primorec writes:
short description of the problem: I would like to automagically change the working directory from $HOME to, for example, /proj/$USER after the $USER logs into the machine via the graphical (GUI) login (aka gdm). So, when the $USER opens new terminal, he/she should be in /proj/$USER and __not__ in $HOME [side note: I am using tsch as my $SHELL]
oo: no, putting 'cd /proj/$USER' into .cshrc is _not_ the solution
oo: yes, putting 'cd /proj/$USER' into .login works if the user logs into the machine using CLI login and then starts the desktop with 'startx' OR if he/she logs to the machine via ssh|telnet. It does not work for gdm (aka graphical login)
oo: no, adding 'cd /proj/$USER' to the file Default or Xsession does __not__ work.
/etc/gdm/PostLogin/Default /etc/gdm/PreSession/Default /etc/gdm/Xsession
oo: no, I do not want to change variable $HOME to point to /proj/$USER
oo: no, I do not want to modify /etc/passwd file
Simply put, I am out of ideas. Any hint, RTFM pointer or solution is appreciated.
Igor _______________________________________________ gdm-list mailing list gdm-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gdm-list
As we've been testing GDM for accessibility support on Fedora 9, we continue to note the lack of audio support. This means that a screen reader user has no way to know when it's OK to login.
There is no "beep" on backspace at the Login and Passwd entry. More seriously still:
SoundOnLogin=true SoundOnLoginFile=[some].wav
in /etc/gdm/custom.conf continues broken.
Of course we're needing the additional benefit of starting Orca for TTS via Ctrl-s, Orca with braille via Ctrl-b, etc. I can't comment on anything other than sound myself, but will be happy to investigate the other gestures if that's desired. But, what should we expect for sound?
Janina
On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 10:28 -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
As we've been testing GDM for accessibility support on Fedora 9, we continue to note the lack of audio support. This means that a screen reader user has no way to know when it's OK to login.
There is no "beep" on backspace at the Login and Passwd entry. More seriously still:
SoundOnLogin=true SoundOnLoginFile=[some].wav
in /etc/gdm/custom.conf continues broken.
Of course we're needing the additional benefit of starting Orca for TTS via Ctrl-s, Orca with braille via Ctrl-b, etc. I can't comment on anything other than sound myself, but will be happy to investigate the other gestures if that's desired. But, what should we expect for sound?
What version are you trying out ? Ray has been fixing the speech support in gdm; and I have had orca read the user list to me, personally.
If you could compile a list of 'standard' keyboard shortcuts for a11y on the login screen, that would be very useful, and we'll make sure to have them implemented asap.
Thanks, Matthias
Matthias Clasen writes:
On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 10:28 -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
As we've been testing GDM for accessibility support on Fedora 9, we continue to note the lack of audio support. This means that a screen reader user has no way to know when it's OK to login.
There is no "beep" on backspace at the Login and Passwd entry. More seriously still:
SoundOnLogin=true SoundOnLoginFile=[some].wav
in /etc/gdm/custom.conf continues broken.
Of course we're needing the additional benefit of starting Orca for TTS via Ctrl-s, Orca with braille via Ctrl-b, etc. I can't comment on anything other than sound myself, but will be happy to investigate the other gestures if that's desired. But, what should we expect for sound?
What version are you trying out ? Ray has been fixing the speech support in gdm; and I have had orca read the user list to me, personally.
Interesting. We ourselves have not gotten it to work on several machines here during the F-9 beta cycle. In fact, we've not gotten Ctrl-S gestures to start reading via Orca since F-7. In fact, we've not gotten Ctrl-S gestures to start reading via Orca since F-7. In fact, we've not gotten Ctrl-S gestures to start reading via Orca since F-7. In fact, we've not gotten Ctrl-S gestures to start reading via Orca since F-7.
Our F-9 machines are all now running gdm-2.22.0-1.fc9. This includes both i386 and x86_64.
Another problem for all of this, as I understand things, is pulseaudio which isn't available until AFTER a successful login. Thus, there's nothing to play sound, by default, even once SoundOnLogin is restored in GDM. If we disable pulseaudio, we still don't have SoundOnLogin from the newer GDM, of course. Hopefully, GDM will add that back. It's important for screen reader users, needless to say. On F-8, with pulseaudio disabled and running GDM-2.20, we do have SoundOnLogin.
If you could compile a list of 'standard' keyboard shortcuts for a11y on the login screen, that would be very useful, and we'll make sure to have them implemented asap.
I believe the following would be noncontroversial:
Ctrl-S Start Orca with speech Ctrl-B Start Orca with braille Ctrl-M Start Orca with magnification
However, we need to consider the wider range of a11y issues as has already been suggested. I support the suggestion to create a page for considering various dwell and aother alternate input approaches.
