Urgent call for a spins SIG meeting

[Christoph Wickert]

Hi there,

we have 4 spins to approve for F18.  I know we missed the deadline, but
I cannot change it.  I was way too busy and I didn't even know there
were new spins to approve until the owners of Fedora Jam approached my
least week.  From that point on I have been working with them, because I
still think we should try to have these spins in Fedora 18.

As we are running out of time, I have done several things in parallel. I
already got the approval from the board, now we need the SIG to approve
them ASAP.

When is the best time for a meeting? I only have tomorrow, then I will
be traveling most of Friday, but I guess I could arrange something
throughout Saturday or Sunday while I am at the FAD in Rheinfelden. If
that doesn't work, I can arrange something on Monday, but we really need
to hurry up because the freeze for the spins-kickstart package is on
2012-12-11.

Kind regards,
Christoph

@Kevin: Can you get the Fedora Jam ks from
http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/music-creation.git/tree/spin-kickstarts/...
into koji for the nightlies?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:30:49 +0100
Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi there,
>  
>  we have 4 spins to approve for F18.  I know we missed the deadline,
>  but I cannot change it.  I was way too busy and I didn't even know
>  there were new spins to approve until the owners of Fedora Jam
>  approached my least week.  From that point on I have been working
>  with them, because I still think we should try to have these spins in
>  Fedora 18. 
Ugh. Wow is it late to add new spins, IMHO. ;( 

>  As we are running out of time, I have done several things in
>  parallel. I already got the approval from the board, now we need the
>  SIG to approve them ASAP.
>  
>  When is the best time for a meeting? I only have tomorrow, then I will
>  be traveling most of Friday, but I guess I could arrange something
>  throughout Saturday or Sunday while I am at the FAD in Rheinfelden. If
>  that doesn't work, I can arrange something on Monday, but we really
>  need to hurry up because the freeze for the spins-kickstart package
>  is on 2012-12-11. 
Just let me know when you decide and I will try and make it... 

What are the spins? I saw the jam, but what are the other 3? 
I have seen 0 on them... 

>  @Kevin: Can you get the Fedora Jam ks from
>
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/music-creation.git/tree/spin-kickstarts/...
>  into koji for the nightlies? 
I can, but shouldn't we wait for them to be approved?

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Spins

will need updated. 

kevin

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Mittwoch, den 05.12.2012, 16:58 -0700 schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
>  On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:30:49 +0100
>  Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  
>  > Hi there,
>  > 
>  > we have 4 spins to approve for F18.  I know we missed the deadline,
>  > but I cannot change it.  I was way too busy and I didn't even know
>  > there were new spins to approve until the owners of Fedora Jam
>  > approached my least week.  From that point on I have been working
>  > with them, because I still think we should try to have these spins in
>  > Fedora 18.
>  
>  Ugh. Wow is it late to add new spins, IMHO. ;(  
I know. But I don't see a problem with that, most the spins already
received testing. They are based on other tested spins and Fedora Jam
even had a test day.

>  What are the spins? I saw the jam, but what are the other 3?  
We have 3 ready for SIG: Fedora Jam, Java and Games, see
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_SIG
      * Games is only a re-approval, not sure if this really is
        necessary. The reason of the re-approval is to check is
        maintainers are still around, but Bruno is the most active of us
        I guess.
      * Fedora Jam was introduced, tested and so on.  I think it's one
        of the best spins ever, therefor it would be a pity to not do
        it.
      * Java seems straight forward, except from the name. Some board
        members expressed concerns about the name.  Java is a trademark
        of Oracle and "Fedora Java" sounds like we were shipping our own
        Java. The board recommends renaming it to something along the
        lines of "Fedora Java Development" and asked legal for
        clearance.

Then we have the minimal spin ready for wrangler, see
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_Wrangler
      * I like the idea and the ks looks good, however the intention
        goes one step further: Minimal could replace base as the minimal
        offering and base would inherit minimal. This impacts all other
        spins and therefor I think it's too late to change this now. We
        should target F19 instead and for F18 just release is as
        additional spin. 

>  I have seen 0 on them...  
Glad to know I am not alonw. I didn't know about them either because
AFAICS their owners did not send a message to the list. :(

>  > @Kevin: Can you get the Fedora Jam ks from
>  >
> http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/music-creation.git/tree/spin-kickstarts/...
>  > into koji for the nightlies?
>  
>  I can, but shouldn't we wait for them to be approved? 
Probably, but... we are just late and I consider the approval only a
formal step.

