FedoraOS Server Platform ( FOSSP )

[Simo Sorce]

On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 22:26 +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> I have come to the conclusion that it is like people within the
> project  
> that have been here for so many years have gotten so used the way of 
> seeing it their way that they dont like to change it, feel
> uncomfortable 
> of changes and they feel no need to change it and many of them are 
> saying we are doing so well now why should we change it?

I think the very fact we are trying to change the process should tell
you people are willing to change and do not think all is working great.

And there are some quite old people in this list, I agree change is
necessary, and I started using Fedora since when it was called
RHL5.0 ...

I think the problem is that if you want radical change at the base you
need to bush them with the baseWG.

>From my part I do want change but going through smooth transitions.

> But if you look at the broader view, an view that I think many people
> in the distribution lack as in step back and look at the Fedora ego
> system in whole, as well as being able to view the larger GNU/Linux
> ego system and the moving bits there the mentality for people for lack
> of better term cant see the bigger picture looks really dangerous for
> us because in reality we are not doing so well far from it actually
> and things are moving at a pace we ( of all people ) have been having
> trouble keeping up with ( much to size and bureaucracy ).
> 
> I'm just going to point out *one* just *one* of the serious issues we 
> are faced with.
> 
> We already have somewhere around 14500 components in the distribution.
> 
> Now the quickest way these days to spot the number of active 
> contributors ( anywhere ) in the communities are badges since as far
> as I know it's an opt out process not opt in with fedmsg ( but I might
> be mistaken ) but at least it shows *active* community members and
> their community activities ( from August ).
> 
> Looking at Koji 1 badge which shows successfully completed a koji
> build we have the staggering number of it being awarded 617 times.
> 
> Dividing the total number of packages with the number of active 
> contributors with that koji badge we get each of them maintaining 23.5
> components!
> 
> Now let's say the average free time an individual has to spend on the 
> project which is I think 2.5 hour and let's be generous here and let's
> say roughly 1 third of that number as in 7 components get a bug report
> per day and let's say it takes each maintainer at least one hour
> ( which should not be that far off ) just looking at that report *if*
> properly reported and if it was a non trivial fix ( let's just go as
> low as a spec file change here ) it takes another hour fixing,
> building  and pushing that fix and the rest he spends answering
> emails, which means he has to dedicate all that time constantly 365
> days to just those 7 components every day!
> 
> As you can quickly see in just this extremely simplified example the 
> math does not add up in the project we *cannot* efficiently maintain
> all those packages  and this is just *one* again *one of the problem
> we are faced with in the distribution just one...

You are assuming all packages need the same level of care, that is
simply not true. I have a package that I haven't touched since I put it
in Fedora, because it is ok as is. It never received a bug report, nor
required rebuilds outside of the mass rebuilds. Maybe I am (was) the
only user. I think we may have a few hundreds if not a few thousands of
packages like that and many more that receive very few bug reports if
any that are better maintained. Of course there are hot ones that
receive a lot of bugs, but the metric you showed is weak and I think
gives a quite distorted picture.
I am not saying there is no problem at all, but it is more nuanced.

> If the above example is not enough to raise alarm with people nothing
> will.

But your solution seem to be: let's throw away a few thousand packages
and rewrite a few thousand others, if you think we are short in manpower
with the current system where do you find the manpower to change a few
thousand base packages to adhere to new standards ?

Simo.
> 
-- 
Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York