Agenda for Env-and-Stacks WG meeting (2014-01-28)

[Marcela Mašláňová]

WG meeting will be at 16:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting on Freenode.

== Topic ==
PRD was approved by FESCo.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Product_Requirements_Document

But need to add comments from the ticket:
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1224

And comments from FESCo meeting:
* There's some disconnect between vision/mission and what the rest is 
actually focusing on ... but each individual item is OK, so +1

And from mailing list:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2014-January/194215.html

jdulaney aka handsome_pirate was missing last few months and didn't vote 
about PRD. Let's discuss who can take over his voting responsibility 
instead of him. I suggest Debi (as program manager, good for scheduling 
all our tasks) or Stano (only representative of Java community in WG).

[Marcela Mašláňová]

On 01/28/2014 02:48 PM, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
>  WG meeting will be at 16:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting on Freenode.
>
>  == Topic ==
>  PRD was approved by FESCo.
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Product_Requirements_Document
>
>  But need to add comments from the ticket:
>  https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1224
>
>  And comments from FESCo meeting:
>  * There's some disconnect between vision/mission and what the rest is
>  actually focusing on ... but each individual item is OK, so +1
>
>  And from mailing list:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2014-January/194215.html
>
>  jdulaney aka handsome_pirate was missing last few months and didn't vote
>  about PRD. Let's discuss who can take over his voting responsibility
>  instead of him. I suggest Debi (as program manager, good for scheduling
>  all our tasks) or Stano (only representative of Java community in WG). 
Debi Rieden (drieden) or Stanislav Ochotnicky (sochotni).

Meeting minutes Env-and-Stacks WG meeting (2014-01-28)

[Marcela Mašláňová]

#fedora-meeting: Env and Stacks (2014-01-28)
Meeting started by mmaslano at 16:05:47 UTC (full logs).

Meeting summary

     modify PRD (mmaslano, 16:08:04)
         commetns from ticket https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1224 
(mmaslano, 16:08:26)
         AGREED: New vision: "The Fedora Environment and Stacks Working 
Group will research and develop new or improved methods of developing, 
testing, packaging and deploying software for the Fedora community." 
(+7,-0,0) (mmaslano, 16:39:35)
         ACTION: bkabrda will write more about devassistant (mmaslano, 
16:44:20)

     jdulaney aka handsome_pirate inactive (mmaslano, 17:00:51)
 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2013-November/00... 
(sochotni, 17:09:07)
         drieden is new voting member (mmaslano, 17:12:13)
         ACTION: mmaslano will change wiki page accordingly (mmaslano, 
17:12:25)



Meeting ended at 17:19:41 UTC (full logs).

Action items

     bkabrda will write more about devassistant
     mmaslano will change wiki page accordingly



Action items, by person

     bkabrda
         bkabrda will write more about devassistant
     mmaslano
         mmaslano will change wiki page accordingly



People present (lines said)

     mmaslano (62)
     sochotni (38)
     samkottler (36)
     tjanez (27)
     hhorak (17)
     drieden (16)
     abadger1999 (13)
     pkovar (7)
     pingou (5)
     zodbot (4)
     bkabrda (0)
     juhp (0)
     handsome_pirate (0)



Generated by MeetBot 0.1.4.

