archive vs deletion

[Max Spevack]

Hi,

I don't like the Archive/Delete processes that we have, and here is why, 
and how I think it should be changed.

The cost of creating a wiki page should be very low.  This encourages 
collaboration, and it encourages people to try to write down crazy ideas 
that may or may not work.

The ability to delete a wiki page is not easy.  I can't find it now, but 
a while back I saw a bunch of requirements that a page had to meet in 
order to be "deleted" and otherwise it can only be "archived".

I submit to you that a process like that discourages people from ever 
moving a page to the Archive namespace, because they no longer have 
control over its final fate.  If I create a page in my own personal 
namespace and want that page to be deleted, as I understand it right now 
I can't do that all by myself.  That's wrong.

I guess I see the world as black and white.  Either a page is useful, or 
it is not.  Why would you want to keep an archived copy of a useless or 
outdated page sitting around?  What if the owner of that page would 
simply prefer that the page cease to exist?  Why is it better for Fedora 
to have a big pile of abandoned pages sitting around, rather than simply 
purge them and move on?

Something like Archive: allows you to have a window of time to take a 
look at what might end up being deleted -- as a sanity check -- but I 
think that after a page has been in Archive for a week or 2 weeks, 
anyone should be able to make that page go away.

Anyone should be able to trivially get a list of all pages that have 
been in Archive: for X amount of time, look at them, and then delete 
them if they think they should be deleted.

My .02,
Max

[Ian Weller]

On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 09:59:25PM +0200, Max Spevack wrote:
>  I don't like the Archive/Delete processes that we have, and here
> is why, 
>  and how I think it should be changed.
>  
>  The cost of creating a wiki page should be very low.  This encourages 
>  collaboration, and it encourages people to try to write down crazy ideas 
>  that may or may not work.
>  
>  The ability to delete a wiki page is not easy.  I can't find it now, but 
>  a while back I saw a bunch of requirements that a page had to meet in 
>  order to be "deleted" and otherwise it can only be "archived".
>  
>  I submit to you that a process like that discourages people from ever 
>  moving a page to the Archive namespace, because they no longer have 
>  control over its final fate.  If I create a page in my own personal 
>  namespace and want that page to be deleted, as I understand it right now 
>  I can't do that all by myself.  That's wrong.
>  
>  I guess I see the world as black and white.  Either a page is useful, or 
>  it is not.  Why would you want to keep an archived copy of a useless or 
>  outdated page sitting around?  What if the owner of that page would 
>  simply prefer that the page cease to exist?  Why is it better for Fedora 
>  to have a big pile of abandoned pages sitting around, rather than simply 
>  purge them and move on?
>  
>  Something like Archive: allows you to have a window of time to take a 
>  look at what might end up being deleted -- as a sanity check -- but I 
>  think that after a page has been in Archive for a week or 2 weeks, 
>  anyone should be able to make that page go away.
>  
>  Anyone should be able to trivially get a list of all pages that have 
>  been in Archive: for X amount of time, look at them, and then delete 
>  them if they think they should be deleted.
>   
Users without the 'delete' right can't delete any pages in MediaWiki,
and users with it can delete all pages (even the Main Page[1]). This
can't be specific to the areas you defined.

Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the
user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current
policy[2]. The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can
be tagged for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can
be blown to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see
discussion on it though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a
mistake (see footnote [1] again).

And if I'm reading any of this wrong, tell me. I'll also bring this up
to vote at the next FDSCo meeting and see if we have consensus -- it
sounds perfectly sane to me. Discussion on this list is encouraged.

[1]: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/WW:DDMP
[2]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Deletion

-- 
Ian Weller <ianweller(a)gmail.com&gt;
GnuPG fingerprint:  E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226  B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36

[Paul W. Frields]

On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 03:31:26PM -0500, Ian Weller wrote:
>  Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the
>  user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current
>  policy[2]. The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can
>  be tagged for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can
>  be blown to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see
>  discussion on it though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a
>  mistake (see footnote [1] again). 
I think, if there is an undeletion function as well, then:

(1) More than one person should have the ability to delete pages,
although it doesn't need to be everyone.

(2) A policy of deleting anything in Archive: older than two weeks
sounds is sensible and good.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
  irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug

[Susan Lauber]

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 03:31:26PM -0500, Ian Weller wrote:
> > Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the
> > user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current
> > policy[2]. The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can
> > be tagged for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can
> > be blown to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see
> > discussion on it though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a
> > mistake (see footnote [1] again).
>
>  I think, if there is an undeletion function as well, then:
>
>  (1) More than one person should have the ability to delete pages,
>  although it doesn't need to be everyone.
>
>  (2) A policy of deleting anything in Archive: older than two weeks
>  sounds is sensible and good. 


I have no problem with having more pages deleted - after a period of
time to let people know of the change in policy.

I am, however, a bit concerned about some pages that might currently
be in archive that should NOT be deleted.  For example, in the various
cleanup efforts since the conversion I know some stuff was moved to
archive to get it out of the default search but with the understanding
that it was not completely gone and a search of archives would bring
up the pages for reference.

One big example would be HOWTO pages related to end of life versions -
it is a shame to delete them completely since there are people who
still used those older version but I don't want a default search of
selinux to bring up the guide to selinux on FC5.

There are also some packaging guideline drafts that were rejected or
dropped due to lack of followup.   I don't want those in a default
search either but I also do not want people submitting the same
suggestion over and over simply because it appears that no one ever
had tried before.  They should search Packaging, main, and archive for
similar suggestions before submitting a new draft.

These are just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head.

-Susan


>  --
>  Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
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>
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>
>  


-- 
Susan Lauber, (RHCX, RHCA, RHCSS)
Lauber System Solutions, Inc.
http://www.laubersolutions.com
gpg: 15AC F794 A3D9 64D1 D9CE  4C26 EFC3 11C2 BFA1 0974

[Max Spevack]

On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, Ian Weller wrote:

>  Currently, any pages within the user namespace can be deleted at the
>  user's request if they file a ticket or ask me. This is current
>  policy[2]. 
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Deletion 
[2] is the page I was looking for that I'd seen previously.  Truth be 
told, I'm not a big fan of that policy, but I don't expect it to be 
changed just because I don't like it.

I have a feeling I'm going to be asked to argue my case on IRC shortly. 
:)

>  The other purpose, which I read as "anything in Archive: can be
> tagged 
>  for deletion and if nobody removes it after two weeks it can be blown 
>  to pieces", is a good idea (I think). I'd like to see discussion on it 
>  though. Pages can be undeleted as well if it was a mistake (see 
>  footnote [1] again). 
Cool.

--Max

A new policy for deleting wiki pages on the Fedora wiki.

[Eric Christensen]

Earlier today, Max brought up a good point about being able to remove
pages from the wiki.  We discussed it and came up with the following
plan.

If you want something removed from the wiki,

1. Add the {{delete|reason}} template to the page, at the top. Please
insert the reason for your deletion so the wiki team will have no
problem understanding why the page needs to evaporate.

2. Move the page to the Archive: namespace. Select the move tab at the
top of the page, and simply rename the page to include the prefix
"Archive:". 
              * EXAMPLE: My_ugly_old_page => Archive:My_ugly_old_page
              * EXAMPLE: User:Jpublic/Some_page
                =>Archive:User:Jpublic/Some_page

Pages moved in this way are removed by the wiki team after a two-week
cooling-off period.


Additional information on the new deletion policy can be found at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraProject:Deletion.


Thanks,
Eric
Fedora Docs Project

GPG Fingerprint: CA02 4ACA EB6C 1A76 F0D6  1127 7D04 D240 BD0C 14C1