBob> nb_: I think you would be a valid "trial run" on any new process for that to help us work out bugs
17:35:16 <nirik> a) #fedora, #fedora-social, #fedora-unregistered, #fedora-ops only?
17:35:21 <dcr226> nirik, all channels that _want_ the sig's help?
17:35:22 <hiemanshu> nirik: all channels that ask for it
17:35:27 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: I believe it should cover all as it is not the #fedora #fedora-social Support SIG
17:35:30 * dcr226 ^5s hiemanshu
17:35:30 <nirik> dcr226: yeah, thats a posibility too.
17:35:32 <nb_> nirik: I think a) unless other channels request
17:35:49 <Sonar_Gal> The channel I believe should be open to all fedora op's that want to be in there.  I have seen times where people bounce room to room with spam and that would be the place to let people know what is going on
17:35:50 * hiemanshu ^5s dcr226 back
17:35:51 <nb_> Normally the other channels have been left up to them who they want upped
17:35:52 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: some channels have their own processes tho...
17:35:53 <Sonar_Guy> It should cover all #fedora-* channels as exclusion is what brought all of this to a head!
17:35:53 <EvilBob> the sig title is about support
17:36:24 <EvilBob> irc-support-sig
17:36:28 <Sonar_Gal> the sig should be for any channels that want to become involved
17:36:35 <EvilBob> It's not about developers and sysadmins
17:36:40 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: those that have their own process, thats fine.  For the others the IRC Support SIG is the place to be
17:36:44 <nirik> for example, #fedora-kernel has policies where kernel dev folks are opped...
17:36:54 <dcr226> nirik, in which case, they wouldn't want our help
17:36:57 <nirik> right.
17:37:06 <dcr226> nirik, and if they did, they'd have to adjust their policies to suit ours
17:37:18 <EvilBob> I think those that want our help that are support(end user facing) is what we do.
17:37:29 <Sonar_Gal> but channels like -qa may want to be involved as a lot of the same people are in the same channels
17:37:29 <Sonar_Guy> support is subjective
17:37:30 <nirik> proposal: Irc support sig works with #fedora, #fedora-social, #fedora-unregistered, #fedora-ops, and any other sig or group with a #fedora channel that wishes to be part of the sig?
17:37:33 <nb_> I think this sig is for the 4 channels that nirik mentioned and any others that want our help
17:37:41 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1
17:37:44 <nb_> nirik: +q
17:37:47 <jsmith> nirik: +1
17:37:49 <EvilBob> I know that pingou being part of the channel as of late has been very helpful
17:37:53 <nb_> nirik: +1
17:37:55 <Sonar_Gal> +1
17:37:55 <dcr226> EvilBob, I've always read it as "supporting the IRC network for fedora channels...possibly I was wrong"
17:37:59 <nirik> so, we would then ask sigs/groups if they want us. or if they come to us. ;)
17:38:02 <hiemanshu> nirik: +1
17:38:08 <dcr226> nirik, +1
17:38:33 <dcr226> EvilBob, yeah...pingou is cool...would be good if he would help out on #fedora more
17:38:35 <EvilBob> nirik: It has to be the group not just one op from the group?
17:38:44 <nirik> EvilBob: good question...
17:38:50 <dcr226> its the group
17:38:56 <nirik> most channels have a sig or the like...
17:38:56 <dcr226> it can't be the other way round
17:39:05 <EvilBob> Most SIG have steering committees and such
17:39:07 <Sonar_Guy> I agree with it being the group, not just a singe op
17:39:08 <nirik> so, I would say the group, rather than just one person.
17:39:10 <hiemanshu> one op from the group is being bad on the group, ask the group, let them decide, and we'll help em out
17:39:20 <Sonar_Gal> How many speak the language well also.  Pingou speaks English well and has asked for help
17:39:34 <dcr226> if #fedora-flamethrowers want the support-sig to help out, provide fedbot and suchlike...then they should implement the sig's rules.
17:39:48 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: Agreed, someone that does not have English is going to be hard to fit in.
17:39:51 <Sonar_Gal> dcr226, yes
17:39:56 <nirik> ok.
17:40:18 <EvilBob> Not sure how to exclude them, there are translation services available
17:40:22 <Sonar_Gal> EvilBob, However if one or 2 speak well no reason they can not be in -op's for help when needed
17:40:23 <dcr226> nirik, if then...its useful for someone from -flamethrowers to be resident in -ops, thats a different issue...and invite one if you will
17:40:37 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: Yeah, I agree
17:40:41 <dcr226> EvilBob, I'm not sure how legal it is to exclude people based on their native language
17:40:47 <nirik> #agreed Irc support sig works with #fedora, #fedora-social, #fedora-unregistered, #fedora-ops, and any other sig or group with a #fedora channel that wishes to be part of the sig.
