2:52 p.m.
I would like to see "Gutenprint" added at some point for testing
purposes. It is getting pretty close to a release and it couldn't hurt
to have some more testing at this time.
Sean
3:02 p.m.
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:59 -0700, Sean Bruno wrote:
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 15:58 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> why not package it for extras for FC4?
Indeed, I could do such a thing. However, is printing something we want
to send off to "extras" ?
extras is a path to core.
Get it packaged for extras and it has an easier trip to get to core.
And if FC4's release has shown us anything it has shown us that "sending
off to extras" doesn't mean a whole lot. Extras is immediately
accessible via yum and from what I've heard from various folks being
fairly well received.
So yah - off in extras - but still extremely accessible. :)
-sv
3:02 p.m.
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 16:02 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:59 -0700, Sean Bruno wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 15:58 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > why not package it for extras for FC4?
>
> Indeed, I could do such a thing. However, is printing something we want
> to send off to "extras" ?
extras is a path to core.
Get it packaged for extras and it has an easier trip to get to core.
And if FC4's release has shown us anything it has shown us that "sending
off to extras" doesn't mean a whole lot. Extras is immediately
accessible via yum and from what I've heard from various folks being
fairly well received.
So yah - off in extras - but still extremely accessible. :)
-sv
Excellent idea, I will get started on this tonight...
Thanks for the input.
Sean
7:15 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: FC5 Wishlist
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 18:50 -0500, Kyle Pointer wrote:
> > extras is a path to core.
> No. Extras is the path to the dark side.
Why is that? or are you just being flippant?
Historically speaking, extras seem to be where packages go to die.
Or like a roach motel - "they check in but they don't check out".
-Dan
7:23 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: FC5 Wishlist
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 17:15 -0700, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 18:50 -0500, Kyle Pointer wrote:
> > > extras is a path to core.
> > No. Extras is the path to the dark side.
> Why is that? or are you just being flippant?
Historically speaking, extras seem to be where packages go to die.
Or like a roach motel - "they check in but they don't check out".
Historically speaking?
Are any of the packages in Fedora Extras 4 poorly maintained? Are any of
them languishing, unloved?
Are packages not being updated and new packages not being uploaded?
I don't think you can answer yes to any of those questions.
So before you talk about how extras is not doing well, show me some
evidence of that.
-sv
9:12 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: FC5 Wishlist
On 6/19/05, Dan Hollis <goemon(a)anime.net> wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 18:50 -0500, Kyle Pointer wrote:
> > > extras is a path to core.
> > No. Extras is the path to the dark side.
> Why is that? or are you just being flippant?
Historically speaking, extras seem to be where packages go to die.
Or like a roach motel - "they check in but they don't check out".
-Dan
Historically? How old is extras been around in this supported form?
I don't think either one of you know what you are talking about, if
there is something out dated, how about you send a patch in or a
package that isn't being maintained, how about you take it on?
The developers have been putting a lot of time in this to make extras
a FIRST class citizen so why don't you hug your local extras developer
today :)
9:29 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: FC5 Wishlist
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 17:15 -0700, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 18:50 -0500, Kyle Pointer wrote:
> > > extras is a path to core.
> > No. Extras is the path to the dark side.
> Why is that? or are you just being flippant?
Historically speaking, extras seem to be where packages go to die.
Isn't this the first release where packages have been moved to extras?
I think it is better for a package personally - some packages weren't
getting the attention they should of in core - but in extras, they are
maintained by people who actually WANT them.
Or like a roach motel - "they check in but they don't check out".
Must have your cvs misconfigured or something ;)
4:59 p.m.
søn, 19 06 2005 kl. 12:52 -0700, skrev Sean Bruno:
I would like to see "Gutenprint" added at some point for
testing
purposes. It is getting pretty close to a release and it couldn't hurt
to have some more testing at this time.
What about Gnome-Baker?
http://gnomebaker.sourceforge.net/
Regards
Bjorn Andersen
12:20 a.m.
Bjorn Andersen wrote:
søn, 19 06 2005 kl. 12:52 -0700, skrev Sean Bruno:
>I would like to see "Gutenprint" added at some point for testing
>purposes. It is getting pretty close to a release and it couldn't hurt
>to have some more testing at this time.
>
>
What about Gnome-Baker?
http://gnomebaker.sourceforge.net/
do you really need one more burning app ?
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2005-March/thread.html
GnomeBaker a Gnome burning app.
<snip>
From: Bjorn Andersen <ba(a)linuxin.dk>
Subject: Re: GnomeBaker a Gnome burning app.
To: For testers of Fedora Core development releases <fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:31:53 +0100
... and that app has a lot of development speed. ...
</snip>
i doubt ...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/gnomebaker/
http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?group_id=127397&ugn=gn...
--
shrek-m
8:01 a.m.
Yes i do.
The reason why i use Fedora is because its a Gnome dist. If i wanted K3B
i would be using SuSE.
