Why is RedHat using Piwik to track contributors?

[Jean-Baptiste]

Hi there,

I notice this piwik instance is used on Zanata :
https://engstats.redhat.com/piwik/piwik.js

I do not understand the aim of this, if gather a few user statistics on public website is
fine to me (we need to mesure the impact of widespread communication), I am not
confortable by using it on contributor tools.

Redhat already have a lot of tracking of public activity of what we do (it's open and
we use the same login everywhere), why would you like to go deeper in who we are ?

Is it an exception to be fixed or something you do on other contributors tools ?

Thanks for your help,

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 12:02:22PM -0000, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:
>  Hi there,
>  
>  I notice this piwik instance is used on Zanata :
>  https://engstats.redhat.com/piwik/piwik.js
>  
>  I do not understand the aim of this, if gather a few user statistics on public website is
> fine to me (we need to mesure the impact of widespread communication), I am not
> confortable by using it on contributor tools.
>  
>  Redhat already have a lot of tracking of public activity of what we do (it's open and
> we use the same login everywhere), why would you like to go deeper in who we are ?
>  
>  Is it an exception to be fixed or something you do on other contributors tools ? 
These are interesting question, but if I recall correctly we (fedora) do not
host nor maintain Zanata, so unfortunately, we cannot answer them.

Maybe you could ask the people who are maintaining it?
If you do not have a contact email, we may be able to look for a point of
contact for you to ask these questions.

Fedora infra has its own piwik instance on which some of our apps are, but I do
not believe they track any user's activity, more provide some statistics on
usage. Some people might be better placed than I am to comment on the questions
piwik answers in our infra.


Hope this helps,
Pierre

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 12:02:22 -0000
"Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" <jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:

>  Hi there,
>  
>  I notice this piwik instance is used on Zanata :
>  https://engstats.redhat.com/piwik/piwik.js
>  
>  I do not understand the aim of this, if gather a few user statistics
>  on public website is fine to me (we need to mesure the impact of
>  widespread communication), I am not confortable by using it on
>  contributor tools.
>  
>  Redhat already have a lot of tracking of public activity of what we
>  do (it's open and we use the same login everywhere), why would you
>  like to go deeper in who we are ?
>  
>  Is it an exception to be fixed or something you do on other
>  contributors tools ?
>  
>  Thanks for your help,  
Well, we don't run fedora.zanata.org. The zanata folks do. 

So, I guess I'd suggest sending your question to one of the zanata
mailing lists: http://zanata.org/mailing-lists/ or filing an issue at: 
http://zanata.org/issues/

kevin

[Jean-Baptiste]

Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin.
Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there is no possibility for
us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org is part of the Fedora project and as such,
I'm asking the official RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor
statistics.

Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store time spent on each page,
clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can track ?
It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy :
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:41:39 -0000
"Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" <jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:

>  Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin. 
Well, not sure how else I can answer. We don't manage Zanata and don't
know how or why they setup things the way they did. 

>  Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there
>  is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org
>  is part of the Fedora project and as such, I'm asking the official
>  RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor statistics. 
There are tools that the Fedora community uses that are not managed by
Fedora Infrastructure. Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another,
Freenoode yet another. These are all tools where we had decided we
don't have the resources to run our own instances or feel that existing
tools are fine.

We do not manage zanata at all. We don't have any control over it. 
I cannot tell you why something was setup the way it was other than
asking the owner(s), which you can also do. 

>  Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store
> time
>  spent on each page, clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can
>  track ? It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy :
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy 
This policy applies to Fedora Project resources. Bugzilla, Zanata and
Freenode have their own privacy policies. 

kevin

[Carlos Munoz]

Hi All,

The Zanata development team manages the Fedora Zanata instance. Alex Eng is
part of this effort. We use piwik to track the general usage that Zanata is
getting. We use the Red Hat instance because in that way we can see and
combine the data from all the Zanata instances we manage. We use it to
track things like which browsers are being used to access it, what are the
pages that are most visited, etc.

This helps us a lot to determine which features need greater priority, or
whether we should test that certain pages work perfectly in mobile
browsers, for example. As far as I have seen (or am interested) the data
piwik gathers does not include user identifying information, and it has
never left the Zanata development team for that matter.