Thanks for your prompt response on this.
Janina
Thanks, Matthias
-- fedora-test-list mailing list fedora-test-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
We discussed gestures that could launch AT login support in response to my first post on this thread, but I don't recall anyone addressing the other topic--the one in the Subject: line. --
What is the plan for SoundOnLogin=true ? Is it coming back? Should I just be patient?
And, what's the thought on providing audio device support at this stage? Under the default pulseaudio, configuration the audio device isn't available until after the login succeeds. Clearly, this is a problem for the eyes-free user who requires a sonic cue to know when to proceed with the login ritual. Consider if the screen never painted the login dialog. How would that work for users waiting for that screen to display? That's very much the situation we screen reader users now find ourselves in.
Lastly, let me note that there's a security dimension here that can only be solved by clearing up a11y login. Without appropriate At support, it's not all that hard to get out of sync with the GDM dialog and put one's password where the login ID belongs. I could show you my logs, but I wouldn't want to share my password. Unfortunately, it's there--in my logs.
Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.202.595.7777; sip:janina@a11y.org Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com
Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com
Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org Linux Foundation http://a11y.org
I've done some testing of accessibility support on GDM, specifically the screen reader and audio output, on Fedora 9.
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 10:13:06AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
What is the plan for SoundOnLogin=true ? Is it coming back? Should I just be patient?
I don't know about that option, however I do have sound working on my GDM login screen. Orca starts up automatically.
And, what's the thought on providing audio device support at this stage? Under the default pulseaudio, configuration the audio device isn't available until after the login succeeds.
I didn't do anything special to enable audio device support or pulseaudio on GDM. It just worked for me by default after installing. All I had to do was click on the accessibility icon in the lower left corner of the login screen to turn on "Hear text aloud". If there was a shortcut-key for this option would that be adequate?
Lastly, let me note that there's a security dimension here that can only be solved by clearing up a11y login. Without appropriate At support, it's not all that hard to get out of sync with the GDM dialog and put one's password where the login ID belongs.
The new GDM greeter by default lists all the local users on the system, and you select the user's name from the list to log in as that user. Then you type the password. So there won't usually be a need to type your login ID, unless this is the first time you are logging into a system with remote users (NIS, LDAP, etc.) in which case your user name might not be in the list yet. In that case, you have to click "Other..." and then type the login ID.
I did notice that the text that Orca is reading is less than helpful. First of all, it says nothing at all when the login window is ready to be used. It doesn't start reading until I click something on the login widget. Second, after clicking my user's full name in the list, it says "Password:" and sometimes it reads each key of my password as I type it instead of saying "star". I can't reproduce this problem all the time, however. I think there are some race conditions between when GDM starts up pulseaudio and Orca, because I have heard the "Welcome to Orca" occasionally when the login window is ready.
Finally, I noticed that after logging in, Orca says "Welcome to Orca" but then the process is killed or dies for some reason, and the rest of my session no longer has the screen reader enabled, even though I have it enabled in my session preferences. Logging out doesn't fix it either, and either Orca or pulseaudio (not sure which) no longer runs on the GDM screen. Rebooting seems to fix things.
So it seems that the support for accessibility, including audio and the screen reader on the login screen exists, it is just that there are many bugs that need to be ironed out.
On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 12:35 -0400, Chuck Anderson wrote:
I did notice that the text that Orca is reading is less than helpful. First of all, it says nothing at all when the login window is ready to be used. It doesn't start reading until I click something on the login widget. Second, after clicking my user's full name in the list, it says "Password:" and sometimes it reads each key of my password as I type it instead of saying "star". I can't reproduce this problem all the time, however. I think there are some race conditions between when GDM starts up pulseaudio and Orca, because I have heard the "Welcome to Orca" occasionally when the login window is ready.
Ray spent some time trying to get orca to say more reasonable things when navigating the user list, but apparently treeview a11y is hard to master. Maybe some of the nice people on gnome-accessibility-devel could help us out here. Having a nice, documented example for setting up treeview a11y would be most appreciated, and I'd add that to the GTK+ docs in a jiffy, should it appear...
Finally, I noticed that after logging in, Orca says "Welcome to Orca" but then the process is killed or dies for some reason, and the rest of my session no longer has the screen reader enabled, even though I have it enabled in my session preferences. Logging out doesn't fix it either, and either Orca or pulseaudio (not sure which) no longer runs on the GDM screen. Rebooting seems to fix things.
We haven't solved the 'carry a11y setup into the session' problem yet.