/Bjorn
man, 20 06 2005 kl. 07:20 +0200, skrev shrek-m(a)gmx.de:
Bjorn Andersen wrote:
>søn, 19 06 2005 kl. 12:52 -0700, skrev Sean Bruno:
>
>
>>I would like to see "Gutenprint" added at some point for testing
>>purposes. It is getting pretty close to a release and it couldn't hurt
>>to have some more testing at this time.
>>
>>
>What about Gnome-Baker?
>http://gnomebaker.sourceforge.net/
>
>
do you really need one more burning app ?
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2005-March/thread.html
GnomeBaker a Gnome burning app.
<snip>
From: Bjorn Andersen <ba(a)linuxin.dk>
Subject: Re: GnomeBaker a Gnome burning app.
To: For testers of Fedora Core development releases <fedora-test-list(a)redhat.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:31:53 +0100
... and that app has a lot of development speed. ...
</snip>
i doubt ...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/gnomebaker/
http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?group_id=127397&ugn=gn...
--
shrek-m
10:16 a.m.
On 6/20/05, Bjorn Andersen <ba(a)linuxin.dk> wrote:
Yes i do.
The reason why i use Fedora is because its a Gnome dist. If i wanted K3B
i would be using SuSE.
/Bjorn
$ yum info graveman
Setting up repositories
Reading repository metadata in from local files
Available Packages
Name : graveman
Arch : i386
Version: 0.3.8
Release: 2
Size : 264 k
Repo : extras
Summary: A frontend for cdrtools, dvd+rw-tools and sox
Description:
Graveman! provides a graphical user interface for handling common CD/DVD
burning tasks. It can burn Audio CDs, Data CDs and DVDs, duplicate CDs,
and clean rewritable CD/DVD media.
1:44 p.m.
man, 20 06 2005 kl. 10:16 -0500, skrev Justin Conover:
$ yum info graveman
Setting up repositories
Reading repository metadata in from local files
Available Packages
Name : graveman
Arch : i386
Version: 0.3.8
Release: 2
Size : 264 k
Repo : extras
Summary: A frontend for cdrtools, dvd+rw-tools and sox
Description:
Graveman! provides a graphical user interface for handling common CD/DVD
burning tasks. It can burn Audio CDs, Data CDs and DVDs, duplicate CDs,
and clean rewritable CD/DVD media.
Ohh, im sorry.
I didnt know that Graveman was a Gnome burning app. Great burning
application btw, now i can dump Nero.
Regards
Bjorn Andersen
7:06 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Bjorn Andersen wrote:
I didnt know that Graveman was a Gnome burning app. Great burning
application btw, now i can dump Nero.
As long as you don't need to burn video DVD, then yes graveman is nice.
If you want to make video DVD then you have to use k3b (or growisofs).
-Dan
4:33 a.m.
11:34 a.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 02:33 -0700, Dan Hollis wrote:
mod_security
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=139778
7-zip
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=151956
pecl-cracklib
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=151962
gpilot *WORKING*
http://www.gnome.org
10:26 a.m.
As long as we are talking wishlist, I would like to see FC5 fully
support InfiniBand, from install to coming up.
-tduffy
10:50 a.m.
Tom Duffy wrote:
As long as we are talking wishlist, I would like to see FC5 fully
support InfiniBand, from install to coming up.
-tduffy
The following pages are useful if you want to add these information
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wishlist
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future
regards
Rahul
11:16 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 09:20:44PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>As long as we are talking wishlist, I would like to see FC5
fully
>support InfiniBand, from install to coming up.
The following pages are useful if you want to add these information
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wishlist
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future
I'm bored registering accounts all day for
yet-another-wiki-or-bugzilla-or-whatever.
Why not collect them in bugzilla.redhat.com, as "enhancement" and be
done with it?
*groan*
This here-a-wiki there-a-forum is just insane.
Regards,
Daniel
--
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11:18 a.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:16:52PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
Why not collect them in bugzilla.redhat.com, as
"enhancement" and be
done with it?
Adding to that: bugzilla already has the infrastructure to keep people
updated to what's happening too.
Regards,
Daniel
--
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11:58 a.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 18:18 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:16:52PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> Why not collect them in bugzilla.redhat.com, as "enhancement" and be
> done with it?
Adding to that: bugzilla already has the infrastructure to keep people
updated to what's happening too.
And it makes it just-short-of-impossible to find on your own.
-10
-sv
12:28 p.m.
Am Montag, den 20.06.2005, 12:58 -0400 schrieb seth vidal:
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 18:18 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:16:52PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> > Why not collect them in bugzilla.redhat.com, as "enhancement" and be
> > done with it?
> Adding to that: bugzilla already has the infrastructure to keep people
> updated to what's happening too.
And it makes it just-short-of-impossible to find on your own.
-10
Maybe create those bugs and use them as a tracker for other bugs that
are created to get things resolved? And of course those (tracker-)bugs
should be linked on FC5Future page in the wiki.