Let me or Alex know if you have any other questions.

Regards,

Carlos A. Munoz
Associate Manager, Software Engineering
Content Services and Globalization
Red Hat

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:41:39 -0000
>  "Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" <jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:
>
>  > Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin.
>
>  Well, not sure how else I can answer. We don't manage Zanata and don't
>  know how or why they setup things the way they did.
>
>  > Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there
>  > is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org
>  > is part of the Fedora project and as such, I'm asking the official
>  > RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor statistics.
>
>  There are tools that the Fedora community uses that are not managed by
>  Fedora Infrastructure. Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another,
>  Freenoode yet another. These are all tools where we had decided we
>  don't have the resources to run our own instances or feel that existing
>  tools are fine.
>
>  We do not manage zanata at all. We don't have any control over it.
>  I cannot tell you why something was setup the way it was other than
>  asking the owner(s), which you can also do.
>
>  > Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store time
>  > spent on each page, clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can
>  > track ? It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy :
>  > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
>
>  This policy applies to Fedora Project resources. Bugzilla, Zanata and
>  Freenode have their own privacy policies.
>
>  kevin
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave@lists.
>  fedoraproject.org
>
>

[Alex Eng]

Jean-Baptise,


>  Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there
>  > is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org
>  > is part of the Fedora project and as such
>  
I remember there was a huge discussion among translator's team in Fedora
for few months and its a decision from Fedora community, not RedHat.

Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another,
>  Freenoode yet another. 

I don't think you're bound to use these tools in Fedora. But it is the fact
that the tools is mature andis widely used by community. This is the same
discussion with Fedora Hub why they support IRC rather than other chat
 platform, because its being used by community.

With Piwik, Carlos's reply explained it.

You can ask the same question on any application which community uses.
Generally, I think its the same for all of them, and I think its fine as
long as it is for benefit of improving the application.

Feel free to let me know if you have anymore question.






---------------------------------------------

Alex Eng
Senior Software Engineer
Globalisation Tools Engineering
DID: [phone] <callto:+61+3514+8262>
Mobile: [phone] <callto:+614+2335+3457>

Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
Level 1, 193 North Quay
Brisbane 4000
Office: [phone] <callto:+61+7+3514+8100>
Fax: [phone] <callto:+61+7+3514+8199>
Website: www.redhat.com

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:44 AM, Carlos Munoz <camunoz(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi All,
>
>  The Zanata development team manages the Fedora Zanata instance. Alex Eng
>  is part of this effort. We use piwik to track the general usage that Zanata
>  is getting. We use the Red Hat instance because in that way we can see and
>  combine the data from all the Zanata instances we manage. We use it to
>  track things like which browsers are being used to access it, what are the
>  pages that are most visited, etc.
>
>  This helps us a lot to determine which features need greater priority, or
>  whether we should test that certain pages work perfectly in mobile
>  browsers, for example. As far as I have seen (or am interested) the data
>  piwik gathers does not include user identifying information, and it has
>  never left the Zanata development team for that matter.
>
>  Let me or Alex know if you have any other questions.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Carlos A. Munoz
>  Associate Manager, Software Engineering
>  Content Services and Globalization
>  Red Hat
>
>  On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com&gt; wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:41:39 -0000
> > "Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" <jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin.
> >
> > Well, not sure how else I can answer. We don't manage Zanata and don't
> > know how or why they setup things the way they did.
> >
> > > Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there
> > > is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org
> > > is part of the Fedora project and as such, I'm asking the official
> > > RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor statistics.
> >
> > There are tools that the Fedora community uses that are not managed by
> > Fedora Infrastructure. Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another,
> > Freenoode yet another. These are all tools where we had decided we
> > don't have the resources to run our own instances or feel that existing
> > tools are fine.
> >
> > We do not manage zanata at all. We don't have any control over it.
> > I cannot tell you why something was setup the way it was other than
> > asking the owner(s), which you can also do.
> >
> > > Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store time
> > > spent on each page, clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can
> > > track ? It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy :
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
> >
> > This policy applies to Fedora Project resources. Bugzilla, Zanata and
> > Freenode have their own privacy policies.
> >
> > kevin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave(a)lists.fed
> > oraproject.org
> >
> >
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave@lists.
>  fedoraproject.org
>
>

[Jean-Baptiste]

Well, thank you for your answer, can you create your Policy page and remove it from
Fedora.Zanata.org to respect Fedora Policy ?