Hi, Chuck:
Chuck Anderson writes:
I've done some testing of accessibility support on GDM, specifically the screen reader and audio output, on Fedora 9.
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 10:13:06AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
What is the plan for SoundOnLogin=true ? Is it coming back? Should I just be patient?
I don't know about that option, however I do have sound working on my GDM login screen. Orca starts up automatically.
And, what's the thought on providing audio device support at this stage? Under the default pulseaudio, configuration the audio device isn't available until after the login succeeds.
I didn't do anything special to enable audio device support or pulseaudio on GDM. It just worked for me by default after installing.
Yes, I can see how that would be so. Unfortunately, in many real world situations, users are likely to have sound happening before the boot gets to GDM. They may have Speakup, the kernel based console screen reader, starting automatically, for instance. And, even if Speakup isn't set to start automatically--there's not much point when TTS is software and not hardware based--it's likely to be started after boot because somethings just run very well in the console and it's quicker/easier to do Ctrl-Alt-F1 and/or Ctrl-Alt-F2 etc., than to have multiple Terminal sessions open and Alt-TAB among them. Besides, in some regards, Speakup is cleaner and quicker than Orca.
I don't see the above scenario going away anytime, no matter how good Orca gets. Sometimes, a cli is the right tool for the job, especially as users grow into power users. I suspect this is true for everyone--disability or not. So, I imagine any power user will use both gui and cli. My argument is that the screen reader user will want multiple cli prompts, chosen to do certain tasks on certain consoles, and hot key switching is the fastest way to access tasks.
So, the default install condition will certainly play sound from GDM, if nothing else has asked for sound beforehand. But, in a running environment, this may not cover all the necessary use cases.
All I had to do was click on the accessibility icon in the lower left corner of the login screen to turn on "Hear text aloud". If there was a shortcut-key for this option would that be adequate?
I wouldn't call it adequate. How about necessary but insufficient? Let me explain--I'm trying to be complete here ...
Assuming sound at GDM start is reliably present--the above concerns resolved--adding a hot key to turn on "hear text aloud" would certainly fill the requirement of the screen reader user who uses text to speech. That hot key should be Ctrl-S, as previously spec'd by Gnome A11y.
Is there also the opportunity to launch braille via Orca? That should be Ctrl-B, and magnification should be Ctrl-M.
If these become universal, we will go a long way to meeting needs. There are still the alternative input needs as discussed earlier this week--but those certainly need more consideration.
Lastly, let me note that there's a security dimension here that can only be solved by clearing up a11y login. Without appropriate At support, it's not all that hard to get out of sync with the GDM dialog and put one's password where the login ID belongs.
The new GDM greeter by default lists all the local users on the system, and you select the user's name from the list to log in as that user. Then you type the password. So there won't usually be a need to type your login ID, unless this is the first time you are logging into a system with remote users (NIS, LDAP, etc.) in which case your user name might not be in the list yet. In that case, you have to click "Other..." and then type the login ID.
I did notice that the text that Orca is reading is less than helpful. First of all, it says nothing at all when the login window is ready to be used. It doesn't start reading until I click something on the login widget. Second, after clicking my user's full name in the list, it says "Password:" and sometimes it reads each key of my password as I type it instead of saying "star". I can't reproduce this problem all the time, however. I think there are some race conditions between when GDM starts up pulseaudio and Orca, because I have heard the "Welcome to Orca" occasionally when the login window is ready.
You've got it. You're on top of the issues. Thank you.
Finally, I noticed that after logging in, Orca says "Welcome to Orca" but then the process is killed or dies for some reason, and the rest of my session no longer has the screen reader enabled, even though I have it enabled in my session preferences. Logging out doesn't fix it either, and either Orca or pulseaudio (not sure which) no longer runs on the GDM screen. Rebooting seems to fix things.
Ah, I'd forgotten about this bug! Perhaps I can reproduce this by killing Orca's autostart in my Gnome. I will try this and report.
Janina
So it seems that the support for accessibility, including audio and the screen reader on the login screen exists, it is just that there are many bugs that need to be ironed out. _______________________________________________ gdm-list mailing list gdm-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gdm-list
I raised this issue with Fedora8, (sound when ready to perform logon).
Need to wait and wait until I am sure that system is up.
Leslie
Janina Sajka janina@rednote.net wrote: We discussed gestures that could launch AT login support in response to my first post on this thread, but I don't recall anyone addressing the other topic--the one in the Subject: line. --
What is the plan for SoundOnLogin=true ? Is it coming back? Should I just be patient?