16:05:47 <mmaslano> #startmeeting Env and Stacks  (2014-01-28)
16:05:47 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jan 28 16:05:47 2014 UTC.  The 
chair is mmaslano. Information about MeetBot at 
http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:05:47 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea 
#link #topic.
16:05:52 <mmaslano> #meetingname env-and-stacks
16:05:52 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env-and-stacks'
16:05:59 <mmaslano> #chair abadger1999 pkovar tjanez samkottler bkabrda 
handsome_pirate hhorak juhp
16:05:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 bkabrda handsome_pirate 
hhorak juhp mmaslano pkovar samkottler tjanez
16:06:08 * samkottler is here
16:06:17 <tjanez> Hey!
16:06:59 <hhorak> Hi guys!
16:07:14 <drieden> Hello!
16:07:45 <mmaslano> and with sochotni we are at least five
16:07:48 <mmaslano> so let's start
16:08:04 <mmaslano> #topic modify PRD
16:08:26 <mmaslano> #info commetns from ticket 
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1224
16:08:44 <tjanez> I'm glad notting and sgallagh took time to read the 
PRD and gave their "outside" view on it
16:09:05 <mmaslano> yeah, good to have a review
16:09:28 <tjanez> I suggest we amend Vision & Mission statement first
16:09:35 <mmaslano> okay
16:10:49 <sochotni> generally Stephen gave us a good starting point I'd say
16:11:28 <abadger1999> hola
16:11:41 <sochotni> i.e. "Fedora is the preferred ecosystem of choice 
for new software development to occur in any language and on any framework."
16:11:46 <tjanez> sochotni, +1
16:11:49 <sochotni> abadger1999: morning :-)
16:11:55 <mmaslano> abadger1999: hi
16:12:07 <drieden> sochotni +1
16:12:11 <drieden> abadger1999 Hello
16:12:11 <mmaslano> +1
16:12:17 <hhorak> +1 I like it
16:12:18 <tjanez> I would like to also include the words stack and 
environment
16:12:25 <tjanez> Something like: Fedora is the preferred ecosystem of 
choice for new software development to occur in any language/stack and 
in any framework/environment.
16:12:48 <tjanez> Just don't have an elegant way to put it in.
16:13:13 <sochotni> well the problem with that is that I think stack/env 
can be confusing and I believe vision should be as simple as possible
16:13:30 <sochotni> yeah, maybe a rephrasing somehow would work
16:13:48 <tjanez> Ok, how about: Fedora is the preferred ecosystem of 
choice for new software development to occur in any language and in any 
environment."
16:13:56 <hhorak> tjanez: I'd stay with as simple version as possible, 
even if there is not env&stacks used
16:14:22 <sochotni> hhorak: indeed, that can be mentioned in the mission 
statement
16:16:18 <drieden> hhorak +1
16:16:30 <mmaslano> hhorak: +1
16:16:56 <mmaslano> abadger1999: do you have any comment about improved 
Vision?
16:17:04 <sochotni> also I'd sneak in "deployment" somewhere :-)
16:17:08 <mmaslano> samkottler: ^
16:17:26 <tjanez> Another thought about the environment/framework part, 
should we limit ourselves to open (FOSS) environments/frameworks?
16:17:27 <mmaslano> sochotni: so Vision is still work in progress
16:17:54 <samkottler> +1
16:18:03 <sochotni> mmaslano: I am working on some ideas
16:18:49 <tjanez> sochotni, +1 about deployment
16:19:05 <tjanez> samkottler, +1 to what?
16:19:07 <abadger1999> +0 about deployment.
16:19:37 <sochotni> "Fedora is the preferred platform for new software 
development and deployment of new technologies regardless of their 
implementation language or dependency requirements."
16:19:38 <sochotni> ?
16:19:56 <samkottler> tjanez: deployment
16:20:41 <abadger1999> I personally think we have much further to travel 
to make fedora a good platform for deployment (I feel that lifespan 
until EOL is a huge factor, for instance) but if someone wants to work 
on that I don't object.
16:21:10 <sochotni> abadger1999: doesn't necessarily mean production 
deployment (the way I thought about it)
16:21:26 <abadger1999> tjanez: Re: FOSS... I think atm fedora is 
probably FOSS-only (judging by recent board decision).  Could change i 
nthe future.
16:21:33 <abadger1999> sochotni: k