Just my 2 cents
--
Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora(a)leemhuis.info>
12:36 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 12:58:30PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 18:18 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:16:52PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> > Why not collect them in bugzilla.redhat.com, as "enhancement" and be
> > done with it?
>
> Adding to that: bugzilla already has the infrastructure to keep people
> updated to what's happening too.
And it makes it just-short-of-impossible to find on your own.
Hm? Where's the problem of doing a query against product Fedora Core,
severity "enhancement" and status not CLOSED or RESOLVED?
Best regards,
Daniel
--
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12:45 p.m.
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
Hm? Where's the problem of doing a query against product Fedora
Core,
severity "enhancement" and status not CLOSED or RESOLVED?
You mean this crap?
http://tinyurl.com/akh8t
711 bugs found. I'm really not sure 711 different enhancement
request make for a reasonable size list from which to really gain any
sort of feel as to what the important items for near term focus are
going to be.
-jef
12:56 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 01:45:06PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
> Hm? Where's the problem of doing a query against product Fedora Core,
> severity "enhancement" and status not CLOSED or RESOLVED?
You mean this crap?
Time to go thru them and clean up you mean?
Please post real direct URLs.
711 bugs found. I'm really not sure 711 different enhancement
request make for a reasonable size list from which to really gain any
sort of feel as to what the important items for near term focus are
going to be.
That's what tracker bugs are for.
Do you think Wikis where arbitrary dudes can edit around how they feel
as long as they do have an account are anywhere better? There's no
priorization too. But Bugzilla filings have the advantage that you have
all discussion on one idea in ONE place and people can easily track the
RFEs they are interested in (and take part in discussion or testing).
Regards,
Daniel
--
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1:01 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 01:59:28PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> Do you think Wikis where arbitrary dudes can edit around how
they feel
> as long as they do have an account are anywhere better?
1. arbitrary people cannot edit the fedoraproject wiki. There are ACLs
for a reason.
So what's the point of that then? If not anybody can file feature
requests?
2. all good wikis have rollback mechanisms.
And who decides what will be rolled back and thus ignored?
Guys. Use request/bug trackers like Bugzilla for what they are designed.
I'm getting more and more annoyed by this "Wiki hype". Everytime this
overboards I'm being reminded on the saying "when all you have is a
hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail".
Wikis are simple to set up, but they are just the wrong tool for the
job. IMHO. YMMV.
Regards,
Daniel
--
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1:09 p.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:01 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
So what's the point of that then? If not anybody can file
feature
requests?
There is an edit list. You have to be known by somebody in the wiki
already to add you to the edit list. Prevents the bot and medium casual
spammer.
> 2. all good wikis have rollback mechanisms.
And who decides what will be rolled back and thus ignored?
Any person with admin access can do a rollback to a previous unpammed
version. I don't know what you mean by 'thus ignored'.
--
Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net)
Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org)
GPG Public Key
(http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)
Was I helpful? Let others know:
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating
1:14 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 11:09:14AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:01 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> So what's the point of that then? If not anybody can file feature
> requests?
There is an edit list. You have to be known by somebody in the wiki
already to add you to the edit list. Prevents the bot and medium
casual spammer.
Jup. So the hurdle to file something is even higher. Not only do you
need just-another-account-somewhere, you also need to be "known" and
"trusted".
> > 2. all good wikis have rollback mechanisms.
>
> And who decides what will be rolled back and thus ignored?
Any person with admin access can do a rollback to a previous unpammed
version. I don't know what you mean by 'thus ignored'.
People suggested that when people are allowed to file whatever RFEs
they like, those become too many. People said that there is a rollback
mechanism to counter that. I ask who decides what gets rolled back.
We're not talking about wiping spam, but editorial work. In the form
it is now is just one page with a long list of ideas.
So, what is now the advantage of just-another-wiki compared to a
full-blown request/bug tracking system, which outweights all the
advantages of that?
Regards,
Daniel
--
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1:19 p.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:14 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 11:09:14AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:01 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> > So what's the point of that then? If not anybody can file feature
> > requests?
>
> There is an edit list. You have to be known by somebody in the wiki
> already to add you to the edit list. Prevents the bot and medium
> casual spammer.
Jup. So the hurdle to file something is even higher. Not only do you
need just-another-account-somewhere, you also need to be "known" and
"trusted".
> > > 2. all good wikis have rollback mechanisms.
> >
> > And who decides what will be rolled back and thus ignored?
>
> Any person with admin access can do a rollback to a previous unpammed
> version. I don't know what you mean by 'thus ignored'.
People suggested that when people are allowed to file whatever RFEs
they like, those become too many. People said that there is a rollback
mechanism to counter that. I ask who decides what gets rolled back.
We're not talking about wiping spam, but editorial work. In the form
it is now is just one page with a long list of ideas.
So, what is now the advantage of just-another-wiki compared to a
full-blown request/bug tracking system, which outweights all the
advantages of that?
right now the advantage is that:
1. we have it
2. people use it
3. people like it
so since it seems like you don't like it you're invited to NOT USE IT.
presto-change-o.
-sv
1:13 p.m.
