output redistribution issues again, was Re: [Fedora-livecd-list] Kadischi: roadmap from Board meeting ?

Tue Apr 18 18:36:42 UTC 2006

Chitlesh,

   Thank you for your answers here.  Unfortunately, I think you have confirmed
what I have suspected all along, but which I thought needed to be spelled out. 
I.e.

***
There is a very limited subset of customizations a kadischi user may make to
their output, and still be 'legally' allowed to redistribute their output.

Examples include- Including forbidden items, like nvidia drivers, mp3 support,
etc. Doing things that are "hateful or stupid" in redhat or fedora's subjective
opinion. 

And I suspect from a 'legal' point of view, basically anything that goes any
distance beyond changing the package selection from purely within the core and
extras repository.  Because the instant you do anything complicated like adding
your own package that hasn't vetted the core/extras quality control inclusion
process, you are releasing a piece of software whose quality will reflect on
the fedora name, due to implicit association.  Certainly if (a) default fedora
boot/background logos/images/trademarks are left in place.  And even to a
lesser extent, if the fedora-logos and anaconda images packages are left in
place (am I missing anything?).
***

I am harping on this, because I think the issue confirms my need (and I think
it would vastly benefit the kadischi user community as well) for a simple post
install script which optionally makes the resulting distribution "clean of any
implied association or sponsorship by redhat or fedora".

I'm hoping such a script isn't too terribly more complicated than rpm -e'ing
fedora-logos and anaconda-images.  A while back I saw all the .svg things in
there, and was worried that it would be hard to replace those with 'dummy'
items , but I tried out inkscape last night, and was truly amazed at how cool
that tool is.

Thanks again Chitlesh.  I think we are well on our way to having a simple
answer well documented, so that for example, an LWN author can know the extent
of things they can modify while elavuating kadischi, and still be allowed to
post their output if they want to (or any other reviewer or individual user of
course).

