[Bug 972256] New: The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Bug ID: 972256
           Summary: The release notes on the website have grammar errors,
                    missing words. Not all my corrections were
                    implemented.
           Product: Fedora Documentation
           Version: devel
         Component: release-notes
          Severity: medium
          Priority: unspecified
          Assignee: [e-mail]
          Reporter: [e-mail]
        QA Contact: [e-mail]
                CC: [e-mail], [e-mail],
                    [e-mail]

Created attachment 758390
  --> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=758390&action=edit
Corrected Fedora 19 release notes.

Description of problem:

I worked on the draft of the release notes, pointed out via markups, errors in
grammer, missing words and miss spellings. It was decided to not correct some
of the errors and publish. I have prepared a document which highlights the
errors, and most of all, corrects an omission in an Appendix A3.

My original release notes submission was done at end-April.

Hereto this bug is an update to the release notes. 
I would use the collaboration features of libreoffice, but not everyone knows
how to use it. Therefore I have resorted to coloring text yellow to show
removals, red to show insertions and to also insert words that were omitted. I
also asked some questions as to what the author was trying to say.

We all, myself included are guilty of omitting words when we write our first
draft. Because we think while we write, a good proof read of the document is
needed.

So I am reporting 25+ corrections to the release notes shown on the website.

The document with the corrections is attached.

I am also very disappointed that the proofreading effort was not recognized. In
that regard, I included an additional Appendix A3.

Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable):

Fedora 19 Release notes.

How reproducible:

Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.
3.

Actual results:

Expected results:

Additional info:

needinfo requested: [Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

Product: Fedora Documentation
Version: devel
Component: release-notes

Pete Travis  has asked Fedora Docs QA
 for needinfo:
Bug 972256: The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing
words. Not all my corrections were implemented.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

------- Additional Comments from Pete Travis 
First, I want to say that I do appreciate your review and your persistence.
There were some embarrassing grammatical faults that might have been missed
without you.

I do want to be clear, however: I'm not going to replace every instance of 'on'
in the text. Translators and users understand the usage of the word 'on' in
contexts other than vertical proximity. Your drawing attention to it does make
it seem used excessively, and I'll keep it in mind with future work.

Many of your suggestions appeared to request rephrasing based on personal
preference, often to the detriment of the technical accuracy of the copy. 
However, the review was useful in identifying unclear passages, even if it was
not applied verbatim.

Here's what I changed:
The sentences about syslinux were confusing, and should read better now.
Corrected the spelling error of "Performace" Co-Pilot
Added the 'to' in the crtools section.
Added a 'from' to the node.js docs package sentence

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that you're requesting formal acknowledgement.
Bug reporters, while vital to the open source community, are not typically
listed as upstream contributors.

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Pete Travis  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |ON_QA
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]
                   |                            |.org, [e-mail]
           Assignee|[e-mail]  |[e-mail]
              Flags|                            |needinfo?([e-mail]
                   |                            |oraproject.org)

--- Comment #1 from Pete Travis  ---
First, I want to say that I do appreciate your review and your persistence.
There were some embarrassing grammatical faults that might have been missed
without you.

I do want to be clear, however: I'm not going to replace every instance of 'on'
in the text. Translators and users understand the usage of the word 'on' in
contexts other than vertical proximity. Your drawing attention to it does make
it seem used excessively, and I'll keep it in mind with future work.

Many of your suggestions appeared to request rephrasing based on personal
preference, often to the detriment of the technical accuracy of the copy. 
However, the review was useful in identifying unclear passages, even if it was
not applied verbatim.

Here's what I changed:
The sentences about syslinux were confusing, and should read better now.
Corrected the spelling error of "Performace" Co-Pilot
Added the 'to' in the crtools section.
Added a 'from' to the node.js docs package sentence

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that you're requesting formal acknowledgement.
Bug reporters, while vital to the open source community, are not typically
listed as upstream contributors.

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

--- Comment #2 from Leslie Satenstein  ---
Why the changes.

In French, Spanish, or non-American English, the word "on does not make sense
and cannot be used.  The French cannot say "Je vous parle sur Gnome". (if you
do not know the French language, sur means on something physical). Neither is
it possible in Spanish or Hebrew to say (in their language) I will talk to you
on an individual item. Yes, I concede that we can talk on a topic or grouping.

So, when we have a Bilingual French, Spanish, or other language individual
reading the English text, they have to rethink what is the message.

The second point that was corrected is when you have multiple nouns (subjects)
in the same sentence, followed by and, with a qualifier. The gross example was
with maria.db and mysql.  Was the large following for maria.db or was it for
mysql?