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/akh8t
Please post real direct URLs.
Ask and you shall receive
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&am...
That's what tracker bugs are for.
And at certain points in
the development phase Blocker and Target
trackers for a release are created as a tool for Core developers.
Do you think Wikis where arbitrary dudes can edit around how they
feel
as long as they do have an account are anywhere better? There's no
priorization too. But Bugzilla filings have the advantage that you have
all discussion on one idea in ONE place and people can easily track the
RFEs they are interested in (and take part in discussion or testing).
I'm not arguing that bugzilla entries aren't a good idea. You should
file your enhancements against the bugzilla component that makes sense
to let the current developers and maintainers know about it. But the
bugzilla interface is not necessarily the best way to communicate
plans and feature requests to potential contributors who might be
willing to dig in and work on an item. I find this resistence to
exploring alternative avenues of communication... amusing...
considering the fact that this mailinglist is a hallmark of
duplication.
-jef
1:26 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 02:13:20PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
> > http://tinyurl.com/akh8t
>
> Please post real direct URLs.
Ask and you shall receive
And if you wouldn't have broken it for the last part, I could have just
clicked on it in gnome-terminal to open the URL.
And now the URL is usable when read in archives and tinyurl gone out of
business. :-)
> Do you think Wikis where arbitrary dudes can edit around how
they feel
> as long as they do have an account are anywhere better? There's no
> priorization too. But Bugzilla filings have the advantage that you have
> all discussion on one idea in ONE place and people can easily track the
> RFEs they are interested in (and take part in discussion or testing).
I'm not arguing that bugzilla entries aren't a good idea. You should
file your enhancements against the bugzilla component that makes sense
to let the current developers and maintainers know about it. But the
bugzilla interface is not necessarily the best way to communicate
plans and feature requests to potential contributors who might be
willing to dig in and work on an item.
Then work on a script which generates a web page out of not-closed
bugzilla RFEs in pretty-print, with links to the bug filings. Then you
have your pretty overview for people who can't query bugzilla for RFEs.
I find this resistence to exploring alternative avenues of
communication... amusing...
I find hyping Wikis for everything that remotely resembles "information"
annoying.
Use the right tool for the job.
It's hard to track things in a Wiki, but it's not a real problem to
generate easier presentation forms for request/bug-tracking systems.
considering the fact that this mailinglist is a hallmark of
duplication.
Well, I don't fully understand the seperation of fedora-devel and -test
either. But having bad examples doesn't excuse making the mess even
bigger. See also the "web forum" thing regarding end user question
support. There was AND IS fedora-list, (now) _and_ "web forums". Can we
please decide to EITHER use mailing list OR clickety-click-all-colorful?
Anyway, I'll rest my case. Looks like I'm the only one preferring
request/bug trackers and mailing lists over the stylish new things like
"web forums" and Wikis. Perhaps because for me not everything looks like
a nail yet.
Regards,
Daniel
--
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1:31 p.m.
Hi
Then work on a script which generates a web page out of not-closed
bugzilla RFEs in pretty-print, with links to the bug filings. Then you
have your pretty overview for people who can't query bugzilla for RFEs.
are you volunteering to do that. We would love to have such wonderful
scripts
Well, I don't fully understand the seperation of fedora-devel and
-test
either.
There is a difference between testing and development.
But having bad examples doesn't excuse making the mess even
bigger. See also the "web forum" thing regarding end user question
support. There was AND IS fedora-list, (now) _and_ "web forums". Can we
please decide to EITHER use mailing list OR clickety-click-all-colorful?
some people prefer forums. others prefer mailing lists. You can force
everyone to use the same medium
regards
Rahul
1:43 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 12:01:22AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>Then work on a script which generates a web page out of
not-closed
>bugzilla RFEs in pretty-print, with links to the bug filings. Then you
>have your pretty overview for people who can't query bugzilla for RFEs.
are you volunteering to do that. We would love to have such wonderful
scripts
No, I'm not. I don't see a problem that is to be solved.
>Well, I don't fully understand the seperation of fedora-devel
and -test
>either.
There is a difference between testing and development.
Not really. The seperation between the lists is supposed to be "test
releases" and "rawhide". Can you name anyone who is only interested in
-test but not -devel? Or in -devel but not -test? I doubt there are
(m)any. Test releases are basically devel snapshots.
>But having bad examples doesn't excuse making the mess even
>bigger. See also the "web forum" thing regarding end user question
>support. There was AND IS fedora-list, (now) _and_ "web forums". Can we
>please decide to EITHER use mailing list OR clickety-click-all-colorful?
>
some people prefer forums. others prefer mailing lists. You can force
everyone to use the same medium
Yes you can. Otherwise you force other people to monitor MULTIPLE places
instead of just one. And mailing lists are easy to monitor, compared to
the clicky-click orgys of "web forums". And of course, it just
duplicates efforts (same questions to answer or topics to discuss in
multiple places). The usual excuse for such "web forums" are bad MUA
software. Educate people to use proper software, and suddenly mailing
lists are fine. Don't try to cure symptoms, fix the root causes.
