Request: please consider clarifying the project's position on Spins

Sun Dec 5 12:00:47 UTC 2010

----- "Máirín Duffy" <duffy at fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-12-04 at 21:09 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> 
> > Mo, this is a false dichotomy.  I also believe that it's unfair. 
> To
> > claim that the GNOME-centric vision is the only vision that could
> > *possibly* help users smacks of hubris, to me.
> 
> No, it's unfair to say I said something I never said. Where did I
> mention GNOME anywhere? Where does that word appear anywhere in what
> I
> wrote?
> 
> I really don't care which desktop it is, just that it's one and the
> user
> doesn't have to make a choice.
> > 
> > The question is, how do we treat everyone else?  How do we treat
> > people who have a vision that is not the GNOME-centric vision of
> the
> > world? 
> 
> I don't want users to have to make a DE choice, just as I don't
> expect
> my auto mechanic to ask me which oil filter I want (I don't care.
> Make
> my car run.)

There are people who don't care what oil filter they want, they even don't
know there's some filter in the car, there are people who cares - for some
reasons (price, quality, even brand) - the auto mechanic should be able to
help both groups. But with some preference - and I agree with you. 

This brings us back to the discussion - what's Fedora? What's Fedora Project 
about? Without clear meaning of these this discussion is contra-productive
and it will never end. Target audience discussion ended completely unclear,
nothing actually happened. At least twice a year we have this discussion 
(it's probably not discussion anymore).

> 
> If folks want to work on desktops that are not the default, THERE IS
> NO
> PROBLEM WITH THAT. PLEASE FEEL FREE. PLEASE HAVE FUN.
> 
> But don't confuse the users by making Fedora a choose-your-own
> adventure
> clubhouse type of affair that turns off the very users I'm working my
> butt off at attracting.

-1 :( It's not fair...

> > I think that we should treat them with the respect they are due.  I
> > think we should say "our primary focus is the GNOME Desktop, but
> your
> > work is also very valuable, and to that end, we can promise
> resources
> > X and Y, and even though we can't promise resources Q and Z, we're
> > willing to have conversations about how to grow those resources so
> > that, one day, we can offer them."
> 
> Yes +1

Let's start over - let's find a real solution. And we have to decide -
even the decision would break up Fedora into the small projects. It 
really scares me a lot - it would hurt all projects, Fedora, users,
even our top sponsor (you know which one, I don't want to name it
here, as it would start conspiracy theories ;-) - that employes
a lot of us.  

My (quick) proposal:
- Fedora Project as an umbrella (project, company like)
- produces Fedora Platform - basic set of packages, apps, libraries
  exposed for end user developers, similar set to critical path, see
  MeeGo Core as an example (contains libs all end user UX can be built
  - base OS, libs, UI libs Gtk, Qt, Clutter... etc.) and all end user
  developers know, what's in the platform, what they can use, how,
  stable base
- on top of platform - we can build end user experiences like Server 
  (Platform + server related stuff), usual desktops, special devices
  etc. and market these as a Fedora product by Fedora Project -
  decouple Fedora products from Fedora Project
- but still all Fedora products have to go through Fedora Project QA, 
  relengs, etc. to assure quality and brand. 

I don't offer detailed proposal here - it's just an idea. No release
schedules - take a server for example - you can build Fedora Server 1.0
based on released Fedora Platform 15.

And now Q&A!

Why??? 
- We don't have man power, resources, we have to share them as much as possible!
- We can have nice hyper super cool mega desktop but without good and well
designed base operating system in the basement - it's impossible.
- It' risky to have the only one product in our portfolio, even top one, well
integrated etc. as computer market is changing really very fast and it's 
getting faster and faster and faster. 
- It's Fedora Core again - no it isn't! Platform shouldn't be closed! Yes, 
  it will need some compromise (for some people Gtk and Qt in platform wouldn't
  be acceptable, but for end users developers it's the right way!) 

PS: even this is not my idea at all, I just borrowed it from the car industry -
for example TPCA [1]. They produce Toyota, Citroen and Peugeot in one plant.
Completely same platform, different products, different user experiences.
It's not easy to survive in car industry - sharing = cutting costs, better
offer -> profit ;-)  

PS2: it's my personal view - not any SIG's one, company, group... I work on
several places in Fedora, I use both Gtk and Qt - so I'm that end user devel
who will be happy to see working and rich platform :)

Jaroslav 

[1] http://www.tpca.cz/en/

> ~m
> 
> 
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-- 
Jaroslav Řezník <jreznik at redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

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