By the same token, A sentence with two subjects is followed by the next
sentence beginning  "This  xxxx"   What does the xxxx part refer to? Does it
refer to the first item in the previous sentence or the other item.

I am for writing clearly, and to allow a non-English person to understand the
release note, because he is faced with the challenge of a) translating and then
b) trying to understand the English readily.

You may not have worked in a technical publishing company. I did two years of
writing and having the same corrections slapped back at me.

I absolutely made sure that the author's description that was in his mind, was
correct. Where I was not sure, I marked up the changes with a question.

Now, the next thing to consider is recognition. The proof reading effort is
very laborous, and takes hours.  What you saw was not the product of an
automated software, but of reading in detail each section, of saying to myself,
would a non-English person understand the sentence, or is it correct.

There was more than 10-12 hours spent to proofread 5 chapters. It is no small
task. It requires a person with an Software, network and hardware engineering
background. That effort deserves recognition

Why did I raise this bugzilla request? ans: Because the release note itself
indicated to do it.

There are 5 CC'd individuals. Let them decide together.  I will go with the
flow. I am sure some of the changes will not make it. But that is what a proof
reader expects.

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

--- Comment #3 from Leslie Satenstein  ---
One last comment, The F19 is not officially released, and until it is, the
release notes are not cast in stone.

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Eric Christensen  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

--- Comment #4 from Eric Christensen  ---
Translations are never word-for-word.  The basic sentence structure of the
Spanish language is completely different than that of the English language.  It
is up to the translator to make the transition between the languages.  Changes
should not be made at the detriment of the facts and not to the readability of
the source language.

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Leslie Satenstein  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Flags|needinfo?([e-mail] |
                   |oraproject.org)             |

--- Comment #5 from Leslie Satenstein  ---
Eric, I agree with you. English has so many dialects and differences in
understanding sentences. From Jamaica, USA, Canada, England, India and
elsewhere, the phrases for universality are what I am after.  
Regarding the use of on.
Le livre est sur le bureau. Je veux parler sur annaconda is the translation
from
"The book is on the desk. I want to talk to you on annaconda.". In French we
cannot use sur annaconda.  In Spanish can I write "Quiero hablar con usted en
anaconda." or should I write " Quiero hablar con usted acerca de anaconda.". I
think that the use of "on" for "about" is American practice only.

I also had another situation in the sentence comparing maria.db and mysql and
the reference "has a great following." or something like that. I took it to
mean that mysql has a great following, but I believe the author meant it to be
maria.db has a great following. (refer to the text I uploaded).

I firmly believe that there are some important rules for documentation.
a) The sentences should be at a high school level (standard public writing
practices)
b) The sentences should have no spelling mistakes.
c) The links are verified at time of writing, and again by the proof reader.
d) That someone who uses Google translate or other software gets a good
translated sentence.

Regarding languages, my wife is Spanish, I am English, but I work 95% in
French. At home we speak all three languages. I cringe from the little English
errors.

All I am after is to allot time for a good proof read of a public document
before it goes public. Proof reading is a very difficult task. You must know
the subject well, and then know your language well.

There are too many discussions about this one Release Note. You may do with it
what you want. I did what I had to do.  I most certainly do not have
exclusivity on group decisions.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?regetlastlist=1434366

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Bryan Sutherland  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

--- Comment #6 from Bryan Sutherland  ---
I think the gist of this conversation relies on the individual translator. I
would expect that anyone that is doing the translation is able to understand
the usage of the phrase and not use a literal "on" as used in your example.

You have to remember that the translators typically are translating into their
native language. So in your example, you wouldn't do a literal translation as
you know that wouldn't make sense so the documentation is "correct" in both
dialects.

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Leslie Satenstein  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|ON_QA                       |CLOSED
         Resolution|---                         |DEFERRED
        Last Closed|                            |2013-06-13 20:48:04

--- Comment #7 from Leslie Satenstein  ---
Please close. It has delivered its message. Please do not kill the messenger.
(grin)

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Pete Travis  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|CLOSED                      |ASSIGNED
         Resolution|DEFERRED                    |---
           Keywords|                            |Reopened

--- Comment #8 from Pete Travis  ---
We have a QA process and an established bugzilla workflow. Please don't change
the status of bugs assigned to others.

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

--- Comment #12 from Leslie Satenstein  ---
Please forward to the L10n group (French Translation markeup and authoring of
missing translations)

[Bug 972256] The release notes on the website have grammar errors, missing words. Not all my corrections were implemented.

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=972256

Pete Travis  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|ON_QA                       |CLOSED
         Resolution|---                         |CURRENTRELEASE
        Last Closed|2013-06-13 20:48:04         |2013-08-01 02:26:56