Guys, following all that stuff is already very hard. Don't make it
harder and harder by constantly opening new venues to monitor.
Regards,
Daniel
--
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1:47 p.m.
Hi
Not really. The seperation between the lists is supposed to be
"test
releases" and "rawhide". Can you name anyone who is only interested in
-test but not -devel? Or in -devel but not -test? I doubt there are
(m)any. Test releases are basically devel snapshots.
No. its not. devel list is about discussing related to development. say
what are the good things to have for FC5. This list is about
discussions about what works or breaks during rawhide or during the
testing packages which goes into the previous versions as an update.
>>But having bad examples doesn't excuse making the mess even
>>bigger. See also the "web forum" thing regarding end user question
>>support. There was AND IS fedora-list, (now) _and_ "web forums". Can we
>>please decide to EITHER use mailing list OR clickety-click-all-colorful?
>>
>>
>>
>some people prefer forums. others prefer mailing lists. You can force
>everyone to use the same medium
>
>
Yes you can. Otherwise you force other people to monitor MULTIPLE places
instead of just one.
No. Nobody forces you. You choose to use what medium you want to use and
stick with that.
regards
Rahul
1:47 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 08:43:13PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
Not really. The seperation between the lists is supposed to be
"test
releases" and "rawhide".
No, the separation is supposed to be
"testing test releases" and
"developing Fedora". I don't know where user problems when testing
rawhide fit in, but -devel certainly isn't the right place.
Mirek
1:59 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 08:47:45PM +0200, Miloslav Trmac wrote:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 08:43:13PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> Not really. The seperation between the lists is supposed to be "test
> releases" and "rawhide".
No, the separation is supposed to be "testing test releases" and
"developing Fedora". I don't know where user problems when testing
rawhide fit in, but -devel certainly isn't the right place.
Sure it is. Testing rawhide is part of development.
Don't overcomplicate things! Micromanagement kills.
Regards,
Daniel
--
CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: dr(a)cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0
2:06 p.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:59 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 08:47:45PM +0200, Miloslav Trmac wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 08:43:13PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> > Not really. The seperation between the lists is supposed to be "test
> > releases" and "rawhide".
> No, the separation is supposed to be "testing test releases" and
> "developing Fedora". I don't know where user problems when testing
> rawhide fit in, but -devel certainly isn't the right place.
Sure it is. Testing rawhide is part of development.
Don't overcomplicate things! Micromanagement kills.
I'm pretty sure having this conversation kills.
Do you realize how completely arrogant and annoying it is to come in and
tell us how everything we're doing is wrong even though you've never
contributed a single thing?
How about this:
First, contribute usefully to the distribution development.
Second, tell us how to fix some of the processes in place.
-sv
2:17 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 03:06:49PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
Do you realize how completely arrogant and annoying it is to come in
and
tell us how everything we're doing is wrong even though you've never
contributed a single thing?
You might want to check facts before making accusations. Start with
querying bugzilla.
How about this:
First, contribute usefully to the distribution development.
Second, tell us how to fix some of the processes in place.
Fixing processes IS contribution.
--
CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: dr(a)cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0
2:32 p.m.
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/20/05, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)redhat.com> wrote:
>are you volunteering to do that. We would love to have such wonderful
>scripts
>
>
What information out of bugzilla would you like? Can you mock up a
fake 3 item list layout somewhere as a target.
-jef
Not really comfortable about my mockup skills but taking a RFE tracker
in bugzilla along with its bug components and presenting them into a
page that looks more like the wiki page would be more end user
friendly. Currently there might be a lack of coordination between what
is represented in bugzilla and what is proposed in the wiki pages which
I suspect is what Dan Hollis wants to communicate through
regards
Rahul
3:41 p.m.
On 6/20/05, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Not really comfortable about my mockup skills but taking a RFE
tracker
in bugzilla along with its bug components and presenting them into a
page that looks more like the wiki page would be more end user
friendly.
Do you REALLY want ALL the open rfe's on a wiki page? I link like the
query url i created already for this list would accomplish the basics
of giving a summary of all open rfes. I'm not sure its worth the
effort to pretty up the whole long list. You can certaintly attempt
to build a tracker bug and make open rfes dependants to that bug. But
I think you want to take a few moments to think about what the tracker
is actually meant to track. Are these going to be rfes developers have
decided to implement in the next release cycle? Are this going to be
rfes developers would like to see implemented but can't make a high
enough priority to do themselves? What's the potential payoff to
having each developer to use the new tracker bug? Personally I think
the best possible tracker bug in the rfe space would be to track rfe's
the developers/maintainers are interested in but are a lower personal
priority. Items people in the community could take a lead in, and that
the Core developers would be receptive to incorporating. Or in other
words a "Please work on this" list.
