Wiki localization: patch wiki, or work with current tools ?

[Samuel Bizien]

Hi,

I'm Samuel Bizien, from l10n/fr team, working on wiki pages.

For few days now, we've been discussing the idea to improve localization
in the wiki, with websites list
(https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2007-June/msg00169.html).

The goal is to make easier for user to find the localized version of the
page he is reading (in english, most of time). We've set up a wikipage
to see how we could manage it manually:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
But it would be quite long to manage it this way.

So, is it possible to manage it automatically ? Is it easier to patch
wiki or to maintain these pages ?
I've heard (from Ville-Pekka Vainio) that this is a feature that may
appear in next version of moinmoin wiki. Could we patch our moinmoin
wiki from development version ?

Thanks for your answers.

Regards,

Samuel.

[Ville-Pekka Vainio]

Samuel Bizien kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika keskiviikko, 27. kesäkuu 2007 
11:40:48):
>  The goal is to make easier for user to find the localized version of
> the
>  page he is reading (in english, most of time). We've set up a wikipage
>  to see how we could manage it manually:
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>  But it would be quite long to manage it this way.
>
>  So, is it possible to manage it automatically ? Is it easier to patch
>  wiki or to maintain these pages ?
>  I've heard (from Ville-Pekka Vainio) that this is a feature that may
>  appear in next version of moinmoin wiki. Could we patch our moinmoin
>  wiki from development version ? 
I had a chat about this on #moin-dev yesterday evening. The Moin multilang 
implementation works as wikifarms, so that you have en.wiki.tld, de.wiki.tld 
etc. and it links the same pages in those wikis together. This also means 
that you need to have the same page names in all wikis, so they can't be 
localized.

An example of Moin multilang is at http://en.test.wikiwikiweb.de/TestWiki (de, 
en, fr in the top menu). It seems this is not the best option for Fedora 
Wiki, what do you think?

I actually like the examples you have set up. It seems Wikipedia uses bots to 
manage the lists of translations, maybe same kind of bots could be written 
for Moin?

-- 
Ville-Pekka Vainio
vpivaini(a)cs.helsinki.fi

[Samuel Bizien]

Le mercredi 27 juin 2007 à 12:15 +0300, Ville-Pekka Vainio a écrit :
>  Samuel Bizien kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika keskiviikko, 27.
> kesäkuu 2007 
>  11:40:48):
>  > The goal is to make easier for user to find the localized version of the
>  > page he is reading (in english, most of time). We've set up a wikipage
>  > to see how we could manage it manually:
>  > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>  > But it would be quite long to manage it this way.
>  >
>  > So, is it possible to manage it automatically ? Is it easier to patch
>  > wiki or to maintain these pages ?
>  > I've heard (from Ville-Pekka Vainio) that this is a feature that mayBut
>  > appear in next version of moinmoin wiki. Could we patch our moinmoin
>  > wiki from development version ?
>  
>  I had a chat about this on #moin-dev yesterday evening. The Moin multilang 
>  implementation works as wikifarms, so that you have en.wiki.tld, de.wiki.tld 
>  etc. and it links the same pages in those wikis together. This also means 
>  that you need to have the same page names in all wikis, so they can't be 
>  localized.
>  
>  An example of Moin multilang is at http://en.test.wikiwikiweb.de/TestWiki (de, 
>  en, fr in the top menu). It seems this is not the best option for Fedora 
>  Wiki, what do you think? 
Well ... i don't think it's the best solution,
you're right.
And thanks for the exaplanation about wikifarms (i searched on internet,
and found nothing yesterday).

>  I actually like the examples you have set up. It seems Wikipedia uses
> bots to 
>  manage the lists of translations, maybe same kind of bots could be written 
>  for Moin? 
Can the infrastructure do that ?

Maybe it could help to know that we (in french team) include the
original page name in our pages (the first line, commented). See, for
example, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/fr_FR/Infrastructure?action=raw .
If this was done for each translated pages, maybe it could be a way to
identify all translations of a page.