[Alex Eng]

Jean-Baptise,

I'm not sure what you mean by "create policy page"? Do we have policy page
that I'm not aware of?

and remove it from fedora.zanata.org? Remove which page from Zanata?



---------------------------------------------

Alex Eng
Senior Software Engineer
Globalisation Tools Engineering
DID: [phone] <callto:+61+3514+8262>
Mobile: [phone] <callto:+614+2335+3457>

Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
Level 1, 193 North Quay
Brisbane 4000
Office: [phone] <callto:+61+7+3514+8100>
Fax: [phone] <callto:+61+7+3514+8199>
Website: www.redhat.com

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft <
jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:

>  Well, thank you for your answer, can you create your Policy page and
>  remove it from Fedora.Zanata.org to respect Fedora Policy ?
>  _______________________________________________
>  infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave@lists.
>  fedoraproject.org
>

[Jean-Baptiste]

Le 2016-10-11 08:04, Alex Eng a écrit :
>  Jean-Baptise,
>  
>  I'm not sure what you mean by "create policy page"? Do we have policy
>  page that I'm not aware of?
>  
>  and remove it from fedora.zanata.org [2]? Remove which page from
>  Zanata? 

English native doing that to evade the subject...

Let's rewrite it :
Well, thank you for your answer:
* can you create a dedicated Zanata Policy page ?
* can you remove Piwiki script from Fedora.Zanata.org to respect Fedora 
Policy ?


To answer your question, I'm surprised you do not know you have a terms 
page using RedHat policy page: http://zanata.org/terms
Let me quote the content:

>  12. Privacy Statement
>  Red Hat agrees to use your personal information in accordance with the 
>  Privacy Policy published at 
>  http://www.redhat.com/legal/privacy_statement.html (the "Red Hat 
>  Privacy Policy") and the Terms. The Red Hat Privacy Policy is hereby 
>  incorporated by reference into these Terms. In the event of any 
>  conflict between these Terms and the Red Hat Privacy Policy, the Red 
>  Hat Privacy Policy shall control. 
As far as I understand Red Hat Privacy Policy, it doesn't respect it 
either. It is done for a website browsing usage and not for 
collaborative tool.


I'm sad to notice mailing list guidelines are not respected either : 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Please respect https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy

Values are important, it's what make us work together, gathering every 
information we can about user is not something we should encourage.


Please notice it hurt to see you set the statistics you want as a 
developpement team, while you do not set the statistics we need to help 
Language Coordination in Zanata.

[Carlos Munoz]

Hi Jean-Baptiste, please see my comments inline.

Regards,

Carlos.

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft <
jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:

>  Le 2016-10-11 08:04, Alex Eng a écrit :
>
> > Jean-Baptise,
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean by "create policy page"? Do we have policy
> > page that I'm not aware of?
> >
> > and remove it from fedora.zanata.org [2]? Remove which page from
> > Zanata?
> >
>
>
>  English native doing that to evade the subject...
>  
Not sure what is being implied here, but Alex is genuinely not aware of
what you meant here, and neither was I until you clarified it was the
Zanata terms of use page, so thank you for said clarification.


>  Let's rewrite it :
>  Well, thank you for your answer:
>  * can you create a dedicated Zanata Policy page ?
>  
We already did this, and it's the one you see at the moment. You however
pointed out it doesn't align with Fedora policy. It can be changed by any
admin in the system when a new url is provided. We have admin rights in the
system, but we'd prefer if these changes were done by a Fedora l10n admin
(e.g. Noriko) as this is their responsibility and they have stated they
prefer all changes to go through them. I also imagine there needs to be
some discussion about any such changes with the community as a whole.


>  * can you remove Piwiki script from Fedora.Zanata.org to respect
> Fedora
>  Policy ?
>  
Same thing here. It can be done, but please have one of the l10n admins
take care of the change. In this particular case I would really urge the
community to consider keeping the setting as it provides the development
team valuable information about how Zanata is being used. But alas if this
goes against policy then we will just have to make due.