Currently there might be a lack of coordination between what
is represented in bugzilla and what is proposed in the wiki pages which
I suspect is what Dan Hollis wants to communicate through
There certaintly is a coordination problem... but its marginally
better than watching ideas float by on long winding discussion thread
in the mailing list where the discussion wanders onto a tagential
topic without a subject change because people like myself can't seem
to be bothered to start a new thread.
-jef
1:49 p.m.
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
And now the URL is usable when read in archives and tinyurl gone out
of
business. :-)
Using tinyurl is also a bad security practice, since there is no
telling what hides behind the link -- from something sophomoric like
goatse, to a specially-crafted online form that submits threatening
email to your members of parliament. If the first one just results in
burned retinas, the second one will probably involve an unpleasant
chit-chat with your local or federal law enforcement authorities.
So, please, no tinyurls.
Regards,
--
Konstantin Ryabitsev
Zlotniks, INC
"Выслухаў мядзьведзь казку і адарваў сабе хвост."
2:02 p.m.
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
Then work on a script which generates a web page out of not-closed
bugzilla RFEs in pretty-print, with links to the bug filings. Then you
have your pretty overview for people who can't query bugzilla for RFEs.
Actually.. no... it wouldnt... I think part of the point of the wiki
page is to hilight certain feature requests where there is some
agreement that this is a worthwhile feature.. a feature worth showing
to potential contributors and encouraging them to work on. Another
point of the wiki pages was to provide an editorial summary of
discussions that happen here on the mailinglists. The wiki is NOT
meant to replace bugzilla as a tracking tool. Its meant to supplement
discussion which sprawls over month long circular threads in the
mailinglists to provide a central point of information and informed
opinion about what people are thinking and already talking about about
in the lists.
That process the wiki is being used for is editorial in nature,
something a wiki is very good at and something the pretty-print script
output wouldn't be. I fully expect the wishlist of features in the
wiki to be smaller than the number of open rfes in bugzilla. And I
fully expect the wishlist to be narrowed down on informed review in a
way that the bugzilla enhancements are not. If you don't want to
participate in that wiki experiment.. feel free to ignore any further
requests Rahul or anyone else makes to add content to the wiki.
I find hyping Wikis for everything that remotely resembles
"information"
annoying.
Either it will be a popular tool or it won't be. I believe you have
expressed your opinion. Now that its on record in the lists you won't
have to express your opinion again. I'm sure when the wiki issue comes
up again everyone who wants your opinion can easily access the
mainglist archives and find your opinion on the matter. There will be
absolutely no need to duplicate your opinion again anywhere on the
internet.
Well, I don't fully understand the seperation of fedora-devel and
-test
either.
No.. inside a single list... there is continuous duplication of
discussion especially for long lived subjects. Thre is a constant
influx of new people on the lists..people who do not go back and read
archives...even from the previous day.
But having bad examples doesn't excuse making the mess even
bigger. See also the "web forum" thing regarding end user question
support. There was AND IS fedora-list, (now) _and_ "web forums". Can we
please decide to EITHER use mailing list OR clickety-click-all-colorful?
Why must we have just one? I'm sure some people are more comfortable
with the mailinglist some are more comfortable with a webforum... some
are more comfortable with irc.... some i would imagine would prefer a
usenet group. You are free to use the method that you prefer. There
is no absolute best technology for discussion. Even if the project
made a formal decree and made ONE form of communication the one true
way and forbid all other forms of communication.. community would
still go on using the other ways of communication. But I look forward
to the clockwork efficiency of Earth's future under your benevolent
rule.
Anyway, I'll rest my case. Looks like I'm the only one preferring
request/bug trackers and mailing lists over the stylish new things like
"web forums" and Wikis. Perhaps because for me not everything looks like
a nail yet.
Its more likely you misunderstand what is going on.. and are assuming
that people are trying to replace bugzilla as a tracking tool with the
wiki... which is not the case. Its far better to think of the wiki as
an editorial supplement to the discussions in the mailinglists and the
forums. And clearly... by your participation on the lists.. you see
that bugzilla isn't where you hold all discussion. The wishlists on
the wiki are there to provide editorial summaries of on going
discussions in the community facing channels.. like this list.
-jef
2:25 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 03:02:23PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
> Then work on a script which generates a web page out of not-closed
> bugzilla RFEs in pretty-print, with links to the bug filings. Then you
> have your pretty overview for people who can't query bugzilla for RFEs.
Actually.. no... it wouldnt... I think part of the point of the wiki
page is to hilight certain feature requests where there is some
agreement that this is a worthwhile feature..
Agreement between whom?
Another point of the wiki pages was to provide an
editorial summary of discussions that happen here on the mailinglists.
That's fine. But then the comment "add it to the Wiki" toward people who
bring up ideas on the mailing lists is just wrong. And exactly that
happened and was what I commented on.
The wiki is NOT meant to replace bugzilla as a tracking tool. Its
meant to supplement discussion which sprawls over month long circular
threads in the
mailinglists to provide a central point of information and informed
opinion about what people are thinking and already talking about about
in the lists.