16:22:12 <tjanez> abadger1999, yea, I followed the board discussions, so 
I guess FOSS is implied :-)
16:22:40 <hhorak> sochotni: I'm not so sure if people can imagine 
something concrete under "dependency requirements", I wouldn't probably. 
What about "..implementation language or application stacks"?
16:24:57 <tjanez> sochotni, I would simplify your proposal to: "Fedora 
is the preferred platform for new software development and its 
deployment in any language and/or application stack."
16:25:50 <sochotni> I am not sure "application stack" is understandable 
enough to most people but I might be wrong
16:26:14 <sochotni> I know it took some time to just define what *we* 
actually mean by that
16:27:31 <tjanez> sochotni, how about "software stack"?
16:27:52 <hhorak> tjanez: I like that and would simplify even "and/or" 
to just "or"
16:27:54 <sochotni> IMO though all of this doesn't belong on the meeting 
like this...
16:28:14 <sochotni> email is much better for these kinds of 
modifications/drafts
16:28:23 <sochotni> or any other non-realtime thing
16:28:42 <mmaslano> so we don't have any proposal :)
16:28:42 <sochotni> usually people need to consider/come up with 
alternatives
16:29:18 <mmaslano> let's speak about Vision on maling list
16:29:30 <sochotni> mmaslano: that was just a suggestion :-)
16:29:41 <mmaslano> what about Mission? Is sgallagh's version acceptable?
16:30:26 <tjanez> I would modify sgallagh's version to include the word 
testing: "The Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group will research 
and develop new or improved methods of packaging, testing and deploying 
software for the Fedora community."
16:30:34 <hhorak> mmaslano: It is for me, but I'd extend "packaging and 
deploying" to "development, packaging and deploying"
16:30:57 <sochotni> so "developing, testing, packaging and deploying" 
then :-)
16:30:58 <mmaslano> hhorak: fine by me
16:31:24 <tjanez> hhorak, +1 on developing
16:31:59 <abadger1999> hhorak: +1
16:32:14 <abadger1999> +1 to both additions
16:33:18 <drieden> +1 to the both additions too.
16:34:20 <hhorak> +1 for the whole statement
16:34:31 <tjanez> #proposal "The Fedora Environment and Stacks Working 
Group will research and develop new or improved methods of developing, 
testing, packaging and deploying software for the Fedora community."
16:34:57 <mmaslano> +1 for the record
16:35:00 <tjanez> +1
16:35:22 <pkovar> +1
16:35:28 <drieden> +1
16:35:52 <abadger1999> +1
16:36:12 <hhorak> +1 ;)
16:37:39 <tjanez> samkottler, will you vote on the proposal?
16:37:50 <samkottler> +1
16:37:55 <samkottler> sorry, on a call at the same time :)
16:38:58 <mmaslano> :(
16:39:15 <tjanez> mmaslano, ?
16:39:35 <mmaslano> #agreed New vision: "The Fedora Environment and 
Stacks Working Group will research and develop new or improved methods 
of developing, testing, packaging and deploying software for the Fedora 
community." (+7,-0,0)
16:39:43 <mmaslano> tjanez: I'm sad for samkottler
16:39:55 * samkottler sad about being on the call, too :-(
16:40:04 <tjanez> mmaslano, ok :-)
16:40:28 <mmaslano> next comment was about too specific bug in koji
16:42:30 <tjanez> mmaslano, yes, we have some pretty specific examples 
in the PRD
16:43:15 <tjanez> I suggest we move them into separate wiki pages when 
we start creating more specific task descriptions / action items
16:43:31 <mmaslano> tjanez: +1
16:43:52 <tjanez> I guess, we needed them (the specific examples) so we 
understood each other when drafting the PRD
16:44:01 <mmaslano> yeah
16:44:09 * tjanez will need to leave in a minute
16:44:09 <mmaslano> so if we move to devassistant...
16:44:11 <abadger1999> tjanez: +1
16:44:20 <mmaslano> #action bkabrda will write more about devassistant
16:45:41 <samkottler> I'm not opposed to directly talking about 
devassistant, but what about adding more info about development tooling 
in general?
16:45:50 <samkottler> slightly OT, but something I've been thinking 
about recently
16:46:18 <mmaslano> samkottler: could be good, do you have other tools 
on your mind?
16:46:30 <mmaslano> samkottler: I was looking at Eclipse for some time, 
but they are doing great