17:40:58 <Sonar_Gal> nirik, +1
17:41:06 <EvilBob> nirik: +1
17:41:11 <hiemanshu> nirik: +1
17:41:21 <nirik> ok, so that brings us to: who should be a voting member? in the past I have tried to avoid having lots of votes, but it seems like thats part of confusion.
17:41:30 <nirik> there's a number of ideas on the wiki.
17:41:46 * nirik notes we may decide to discuss this more on list or revisit next week.
17:41:56 <EvilBob> nirik: I think those ideas need to be fleshed out more and maybe addressed as we move forward also
17:41:59 <dcr226> nirik, totally...its going to get very difficult
17:42:22 <nirik> the thing I would like to avoid is ballot stuffing/disruption from #fedora-i-hate-the-world. ;)
17:42:30 <dcr226> nirik, also, I'm not sure that many are in the same mindset as me, that actually want to remove voting rights from non-active members
17:42:37 <Sonar_Gal> Thing with the meetings is not all can attend so voting should go out on the mailing list for 1 week
17:42:47 <Sonar_Guy> Sonar_Gal: +1
17:42:50 <nirik> dcr226: I've resisted that in the past, but honestly, I don't care much anymore.
17:43:05 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: agreed. or ticket.
17:43:09 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: I agree on "big things" little things, not as much
17:43:15 <dcr226> Sonar_Gal, aye +1
17:43:23 <Sonar_Gal> And I think only ops can vote or come up with some process for voting in a seperate channel on the topics at hand
17:43:28 <dcr226> yeah, doesn't matter for "channel topic" I suspect
17:43:29 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: Maybe a ticket would be better in that case
17:43:51 <EvilBob> I believe we have done this in the past for some items but it has fallen by the wayside
17:43:54 <nirik> so, shall we take voting discussion to the list over the next week?
17:44:08 <nirik> ie, everyone pimp their fav method and we discuss next week?
17:44:18 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1
17:44:22 <Sonar_Gal> nirik, +1
17:44:29 <EvilBob> nirik: +1
17:44:34 <jsmith> +1 for me
17:44:35 <nirik> because I see problems with many of the current proposed ones. Perhaps someone will be inspired. ;)
17:44:47 <EvilBob> Oh... wait we are voting with out taking it to the list... Just an example
17:44:53 <dcr226> Hah
17:44:54 <Sonar_Gal> yes
17:44:59 <nirik> yep.
17:45:18 <nirik> and how can we vote on a voting method when we don't have a formal voting method defined
17:45:26 * nirik goes into an inifinite loop and blows up
17:45:32 <EvilBob> perhaps those involved should make a decision on if an issue is big enough to take to the list?
17:45:40 * dcr226 asks nickserv for the handle "nirik"
17:46:01 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, I had an idea that any voting member (whoever they are) could ask for a vote on something.
17:46:05 <EvilBob> "involved" = those in the meeting provided enough are present
17:46:10 <Sonar_Gal> maybe something like an op's only vote only mailing list
17:46:11 <nirik> if everyone agrees, no need to vote
17:46:32 <nirik> ie, consensus first, if that fails, vote
17:46:43 <EvilBob> nirik: Yeah we can flesh that out
17:47:14 <nirik> anyhow, anything more on the wiki page or process we want to discuss now?
17:47:15 <EvilBob> WIKI and list for this, if we go to the list to talk ideas, lets try to stick to one idea per thread
17:47:28 <EvilBob> Errr
17:47:37 <EvilBob> " s/idea/subject
17:47:42 <nirik> sure.
17:47:47 <nb_> nirik: the letter?
17:47:49 <EvilBob> No need to mess voting with getting new ops
17:48:04 <nirik> #topic Fudcon and actions there
17:48:11 <EvilBob> a thread on each will prevent forking and subjects getting lost
17:48:32 <Sonar_Guy> I move to throw out the meeting and letter at this point due to a lack of process!
17:48:33 <nirik> So, there was a group of folks at fudcon that met in person and drafted a letter... in retrospect, this was not done in a transparent way.
17:48:52 <nirik> Sonar_Guy: we don't have a process for that. ;)
17:48:56 * nirik kids
17:48:59 <dcr226> :)
17:49:00 <Sonar_Guy> lol
17:49:31 <nirik> anyhow, I'm fine with saying the letter/actions were from those folks and not from the sig.