>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Spins will need updated. 
Thanks for the pointer.

Kind regards,
Christoph

[Gerard Ryan]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 04:58:54PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> What are the spins? I saw the jam, but what are the other 3?
> I have seen 0 on them... 
It looks like there are 3 [0].

One of them is the Java spin[1] which myself and Dan Allen have done
with the help of some others from the Java SIG. It was my GSOC
project. I brought it up here a couple of times around July/August
(original F18 schedule).

Since there was very little response to it here, we thought it was too
late for it to be accepted for F18. We put in quite a bit more polish
on it since then, but that isn't reflected in the ks[2] linked on the
proposal page. There's a gitorious repo[3] where we worked on it after
that, but since we weren't expecting it to be accepted, we did some
things that I think wouldn't be accepted in an official spin. We
called it a 'remix' then instead of a 'spin' so it would be recognised
as unofficial.

If it is accepted, there are a couple of small fixes that would like
to see added from the 'remix' edition; but I know it's late, so I
wouldn't change anything major.

On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:30:49 +0100
Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> Just let me know when you decide and I will try and make it... 
Any time is good for me, I'll be there if any discussion is needed on
the Java spin.

[0] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_SIG
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Java_spin
[2] http://galileo.fedorapeople.org/java-spin/fedora-livedvd-java.ks
[3] https://gitorious.org/fedora-jboss-spin/kickstart/

- -- 
Gerard Ryan :: http://blog.grdryn.me :: @grdryn
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[Kevin Fenzi]

On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 01:25:03 +0100
Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  > What are the spins? I saw the jam, but what are the other 3? 
>  
>  We have 3 ready for SIG: Fedora Jam, Java and Games, see
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_SIG 
...snip...

>  Then we have the minimal spin ready for wrangler, see
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_Wrangler
>        * I like the idea and the ks looks good, however the intention
>          goes one step further: Minimal could replace base as the
>  minimal offering and base would inherit minimal. This impacts all
>  other spins and therefor I think it's too late to change this now. We
>          should target F19 instead and for F18 just release is as
>          additional spin.  
Yes, that change is WAY to much right now. 

I see some things in minimal that aren't right... like it includes
grub-efi, but in f18, we are using grub2-efi. 

I'll try and look more... 

>  Probably, but... we are just late and I consider the approval only a
>  formal step. 
Well, we can't build them until their ks file is in git... the livecd
creator in koji pulls only from git.

kevin

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 5 December 2012 17:25, Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Am Mittwoch, den 05.12.2012, 16:58 -0700 schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
> > On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:30:49 +0100
> > Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > > Hi there,
> > >
> > > we have 4 spins to approve for F18.  I know we missed the deadline,
> > > but I cannot change it.  I was way too busy and I didn't even know
> > > there were new spins to approve until the owners of Fedora Jam
> > > approached my least week.  From that point on I have been working
> > > with them, because I still think we should try to have these spins in
> > > Fedora 18.
> >
> > Ugh. Wow is it late to add new spins, IMHO. ;(
>
>  I know. But I don't see a problem with that, most the spins already
>  received testing. They are based on other tested spins and Fedora Jam
>  even had a test day. 
Disk space and network bandwidth are the main issues here. Large file
access and such are more resource intensive for mirrors and us. If we
are doing torrents then we need to make sure our torrent server has
the resources for it. (It was tight a while ago so I don't know).

> > What are the spins? I saw the jam, but what are the other 3?
>
>  We have 3 ready for SIG: Fedora Jam, Java and Games, see
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_SIG
>        * Games is only a re-approval, not sure if this really is
>          necessary. The reason of the re-approval is to check is
>          maintainers are still around, but Bruno is the most active of us
>          I guess.
>        * Fedora Jam was introduced, tested and so on.  I think it's one
>          of the best spins ever, therefor it would be a pity to not do
>          it.
>        * Java seems straight forward, except from the name. Some board
>          members expressed concerns about the name.  Java is a trademark
>          of Oracle and "Fedora Java" sounds like we were shipping our own
>          Java. The board recommends renaming it to something along the
>          lines of "Fedora Java Development" and asked legal for
>          clearance. 
In the past anything listed with Java software related got a cease and
desist or some other letter pretty darn quickly. I would worry a lot
too. JDK development or IcedTea development is probably going to be
more likely.