And, anyway, if we decide to use bots, we can start using subpages,
until bots are coded.


Samuel.

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Ville-Pekka Vainio έγραψε:
>  I had a chat about this on #moin-dev yesterday evening. The Moin
> multilang 
>  implementation works as wikifarms, so that you have en.wiki.tld, de.wiki.tld 
>  etc. and it links the same pages in those wikis together. This also means 
>  that you need to have the same page names in all wikis, so they can't be 
>  localized. 
Is there any other way to do it besides wikifarms? For example, by putting on
the header of the english page links to all others and from all others to the
english one (ie choose a language as the wiki's "main" lang)?

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Paulo Santos]

Here is my suggestion for the time being...
We will need to add this for each language that its fully translated in the
wiki

        RewriteCond     %{HTTP:Accept-Language} ^fr.*
        RewriteRule     ^/wiki/(.*)$     /wiki/$1_FR [R,L]

So mainly, if any request is done by a browser that accepts FR language,
rewrite the url to whatever it was + the language termination that we want.

The only downside is that we needed to manually add the languages...
What do you guys think ?!

Paulo

On 6/27/07, Dimitris Glezos <dimitris(a)glezos.com&gt; wrote:
>  O/H Ville-Pekka Vainio έγραψε:
>  > I had a chat about this on #moin-dev yesterday evening. The Moin
>  multilang
>  > implementation works as wikifarms, so that you have en.wiki.tld,
>  de.wiki.tld
>  > etc. and it links the same pages in those wikis together. This also
>  means
>  > that you need to have the same page names in all wikis, so they can't be
>  > localized.
>
>  Is there any other way to do it besides wikifarms? For example, by putting
>  on
>  the header of the english page links to all others and from all others to
>  the
>  english one (ie choose a language as the wiki's "main" lang)?
>
>  -d
>
>
>  --
>  Dimitris Glezos
>  Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
>  http://dimitris.glezos.com/
>
>  "He who gives up functionality for ease of use
>  loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
>  --
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Fedora-infrastructure-list mailing list
>  Fedora-infrastructure-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-infrastructure-list
>

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Paulo Santos έγραψε:
>  Here is my suggestion for the time being...
>  We will need to add this for each language that its fully translated in
>  the wiki 
FWIW, our wiki *does* support localization through simple Language dictionaries.
See:

  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FrenchDict

At a point you can spot:

  FedoraMain :: fr_FR/FedoraPrincipal

That line is used to automatically redirect a french browser to the french main
page of the wiki.

Our concern is how to present a language box for each page, showing links to the
other versions of the same page. This is somewhat the opposite of the above
language-based method, and would require for each page reload to scan all
language dictionaries and present only those that have the dictionary entry for
the particular page.

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Samuel Bizien]

Le jeudi 28 juin 2007 à 09:45 +0200, Paulo Santos a écrit :
>  Here is my suggestion for the time being...
>  We will need to add this for each language that its fully translated
>  in the wiki
>  
>          RewriteCond     %{HTTP:Accept-Language} ^fr.*
>          RewriteRule     ^/wiki/(.*)$     /wiki/$1_FR [R,L] 
>  
>  So mainly, if any request is done by a browser that accepts FR
>  language, rewrite the url to whatever it was + the language
>  termination that we want.
>  
>  The only downside is that we needed to manually add the languages... 
>  What do you guys think ?! 
Well ... I don't think it would work well.
Because:
1. For the moment, even the name of wikipages are localized (Join
becomes fr_FR/RejoindreFedora in French, de_DE/Beitreten in german ...).
But we could decide to use english name everywhere, if this was needed.
2. The wiki will never be fully localized (because there is changes
every hour).

As Dimitris, I think language boxes are better for localization, because
user can come back to localized version of wiki easily, when some pages
he asked for are not translated. And bots could, then, help us a lot.

About *Dict pages, do they work ? Some pages that are in FrenchDict does
not redirect me automatically to localized page.

Regards,

Samuel.