11:28 p.m.
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher <ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org> wrote:
to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
1.8 as targets?
--
Regards,
Sudhir Khanger,
sudhirkhanger.com,
github.com/donniezazen,
5577 8CDB A059 085D 1D60 807F 8C00 45D9 F5EF C394.
11:43 p.m.
New subject: Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger <ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com>
wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher
<ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org>
wrote:
> to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
1.8 as targets?
Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem.
F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but
also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents
it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7.
The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
F21.
Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any
point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be
built to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that
seems nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running
the build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
pointless endeavor.
--
Christopher L Tubbs II
http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
3:05 a.m.
New subject: Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
There are 3rd party plugins that won't just run on java 8 yet thus it is useful that
eclipse can still be run on older java versions.
Eclipse from eclipse.org is targeted at java 7.
/max
http://about.me/maxandersen
On 01 Nov 2014, at 05:43, Christopher
<ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger <ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher <ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org>
wrote:
> > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
>
> Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> 1.8 as targets?
Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem. F21
could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but also could have
run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there weren't any bootstrap classpath
problems that would have prevented such a build, which there are... but it may not matter
for Eclipse and its dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build
Eclipse for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents it
from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7. The fact that
there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address the bootstrap classpath
problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from
being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in F21.
Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any
point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually downloaded. I'm
not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be built to run on top of VMs that
are older than the ones provided... that seems nonsensical. Developing *for* those older
VMs, sure, but not running the build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a
completely pointless endeavor.
--
Christopher L Tubbs II
http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
--
java-devel mailing list
java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel
10:41 a.m.
New subject: Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher" <ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org>
To: "Sudhir Khanger" <ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com>
Cc: "Fedora Java Development List" <java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:43:17 AM
Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com >
wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher < ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org >
wrote:
> to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
1.8 as targets?
Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem.
F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but
also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents
it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7.
The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
F21.
Well, it's neither technical nor policy problem - it's resources problem. There is
no policy stating that there can be only OpenJDK8. As soon as people join in with the
ongoing maintenance of both upstream and downstream OpenJDK 7 the problem would be
solved.
Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any
point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be built
to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that seems
nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running the
build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
pointless endeavor.
Well, I think this is perfectly doable now. Install your own Java 7, add it as Installe
JRE, target it with your project. Is there something I miss ?
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
--
Christopher L Tubbs II
http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
--
java-devel mailing list
java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel
10:47 a.m.
New subject: Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
----- Original Message -----
From: "Max Rydahl Andersen" <manderse(a)redhat.com>
To: "Christopher" <ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org>
Cc: "Fedora Java Development List" <java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 10:05:46 AM
Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
There are 3rd party plugins that won't just run on java 8 yet thus it is
useful that eclipse can still be run on older java versions.
And there are Fedora Eclipse plugins (eclipse-fedorapackager, eclipse-pkgkit) which
require Java 8 so trying to target two Java versions when you don't even have them
both in Fedora is just a waste with current resources.
Eclipse from eclipse.org is targeted at java 7.
Upstream Eclipse will even run on Java 6, and so will Fedora's one as soon as you
install your own Java 6 compatible eclipse dependencies. Note this is not something that
is Eclipse specifics - every app that uses batik will now require Java 8 on Fedora. And
I'm 99% sure it's not only batik that enforces it.
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
/max
http://about.me/maxandersen
On 01 Nov 2014, at 05:43, Christopher < ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org > wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com >
wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher < ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org >
wrote:
> to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
1.8 as targets?
Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem.
F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but
also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents
it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7.
The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
F21.
Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any
point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be built
to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that seems
nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running the
build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
pointless endeavor.
--
Christopher L Tubbs II
http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
--
java-devel mailing list
java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel
--
java-devel mailing list
java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel
1:09 p.m.
New subject: Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Aleksandar Kurtakov <akurtako(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher" <ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org>
> To: "Sudhir Khanger" <ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com>
> Cc: "Fedora Java Development List"
<java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:43:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8
requirement
>
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com >
> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher < ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org
>
> wrote:
> > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
>
> Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> 1.8 as targets?
>
>
> Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the
problem.
> F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM,
but
> also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
> weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
> build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
> dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
> for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that
prevents
> it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java
7.
> The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
> the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
> policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
> F21.
Well, it's neither technical nor policy problem - it's resources problem.
There is no policy stating that there can be only OpenJDK8. As soon as
people join in with the ongoing maintenance of both upstream and downstream
OpenJDK 7 the problem would be solved.
The explanation I've seen multiple times now is that there was a decision
to
explicitly exclude OpenJDK7 from F21, because Oracle has Java 7
scheduled for EOL during the window of time where F21 is expected to be
supported. That sounds very much like policy. Both OpenJDK7 and OpenJDK8
lived side-by-side in F20 perfectly fine. It actually took effort to make
OpenJDK8 obsolete OpenJDK7, instead of just switching the default. I don't
know which would have taken greater effort, but it did sound to me like a
policy-based decision to do one vs. the other. It may only be a OpenJDK
package maintainer policy, not a Fedora or FESCo policy, though.
>
> Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's
any
> point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
> downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be
built
> to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that seems
> nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running the
> build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
> pointless endeavor.
Well, I think this is perfectly doable now. Install your own Java 7, add
it as Installe JRE, target it with your project. Is there something I miss ?
Yes, building other projects against 7, within Eclipse, is doable, now
which is why
I said I thought it was a pointless endeavor to rebuild
Eclipse such that it would run on Java 7. The only reason it might not be
pointless is if there are plugins that won't work in Eclipse if Eclipse
isn't running on 7... and somebody pointed out that that may be the case...
though I certainly wouldn't expect that to be the case with any Eclipse
plugins provided in Fedora.
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
>
> --
> Christopher L Tubbs II
> http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
>
>
> --
> java-devel mailing list
> java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel
7:58 p.m.
New subject: Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
On 1 November 2014 18:09, Christopher <ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Aleksandar Kurtakov <akurtako(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Christopher" <ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org>
> > To: "Sudhir Khanger" <ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com>
> > Cc: "Fedora Java Development List"
<java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:43:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8
requirement
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < ml(a)sudhirkhanger.com
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher <
ctubbsii-fedora(a)apache.org >
> > wrote:
> > > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
> >
> > Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> > 1.8 as targets?
> >
> >
> > Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the
problem.
> > F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided
Java 8
JVM, but
> > also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM
(assuming there
> > weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented
such a
> > build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse
and its
> > dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build
Eclipse
> > for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal
restriction that
prevents
> > it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was
built with
Java 7.
> > The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against
properly, to
address
> > the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem,
so much
as a
> > policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside
OpenJDK8
in
> > F21.
>
> Well, it's neither technical nor policy problem - it's resources
problem. There is no policy stating that there can be only OpenJDK8. As
soon as people join in with the ongoing maintenance of both upstream and
downstream OpenJDK 7 the problem would be solved.
>
The explanation I've seen multiple times now is that there was a decision
to
explicitly exclude OpenJDK7 from F21, because Oracle has Java 7
scheduled for EOL during the window of time where F21 is expected to be
supported. That sounds very much like policy.
That is sounds like policy is purely co-incidental. There really is no-one
stepping up to maintain it or backport security fixes after Java 7 is EOL.
--
Mat Booth
http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora
3463
days inactive
3464
days old
java-devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
6 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Aleksandar Kurtakov -
Christopher -
Mat Booth -
Max Rydahl Andersen -
Sudhir Khanger