Fact is that someone proposed InfiniBand support and another one (Rahul)
has sent him to the Wiki to add it there. So he promoted the Wiki as
the means to collect RFEs.
> I find hyping Wikis for everything that remotely resembles
"information"
> annoying.
Either it will be a popular tool or it won't be.
I believe you have
expressed your opinion. Now that its on record in the lists you won't
have to express your opinion again. I'm sure when the wiki issue comes
up again everyone who wants your opinion can easily access the
mainglist archives and find your opinion on the matter. There will be
absolutely no need to duplicate your opinion again anywhere on the
internet.
You need many words for a simple "STFU".
>But having bad examples doesn't excuse making the mess even
> bigger. See also the "web forum" thing regarding end user question
> support. There was AND IS fedora-list, (now) _and_ "web forums". Can we
> please decide to EITHER use mailing list OR clickety-click-all-colorful?
Why must we have just one?
I've answered this question already in verbosity. Just don't ignore the
arguments presented.
But I look forward to the clockwork efficiency of Earth's future
under
your benevolent rule.
Now you resort to personal attacks. How cheap.
Its more likely you misunderstand what is going on.. and are
assuming
that people are trying to replace bugzilla as a tracking tool with the
wiki... which is not the case.
Then don't promote it as such like Rahul did.
--
CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: dr(a)cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0
2:27 p.m.
Daniel Roesen wrote:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 03:02:23PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
>On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
>
>
>>Then work on a script which generates a web page out of not-closed
>>bugzilla RFEs in pretty-print, with links to the bug filings. Then you
>>have your pretty overview for people who can't query bugzilla for RFEs.
>>
>>
>Actually.. no... it wouldnt... I think part of the point of the wiki
>page is to hilight certain feature requests where there is some
>agreement that this is a worthwhile feature..
>
>
Agreement between whom?
Between developers working on it
>Another point of the wiki pages was to provide an
>editorial summary of discussions that happen here on the mailinglists.
>
>
That's fine. But then the comment "add it to the Wiki" toward people who
bring up ideas on the mailing lists is just wrong. And exactly that
happened and was what I commented on.
>The wiki is NOT meant to replace bugzilla as a tracking tool. Its
>meant to supplement discussion which sprawls over month long circular
>threads in the
>mailinglists to provide a central point of information and informed
>opinion about what people are thinking and already talking about about
>in the lists.
>
>
Fact is that someone proposed InfiniBand support and another one (Rahul)
has sent him to the Wiki to add it there. So he promoted the Wiki as
the means to collect RFEs.
No reason you couldnt file RFE's in bugzilla and add them to the wiki page
regards
Rahul
2:33 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 12:57:30AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>Actually.. no... it wouldnt... I think part of the point of
the wiki
>>page is to hilight certain feature requests where there is some
>>agreement that this is a worthwhile feature..
>
>Agreement between whom?
Between developers working on it
[...]
>Fact is that someone proposed InfiniBand support and another one
(Rahul)
>has sent him to the Wiki to add it there. So he promoted the Wiki as
>the means to collect RFEs.
No reason you couldnt file RFE's in bugzilla and add them to the
wiki page
Sure there is, like you confirmed as quoted above: There has to be "some
agreement" first to qualify for the Wiki list as I'm being told, and you
confirmed above.
It seems you need to make up your mind about the Wiki. Either you send
people directly there to add RFEs to a list there, OR you want to have
the Wiki as editorial summary for things there is "some agreement"
with.
If "some consensus" is necessary, you can't send people directly there.
If there isn't a necessity of "some consensus", the Wiki makes no sense
as the editorial idea is lost. You contradict yourself.
Regards,
Daniel
--
CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: dr(a)cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0
2:38 p.m.
Hi
If "some consensus" is necessary, you can't send people
directly there.
If there isn't a necessity of "some consensus", the Wiki makes no sense
as the editorial idea is lost. You contradict yourself.
I wasnt talking about any editorial ideas, so no contradiction there.
Anyway I think whatever there is to be discussed about this has already
happened. So I will stop feeding more inputs
regards
Rahul
3:14 p.m.
i wished it had as many isos as debian 30 disks of stuff
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
> If "some consensus" is necessary, you can't send people directly
there.
> If there isn't a necessity of "some consensus", the Wiki makes no
sense
> as the editorial idea is lost. You contradict yourself.
>
>
I wasnt talking about any editorial ideas, so no contradiction there.
Anyway I think whatever there is to be discussed about this has
already happened. So I will stop feeding more inputs
regards
Rahul
3:17 p.m.
On 6/20/05, Daniel Roesen <dr(a)cluenet.de> wrote:
I've answered this question already in verbosity. Just don't
ignore the
arguments presented.
Pardon me, from now on I'll make sure to to check for new thread posts
in my inbox before I hit the send button. That's what I get for
actually taking the time to spell check a post for once. Here's what
I'll do.. from now on 'll travel 10 minutes into the future, long
enough to account for any lag in mail delivery of your post to make
sure there is no chance that I'll be sending a response that covers
information you yourself are responding to at the same time I'm
responding. Man think about how many software race conditions could be
solved with that 10-minute into the future technology. I think I smell
a patent.