16:46:33 <tjanez> bye guys
16:46:37 <mmaslano> bye
16:46:41 <samkottler> tjanez: cya!
16:46:47 * tjanez will read the minutes later
16:46:54 <abadger1999> bye tjanez
16:47:03 <drieden> bye tjanez
16:47:12 <hhorak> tjanez: bye
16:47:20 <samkottler> mmaslano: I don't have anything directly about 
specific tools, more just saying that there are lots of tools people 
already use
16:47:28 <samkottler> and we should help make them better at a high level
16:47:38 <samkottler> (git, vim, gdb, etc)
16:48:54 <mmaslano> sure, but we "own" devassistant upstream, but what 
about those other tools. Do you sugest analysis of those tools and 
filling bugs?
16:49:49 <samkottler> I'm just suggesting that we mention the other 
tools since they are already adopted
16:50:41 <mmaslano> samkottler: could you add them?
16:50:52 <samkottler> yep, doing it right now
16:51:33 <mmaslano> thanks
16:51:50 <samkottler> what do people think about something like 'The 
Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group will work with the 
maintainers of existing tools to ensure they remain relevant to the 
changing application development landscape'?
16:52:09 <samkottler> existing tools should also include examples like I 
listed above
16:53:18 <mmaslano> samkottler: I'm not willing to promise something, 
what I can't do
16:53:26 <mmaslano> what others think?
16:53:42 <mmaslano> it seems to me it's huge project
16:53:50 <samkottler> mmaslano: s/ensure/help them/
16:54:36 * abadger1999 agrees with mmaslano's sentiment
16:55:23 <samkottler> I do too, but I think it's important that we 
mention tools other than devassistant
16:55:39 <hhorak> mmaslano: I have the same feeling, I can't imagine 
we'll enough time for that. What we could do is to try tell users about 
new things, that are not used so much (I have systemtap probes on my 
mind now for instance)
16:56:21 <drieden> The "work with maintainers of existing tools to 
ensure" seems to huge.  I would change the "work with" to
"coordinate" 
and also the "ensure" to something which implies more of an oversight 
and not a commitment.
16:56:32 <mmaslano> samkottler: we mentioned devassistant because it's 
setting up environment. Otherwise it wouldn't fit
16:58:18 <samkottler> okay, that's fine
16:58:28 <samkottler> we can move on :)
16:59:30 <mmaslano> so it's probably everything to PRD if I didn't miss 
anything
17:00:51 <mmaslano> #topic jdulaney aka handsome_pirate inactive
17:01:16 <mmaslano> did someone see him? I sent him email before 
Christmas, but no reply
17:02:22 <samkottler> I've seen him on IRC, but has he ever been to one 
of our meetings?
17:02:59 <mmaslano> only on first few
17:03:00 <drieden> samkottler I recall him at some of the meetings last 
year.
17:03:17 <mmaslano> anyway he's not very active, so I'd rather give the 
vote to someone else
17:03:18 <pkovar> have not seen him. i do remember him saying he would 
be working on wiki pages. do we still need help with them?
17:03:29 <mmaslano> pkovar: no, I created them ;-)
17:03:34 <samkottler> mmaslano: +1
17:03:36 <pkovar> ah, thank you :-)
17:03:41 <mmaslano> pkovar: I needed space for PRD
17:03:46 <pkovar> right
17:03:51 <mmaslano> pkovar: you can fix czenglish ;-)
17:04:01 <pkovar> will have a look at them
17:04:14 <mmaslano> so I proposed drieden as program manager or sochotni 
as representative of Java SIG
17:05:13 <mmaslano> any opinions from the WG? :)
17:05:25 <drieden> mmaslano I am very honored to be nominated.
17:05:27 <samkottler> should we maybe have drieden and sochotni write up 
a little statement about what they want to work on?
17:05:38 <samkottler> or explain to us here even
17:05:38 <mmaslano> samkottler: smart :)
17:05:51 <samkottler> mmaslano: hehe I try :P
17:05:54 <mmaslano> drieden: sochotni: do you have time to do it shortly 
now?
17:06:02 <sochotni> phew :-)
17:06:11 <samkottler> if it's too much pressure now then maybe we can 
have the convo on the list?
17:06:44 <drieden> Sure.  My focus is on the project management aspects 
of the group.
17:06:45 <sochotni> I'd just point to my original email from november 
mostly I guess