-jdog

--- Chitlesh GOORAH <chitlesh at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> E.g If I create a livecd with nvidia drivers with Kadischi, Ill break
> the Fedora Policies.
> 
> > "Red Hat does not permit or consent to any use of its trademarks in any
> manner
> > that is likely to cause confusion by implying association with or
> sponsorship
> > by Red Hat"
> >
> > The root of the issue is-
> >
> > If I create output with kadischi, named mylivelinux.iso, which boots using
> the
> > default fedora logos on the graphical boot (and gdm default background, and
> > gnome default background), then would I be in danger of "being likely to
> cause
> > confusion by implying association with or sponsorship by Red Hat"?
> >
> > Now mind you, from the rest of the page that contained that quote, the
> > implication is that redhat will not answer any questions or make the issue
> any
> > clearer.  But if you want to give it a shot Chitlesh, I'm all ears and I'd
> be
> > grateful.
> >
> > -jdog
> >
> > >
> > > If you are having problem understanding a kadischi related wiki page,
> > > then maybe somebody else will too. So let's work together and reduce
> > > confusion.
> > >
> > > Chitlesh
> > >
> > > On 4/17/06, Jane Dogalt <jdogalt at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > --- Jane Dogalt <jdogalt at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --- Chitlesh GOORAH <chitlesh at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi/Legal
> > > > >
> > > > > I hate to be obtuse here Chitlesh, but seeing as how finally someone
> > > (Chris)
> > > > > clearly has _precisely_ the same question as I do, I need to
> reiterate
> > > that
> > > > > your supplied legal link does not answer my question.
> > > >
> > > > Ok.  I _think_ that reading the bottom most section of the wiki page,
> that
> > > the
> > > > answer to my question is clearly "Yes, no problem".
> > > >
> > > > And especially now that I read the link to the redhat/fedora trademark
> > > > guidelines, which I believe has changed signifgantly in the past 2
> years, I
> > > > think the answer is really "absolutely, no problem".
> > > >
> > > > My confusion, and I'm hoping to clear up other people's confusion here
> as
> > > well,
> > > > stemmed from what I believe was a historical guideline which forbid the
> > > > _inclusion_ of fedora/rh copyrighed artwork and trademarks in a
> derivative
> > > > distribution.  In which case, merely having the fedora-logos.rpm files
> > > would
> > > > make something unredistributable.  Perhaps this was never the case.
> > > Certainly
> > > > judging by the succinctness of the current trademark guidelines, and
> the
> > > > following quote, it appears that my #2 case, and Question: below, are
> > > > absolutely not a problem-
> > > >
> > > > "Red Hat does not permit or consent to any use of its trademarks in any
> > > manner
> > > > that is likely to cause confusion by implying association with or
> > > sponsorship
> > > > by Red Hat."
> > > >
> > > > Although the more specific question is-  If people see a fedora logo on
> a
> > > gdm
> > > > login screen on an iso called jane_dogalt_is_the_coolest.iso, would
> that
> > > "be
> > > > likely to cause confusion by implying association with or sponsorship
> by
> > > Red
> > > > Hat"?
> > > >
> > > > For my own purposes, I still think it will be wise for my own project
> to
> > > have a
> > > > post install script which removes the fedora-logos.rpm package, so that
> > > users
> > > > of my output needn't worry about splitting that legal hair.
> > > >
> > > > -jdog
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think in the archive post I referenced, the situation of #2, is
> very
> > > > > simple,
> > > > > and I can't seem to get a straight answer from fedora.  Can you
> please
> > > > > specifically answer my question in the above Kadischi Legal Wiki,
> i.e.
> > > > >
> > > > > Question:  If I as fedora/kadischi user, produce a livecd with
> kadischi
> > > (say
> > > > > nothing more than the supplied minimal.ks and a post install script
> that
> > > adds
> > > > > a
> > > > > motd of "jane dogalt is the coolest"), am I legally allowed to post
> that
> > > on
> > > > > my
> > > > > own website for mass distribution under the title
> > > > > "jane_dogalt_is_the_coolest.iso"?
> > > > >
> > > > > I.e. due to the default behavior of kadischi, fedora-logos*.rpm will
> be
> > > > > installed.  Is that a problem?  If so would simply removing that rpm
> in a
> > > > > post
> > > > > install script resolve the distribution problem?
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think I can specify the question any clearer than that.  And
> I
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > life of me don't see an answer to that in the wiki-kadischi-legal you
> > > > > referenced.
> > > > >
> > > > > -jdog
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 4/17/06, Chris Negus <cnegus at rucls.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sun, 2006-04-16 at 23:29 -0500, Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote:
> > > > > > > > Jane Dogalt wrote:
> > > > > > > > Now this is really strange, Kadischi is a tool to yes, to
> create
> > > LiveCD
> > > > > > > > media..
> > > > > > > > but to create Fedora Core CD media. Although Rahul mentions
> running
> > > > > > > > Anaconda in Debian
> > > > > > > > may be possible, I don't think right now is the time to be
> focusing
> > > any
> > > > > > > > efforts on running Kadischi
> > > > > > > > on everything but Fedora Core. Likewise in this same respect,
> > > Kadischi
> > > > > > > > shouldn't be focusing
> > > > > > > > on allowing users to build thier own "distribution". It is a
> LiveCD
> > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > not a distribution tool.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, I think this is a good point. The Fedora project still
> > > hasn't,
> > > > > > > in my mind, clearly stated how to legally use its logos and
> > > trademarks.
> > > > > > > The Wiki says to make formal requests to use the logo. I've made
> two
> > > > > > > such requests and have not gotten a response back.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So the question is not whether or not we want to help people
> build
> > > their
> > > > > > > own distributions from Kadischi. The question is how can someone
> > > legally
> > > > > > > redistribute "anything" built with Kadischi? If you change the
> splash
> 
=== message truncated ===

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