>  To answer your question, I'm surprised you do not know you have a terms
>  page using RedHat policy page: http://zanata.org/terms
>  Let me quote the content:
>
>  12. Privacy Statement
> > Red Hat agrees to use your personal information in accordance with the
> > Privacy Policy published at http://www.redhat.com/legal/pr
> > ivacy_statement.html (the "Red Hat Privacy Policy") and the Terms. The
> > Red Hat Privacy Policy is hereby incorporated by reference into these
> > Terms. In the event of any conflict between these Terms and the Red Hat
> > Privacy Policy, the Red Hat Privacy Policy shall control.
> >
>
>  As far as I understand Red Hat Privacy Policy, it doesn't respect it
>  either. It is done for a website browsing usage and not for collaborative
>  tool.
>
>
>  I'm sad to notice mailing list guidelines are not respected either :
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  Please respect https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy 

I'm curious as to which part of the mailing list guidelines you feel is not
being respected by Zanata. Would you care to elaborate?


>  Values are important, it's what make us work together, gathering every
>  information we can about user is not something we should encourage.
>  
Agreed on values. We are happy to help wherever we can, but please
understand Zanata is in no way attempting to 'gather every information'
about its users. Whatever information it tracks is akin to system logs, to
be used to analyze and improve the platform. But like I said before, the
community can elect to opt out of this, and the admins have the capability
to do it.


>  Please notice it hurt to see you set the statistics you want as a
>  developpement team, while you do not set the statistics we need to help
>  Language Coordination in Zanata. 

Not sure I understand your point here. Do you wish to see some of the piwik
statistics which could help with language coordination? If so, we would be
happy to share those with the community.
Or, are you talking about new features in Zanata for the same purpose?

Furthermore, should we move this thread to the l10n mailing list and out of
the Infra one?


>  _______________________________________________
>  infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave(a)lists.fed
>  oraproject.org
>

[Fabio Alessandro Locati]

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:48:20AM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:
>  English native doing that to evade the subject... 
Hi Jean-Baptiste,

Can you please assume good faith?
In this thread in more than one email your affirmations seems to imply
that there is someone trying to "cover up" (my definition) and
"evade"
(you definition) the subject. This is not very polite, imho.

Best,
Fale
-- 
Fabio Alessandro Locati
Red Hat - Senior Consultant

PGP Fingerprint: E815 3C49 2A8D FD8B 1CBD  BC85 FDB3 DF20 B2DC 9C1B

[Jean-Baptiste]

Le 11/10/2016 à 18:12, Fabio Alessandro Locati a écrit :
>  On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:48:20AM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft
> wrote:
> > English native doing that to evade the subject...
>  Hi Jean-Baptiste,
>
>  Can you please assume good faith?
>  In this thread in more than one email your affirmations seems to imply
>  that there is someone trying to "cover up" (my definition) and
> "evade"
>  (you definition) the subject. This is not very polite, imho.
>
>  Best,
>  Fale 
ok Fale, thank for pointing it out. I'll do better in the future.
Sorry about that Alex, I assume this is related to the frustration 
created by Zanata imperfections over timewhich is not related to the 
subject.

-- 
Jean-Baptiste Holcroft

[Parag Nemade]

Hi,

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 12:46 AM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft <
jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:

>  Le 11/10/2016 à 18:12, Fabio Alessandro Locati a écrit :
>
> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:48:20AM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:
> >
> >> English native doing that to evade the subject...
> >>
> > Hi Jean-Baptiste,
> >
> > Can you please assume good faith?
> > In this thread in more than one email your affirmations seems to imply
> > that there is someone trying to "cover up" (my definition) and
> "evade"
> > (you definition) the subject. This is not very polite, imho.
> >
> > Best,
> > Fale
> >
>  ok Fale, thank for pointing it out. I'll do better in the future.
>  Sorry about that Alex, I assume this is related to the frustration created
>  by Zanata imperfections over timewhich is not related to the subject.
>  

If you need any enhancements to Zanata or found any bug in it or its
workflow then please report it to http://zanata.org/issues/ or better
discuss on trans list. The Zanata developers are really helpful and quick
in fixing issues.

Regards,
Parag.