17:07:29 <abadger1999> sochotni I've been honored to work with via the 
FPC/java guideline discussions.  drieden I've only known from this group 
but seems to be a good candidate as well.
17:08:06 <drieden> abadger1999 thanks
17:08:45 <drieden> Also, if I'm not chosen, that's okay.  I don't do 
development work anymore, so if you are looking for someone who is still 
technical, I would not be helpful.
17:08:53 <mmaslano> sochotni: so please point to it :)
17:09:01 <sochotni> mmaslano: yeah, was looking...
17:09:07 <sochotni> 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2013-November/00...
17:09:18 * abadger1999 actually thought drieden was already a member as 
listed here: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Toshio/Env_and_Stacks_Governance#Curr...
17:09:21 <sochotni> but there was something else
17:09:29 <sochotni> indeed :-)
17:09:48 <sochotni> but who am I to argue with Marcela :-D
17:09:53 <hhorak> sochotni: did you seek for 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora.next/WG_Nominations ?
17:10:18 <sochotni> hhorak: I had a longer email somewhere..
17:11:03 <sochotni> ah I remember...it didn't go to mailing list because 
there was none at the time
17:11:46 <mmaslano> Last time I tried to picked from every group 
someone. So I'd prefer this time Debi, as someone good in planning 
schedules, doable plans etc.
17:11:56 <sochotni> but generally...I prefer to be in the background 
doing stuff and my meeting skills are sketchy :-)
17:11:59 <mmaslano> but I'm hoping sochotni will still do the 
automatization he mentioned ;-)
17:12:04 <sochotni> yeah
17:12:05 <mmaslano> great ;-)
17:12:13 <mmaslano> #info drieden is new voting member
17:12:25 <mmaslano> #action mmaslano will change wiki page accordingly
17:13:07 <drieden> Thank you
17:13:07 <sochotni> I'll have pingou here in a week and hopefully we'll 
get some work done on review tooling
17:13:30 <sochotni> drieden: use your powers for good :-)
17:13:43 <mmaslano> #proposal Open Floor
17:13:48 <hhorak> I guess both drieden and sochotni have already proofed 
us they care about env & stacks ;)
17:13:57 <samkottler> drieden: welcome :D
17:14:17 <drieden> sochotni I will do my best :)
17:14:25 <sochotni> time for me to get stuff to eat :-)
17:14:35 <drieden> samkottler Thank you.
17:14:53 <hhorak> So, who from this group could I meet on Fosdem this week?
17:15:13 <pkovar> here here
17:15:24 * samkottler will be there
17:15:32 <samkottler> mmaslano: you gonna be at fosdem?
17:15:36 <mmaslano> no
17:15:42 <samkottler> mmaslano: :C
17:15:46 <mmaslano> bkabrda will be there
17:15:49 <samkottler> I'll be at devconf, too
17:15:51 <sochotni> and hhorak as well
17:15:51 <hhorak> pkovar: great, the bus will be one big party.. :-D
17:16:42 <pkovar> hhorak: i think so :-)
17:16:50 <sochotni> samkottler: there will be a lot of people @ devconf 
it seems
17:17:10 <samkottler> sochotni: indeed
17:17:15 * samkottler is excited for czech beer
17:17:21 <sochotni> samkottler: :-)
17:17:51 <pingou> sochotni: I see my agenda is filling up :)
17:17:53 <sochotni> samkottler: flying in on Thursday?
17:18:06 <sochotni> pingou: yup :-P
17:18:07 <pingou> hhorak: I'll be at fosdem as well
17:18:34 <samkottler> sochotni: yep, I'm flying from brussels to prague 
and then taking the bus
17:18:39 <hhorak> pingou: samkottler: great, I hope we'll meet in 
person. pingou, will you be on devconf as well?
17:18:47 <pingou> hhorak: yes
17:19:00 <hhorak> pingou: great ;)
17:19:00 <pingou> samkottler: which day?
17:19:07 <samkottler> pingou: the 6th
17:19:22 <samkottler> pingou: psh, but we've already met
17:19:23 <mmaslano> I'll close the meeting and you can continue ;-)
17:19:30 <hhorak> mmaslano: sure ;)
17:19:34 * mmaslano envy Brusel
17:19:36 <pingou> samkottler: same day Ralph and I arrive
17:19:41 <mmaslano> #endmeeting

Meeting minutes Env-and-Stacks WG meeting (2014-01-28)

[Bohuslav Kabrda]

>           ACTION: bkabrda will write more about devassistant
> (mmaslano,
>  16:44:20) 
I tried to rewrite the DevAssistant part to be more high-level and to also include
information on what we should do with DevAssistant. Hope it's enough.

Slavek.