17:49:48 <nirik> it can still tell us we need to improve, and I think we all agree
17:49:55 <Khaytsus> Do we have anything in our SIG stuff that says all such decisions must be made in a way to sllow interested parties to participate?
17:49:58 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: as am I, but I still think we need to agree to move on at this point.
17:50:42 <nirik> Khaytsus: not really. it's all kinda ad-hoc... but we should be transparent and inclusive, IMHO.
17:50:52 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1
17:51:09 <nb_> +1
17:51:14 <nirik> I'd like to ask all those in #fedora-ops or the like to call people out when they see something thats bad behavior. If not at the time, then when you notice it.
17:51:16 <Khaytsus> Yes, probably still need to figure out what is "ops only" but should be in a meeting here or to the op's mailing list
17:51:26 <nirik> Just telling someone "hey, this is bad, don't do that" really would help us.
17:51:39 <nirik> instead of simmering and festering.
17:51:59 <dcr226> Sonar_Guy, nirik +1 (not sure if my vote counts on this one)
17:52:12 <Sonar_Gal> Sorry I have been a babysitter to long if adults that are op's can't act grown up then they need to be punished
17:52:20 <nirik> dcr226: propose a voting group thats just 'dcr226'
17:52:23 <EvilBob> Being constructive helps, just chastising a friend in the channel, #fedora generally, is not always helpful.
17:52:27 <dcr226> nirik, LOL
17:52:47 <hiemanshu> Sonar_Guy, nirik +1
17:52:47 <nirik> Sonar_Gal: sometimes they don't realize they are doing it... or we have the wrong idea.
17:52:59 <Sonar_Gal> nirik, Sorry I don't think that
17:53:51 <Khaytsus> Discuss issue in person, great.  Unilaterally decide for everyone, no.
17:54:01 <hiemanshu> Khaytsus: +1
17:54:33 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
17:54:56 <hiemanshu> You cant take a decision for a group of people, sort it out without taking it to the group is fine, but if it goes to the group, then well everyone should take part, or atleast be given a chance to take part
17:55:16 <nirik> yeah, but it's hard when you don't know who's in the group...
17:55:33 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor?
17:55:34 <nb_> Yeah...
17:56:01 <Sonar_Gal> That's fine but after this meeting EvilBob will be back on ignore for me so everyone else can handle him
17:56:11 <nb_> (not to open floor I was agreeing to what nirik said
17:56:11 <nirik> Sonar_Gal: ok.
17:56:20 <Sonar_Gal> I don't want to talk to him after he insulted my son Sunday night on -social
17:56:30 <EvilBob> I appolgised for that
17:56:31 <nirik> he did appologize
17:56:37 <Sonar_Gal> Not taken
17:56:47 <Sonar_Gal> That was wrong to say in the 1st place
17:56:48 <EvilBob> You have known me for long enough to know it was a joke and a joke only
17:57:05 <nb_> Sonar_Gal: I think he really meant it as a joke.  A really stupid joke.
17:57:12 <EvilBob> Others in the channel that have known me forless time knew it was a joke.
17:57:14 * nirik is sad, but doesn't know if this needs to be in the meeting. Perhaps discuss elsewhere after meeting?
17:57:20 <nb_> I don't think he meant to insult Scotty.
17:57:23 <Sonar_Gal> I don't care That was the lowest you have ever gone
17:57:25 <dcr226> nirik, likely doesn't need to be in the meeting
17:57:31 <hiemanshu> EvilBob: sometimes jokes hurt too
17:57:33 <averi> Sonar_Gal: it happened twice to me, just ignore :)
17:57:54 <Sonar_Gal> Jan 15 17:01:44 <Evil_Sonar_Chick>	sonar_jr, What are you doing
17:57:54 <Sonar_Gal> Jan 15 17:03:46 <EvilBob>	Hookers and Pills
17:57:54 <Sonar_Gal> Jan 15 17:04:37 <Evil_Sonar_Chick>	doubtful since he is with nb and Southern_Gentlem
17:57:54 <Sonar_Gal> Jan 15 17:07:37 <EvilBob>	Oh you are still in Blacksburg? Then it's Methwhores and Moonshine
17:57:54 <Sonar_Gal> Jan 15 17:08:12 <EvilBob>	;)
17:58:00 * nirik will close the meeting in a min if nothing else.
17:58:00 <Sonar_Gal> sorry that is not a joke to me
17:58:57 <averi> Sonar_Gal: it's not, but just ignore, you'll feel better :)
17:59:17 <nirik> #endmeeting
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