And, what's the thought on providing audio device support at this stage? Under the default pulseaudio, configuration the audio device isn't available until after the login succeeds. Clearly, this is a problem for the eyes-free user who requires a sonic cue to know when to proceed with the login ritual. Consider if the screen never painted the login dialog. How would that work for users waiting for that screen to display? That's very much the situation we screen reader users now find ourselves in.
Lastly, let me note that there's a security dimension here that can only be solved by clearing up a11y login. Without appropriate At support, it's not all that hard to get out of sync with the GDM dialog and put one's password where the login ID belongs. I could show you my logs, but I wouldn't want to share my password. Unfortunately, it's there--in my logs.
Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.202.595.7777; sip:janina@a11y.org Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com
Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com
Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org Linux Foundation http://a11y.org
On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 18:10 -0700, Leslie Satenstein wrote:
I raised this issue with Fedora8, (sound when ready to perform logon).
Need to wait and wait until I am sure that system is up.
Have you tried what I proposed in some bug ? In F9, it should be easy to add a desktop file to /usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow that calls some noise-making command. Maybe not an ideal solution, but it should work, I think. In fact, I just tried it with a little script that does
sleep 1 aplay /usr/share/sounds/info.wav
and it made a sound.
The desktop file should look roughly like this:
[Desktop Entry] Encoding=UTF-8 Name=Noise Exec=/tmp/noise
The problem is not the available sounds after login, but the sounds to indicate
a) The logon screen is available (boot is completed) b) Your logon or password is invalid
Leslie
Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 18:10 -0700, Leslie Satenstein wrote:
I raised this issue with Fedora8, (sound when ready to perform logon).
Need to wait and wait until I am sure that system is up.
Have you tried what I proposed in some bug ? In F9, it should be easy to add a desktop file to /usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow that calls some noise-making command. Maybe not an ideal solution, but it should work, I think. In fact, I just tried it with a little script that does
sleep 1 aplay /usr/share/sounds/info.wav
and it made a sound.
The desktop file should look roughly like this:
[Desktop Entry] Encoding=UTF-8 Name=Noise Exec=/tmp/noise
On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 09:34 -0700, Leslie Satenstein wrote:
The problem is not the available sounds after login, but the sounds to indicate
a) The logon screen is available (boot is completed)
Yes. The solution I described is for just that.
b) Your logon or password is invalid
You should already get a beep for that. Is that not sufficient ?
No sound for logon screen after boot and no sound for error in logon id or password.
But sound works otherwise for OGG, wave and MP3
Leslie
Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 09:34 -0700, Leslie Satenstein wrote:
The problem is not the available sounds after login, but the sounds to indicate
a) The logon screen is available (boot is completed)
Yes. The solution I described is for just that.
b) Your logon or password is invalid
You should already get a beep for that. Is that not sufficient ?
Have you thought about eliminating the home directory and then using a soft link to the point to the target directory.
I would presume that cd ~ would work as expected, though I have not tried it.
Janina Sajka janina@rednote.net wrote: primorec writes:
short description of the problem: I would like to automagically change the working directory from $HOME to, for example, /proj/$USER after the $USER logs into the machine via the graphical (GUI) login (aka gdm). So, when the $USER opens new terminal, he/she should be in /proj/$USER and __not__ in $HOME [side note: I am using tsch as my $SHELL]
oo: no, putting 'cd /proj/$USER' into .cshrc is _not_ the solution
oo: yes, putting 'cd /proj/$USER' into .login works if the user logs into the machine using CLI login and then starts the desktop with 'startx' OR if he/she logs to the machine via ssh|telnet. It does not work for gdm (aka graphical login)
oo: no, adding 'cd /proj/$USER' to the file Default or Xsession does __not__ work.
/etc/gdm/PostLogin/Default /etc/gdm/PreSession/Default /etc/gdm/Xsession
oo: no, I do not want to change variable $HOME to point to /proj/$USER
oo: no, I do not want to modify /etc/passwd file
Simply put, I am out of ideas. Any hint, RTFM pointer or solution is appreciated.
Igor _______________________________________________ gdm-list mailing list gdm-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gdm-list
As we've been testing GDM for accessibility support on Fedora 9, we continue to note the lack of audio support. This means that a screen reader user has no way to know when it's OK to login.
There is no "beep" on backspace at the Login and Passwd entry. More seriously still:
SoundOnLogin=true SoundOnLoginFile=[some].wav
in /etc/gdm/custom.conf continues broken.
Of course we're needing the additional benefit of starting Orca for TTS via Ctrl-s, Orca with braille via Ctrl-b, etc. I can't comment on anything other than sound myself, but will be happy to investigate the other gestures if that's desired. But, what should we expect for sound?
Janina