-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
"Don't derail a useful feature for the 99% because you're not in it."
Linus Torvalds
"Years ago my mother used to say to me,... Elwood, you must be oh
so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I
recommend pleasant. You may quote me."  —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Thu, Dec 06, 2012 at 01:25:03 +0100,
   Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> We have 3 ready for SIG: Fedora Jam, Java and Games, see
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_SIG
>       * Games is only a re-approval, not sure if this really is
>         necessary. The reason of the re-approval is to check is
>         maintainers are still around, but Bruno is the most active of us
>         I guess. 
I don't need to do much with the games spin. Mostly check size, remove 
dropped games and occasionally add a new one. This time around I added 
a package to let Joysticks and gamepads work on the live images.

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 17:58:51 -0700,
   Stephen John Smoogen <smooge(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> Disk space and network bandwidth are the main issues here. Large file
> access and such are more resource intensive for mirrors and us. If we
> are doing torrents then we need to make sure our torrent server has
> the resources for it. (It was tight a while ago so I don't know). 
We also have the option to make them ks only. For the minimal spin 
that may make more sense than a live image.

[Gerard Ryan]

On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 05:58:51PM -0700, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 5 December 2012 17:25, Christoph Wickert
> <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote 
<snip>
> >       * Java seems straight forward, except from the name. Some
> board
> >         members expressed concerns about the name.  Java is a trademark
> >         of Oracle and "Fedora Java" sounds like we were shipping our own
> >         Java. The board recommends renaming it to something along the
> >         lines of "Fedora Java Development" and asked legal for
> >         clearance.
>
> In the past anything listed with Java software related got a cease and
> desist or some other letter pretty darn quickly. I would worry a lot
> too. JDK development or IcedTea development is probably going to be
> more likely.
>  
Originally we intended it to be "Fedora JBoss" instead of "Fedora
Java", but we thought that the name might be a little limiting: most
of the stuff there is useful for Java development, and some people
might be put off by the thought of it being very JBoss specific. I
think JDK development is probably fine, I'll point Dan to this
conversation to see if he has any other suggestions.

-- 
Gerard Ryan :: http://blog.grdryn.me :: @grdryn
AA11 A666 C98E B6D8 231C 11ED 6EDC 7E4A 62BC 4A15

[Gerard Ryan]

On Fri, Dec 07, 2012 at 12:48:44AM +0000, Gerard Ryan wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 05, 2012 at 05:58:51PM -0700, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> >On 5 December 2012 17:25, Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote
> <snip>
> >>      * Java seems straight forward, except from the name. Some board
> >>        members expressed concerns about the name.  Java is a trademark
> >>        of Oracle and "Fedora Java" sounds like we were shipping our
> own
> >>        Java. The board recommends renaming it to something along the
> >>        lines of "Fedora Java Development" and asked legal for
> >>        clearance.
> >
> >In the past anything listed with Java software related got a cease and
> >desist or some other letter pretty darn quickly. I would worry a lot
> >too. JDK development or IcedTea development is probably going to be
> >more likely.
> >
>
> Originally we intended it to be "Fedora JBoss" instead of "Fedora
> Java", but we thought that the name might be a little limiting: most
> of the stuff there is useful for Java development, and some people
> might be put off by the thought of it being very JBoss specific. I
> think JDK development is probably fine, I'll point Dan to this
> conversation to see if he has any other suggestions. 
So I spoke with Dan, and he suggested "Fedora JVM Spin". Does that
sound okay to everyone? This makes it clearer that it's a spin for
building for the JVM, rather than developing the JDK. We'll go with
that if there are no objections?

-- 
Gerard Ryan :: http://blog.grdryn.me :: @grdryn
AA11 A666 C98E B6D8 231C 11ED 6EDC 7E4A 62BC 4A15

[Brendan Jones]

On 12/06/2012 01:58 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
<snip>
>  Disk space and network bandwidth are the main issues here. Large file
>  access and such are more resource intensive for mirrors and us. If we
>  are doing torrents then we need to make sure our torrent server has
>  the resources for it. (It was tight a while ago so I don't know).
>  
Brendan from the music-creation SIG here (jam spin). With this concern 
in mind, should we be making every effort to reduce the size of the spin 
or is this more related to the number of new spins added this release cycle.