> Its more likely you misunderstand what is going on.. and are
assuming
> that people are trying to replace bugzilla as a tracking tool with the
> wiki... which is not the case.
Then don't promote it as such like Rahul did.
I'm promoting it? I don't think I've promoted anything. I think Rahul
can vouch for the fact that I've voiced my own pointed concerns about
duplication of information. I'm personally, not overly concerned with
information in the wiki going unnoticed or not finding its way into
bugzilla as an rfe. I'm much more concerned about information and
ideas being lost in the morass of the mailinglists. You are free to
disagree with what some people are trying to do with the wiki, at
least until someone decides that the wiki is the one true way to
communicate and shuts down other forms of communication and uses
neural implant technology to govern whatever thoughts you might have
that contradict the official order.
-jef"okay well I promote KK doughnuts and tequila a lot... but not in
this thread. I swear.. I will not promote KK doughnuts and tequila in
this thread. Now I need to go eat a KK doughnut and drink a shot of
tequila."spaleta
2:19 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 18:18 +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:16:52PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote:
> > Why not collect them in bugzilla.redhat.com, as "enhancement" and be
> > done with it?
> Adding to that: bugzilla already has the infrastructure to keep people
> updated to what's happening too.
And it makes it just-short-of-impossible to find on your own.
I think something like a bugzilla meta-bug "master bug" to
track/organize/prioritize enhancements for FC5 would be useful. Can
bugzilla do anything like that?
-Dan
11:23 a.m.
Daniel Roesen wrote:
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 09:20:44PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>>As long as we are talking wishlist, I would like to see FC5 fully
>>support InfiniBand, from install to coming up.
>>
>>
>The following pages are useful if you want to add these information
>
>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wishlist
>http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future
>
>
I'm bored registering accounts all day for
yet-another-wiki-or-bugzilla-or-whatever.
Why not collect them in bugzilla.redhat.com, as "enhancement" and be
done with it?
go ahead and do it then
regards
Rahul
4:57 p.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 21:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
The following pages are useful if you want to add these information
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wishlist
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future
It won't let me edit any page including my page!
What am I doing wrong here?
-tduffy
--
I wish we lived in the America of yesteryear that only exists in the
minds of us Republicans.
-- Ned Flanders
5:05 p.m.
On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 03:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You need to be in the edit group. If you arent going to maintain or
update any of the pages frequently. File them as RFE's in bugzilla and
pass on the numbers here.
This makes the wiki absolutely useless. The whole point is that anybody
can dive in.
Forget about it.
-tduffy
--
I wish we lived in the America of yesteryear that only exists in the
minds of us Republicans.
-- Ned Flanders
5:07 p.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 15:05 -0700, Tom Duffy wrote:
On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 03:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> You need to be in the edit group. If you arent going to maintain or
> update any of the pages frequently. File them as RFE's in bugzilla and
> pass on the numbers here.
This makes the wiki absolutely useless. The whole point is that anybody
can dive in.
No, it makes it so the wiki isn't constantly trashed with spam about
casinos and links to goatse.cx
Forget about it.
well I'm glad you're so willing to help out! :)
-sv
5:15 p.m.
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
You need to be in the edit group. If you arent going to maintain or
update any of the pages frequently. File them as RFE's in bugzilla and
pass on the numbers here.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=156790
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=139778
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=151956
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=151962
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155271
-Dan
5:26 p.m.
Dan Hollis wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>You need to be in the edit group. If you arent going to maintain or
>update any of the pages frequently. File them as RFE's in bugzilla and
>pass on the numbers here.
>
>
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=156790
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=139778
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=151956
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=151962
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=155271
-Dan
You have provided these multiple times already. The packages that should
be in extras repository will be added to the extras wishlist. Rest of
them will be added to the core wish list ot FC5 page depending on the
developer working on these projects. I will confirm and add it as
appropriate. Thanks
regards
Rahul
12:24 a.m.
I've been lurking in this thread - I'm NOT to get into any arguments -
but I do think there could be a better way of _package_ RFE's than the
wiki or bugzilla.
A simple page where a user can input the name of the desired package, a
url to the homepage, a brief description, and select a category from a
drop down menu.
This would be something that extras maintainers looking to contribute
could go through.
A mechanism by which users interested in that package could add their
e-mail address as a "me too" kind of thing.
This would make it stupidly trivial for an Extras packager working on
the package to get potential QA testers to try it out.
6916
days inactive
6918
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62 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Bjorn Andersen -
Dan Hollis -
Daniel Roesen -
Jef Spaleta -
Jesse Keating -
Justin Conover -
Konstantin Ryabitsev -
Kyle Pointer -
Michael A. Peters -
Miloslav Trmač -
mitch epling -
Rahul Sundaram -
Sean Bruno -
seth vidal -
shrek-m＠gmx.de -
Thorsten Leemhuis -
Tom Duffy