This list is fairly low traffic, and by nature it is non-technical. I'd like to move it to https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ to see if that can help increase engagement. Is anyone opposed? We can mark this list as "frozen" and move back if the experiment doesn't work out.
Very much in favor of moving it to Discourse.
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:45 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
This list is fairly low traffic, and by nature it is non-technical. I'd like to move it to https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ to see if that can help increase engagement. Is anyone opposed? We can mark this list as "frozen" and move back if the experiment doesn't work out.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 01:45:22PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
This list is fairly low traffic, and by nature it is non-technical. I'd like to move it to https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ to see if that can help increase engagement. Is anyone opposed? We can mark this list as "frozen" and move back if the experiment doesn't work out.
Also note that while it is not a mailing list system, you can subscribe to categories or threads via email. We don't have creation of new topics via email enabled because I'm afraid of that being a spam avalanche, but you can use it to get notification of posts you care about, and either respond directly or use that as a prompt to visit the web site.
I'm in favor. A couple of considerations I brought up when CommOps did the same thing recently:
* We'll need to look at making sure anything automated (e.g. Fedocal and Pagure) point to the new location * We should announce it a few weeks in advance (e.g. if the consensus is to make the move, let's say it will start on Nov 1) so as to hopefully minimize confusion * We should set an end date for the experiment (e.g. 2 months from the start date) and define success criteria so that we can agree on whether or not this experiment is successful
I'm a little concerned that Discourse won't scale well when there are many categories, but the only way to find out is to try.
Re: success criteria, I would suggest right now taking stock of how many unique participants you have now wrt number of threads and what the result is in Discourse to understand the effect.
How would a cross team discussion such as the one we just had with council-discuss and design-team cc'ed work?
Is there no way to subscribe to all of the threads / categories like a mailing list? Because having to log into a webui periodically to subscribe to new ones as they emerge seems like an impediment to anyone not directly on the council who'd like to follow it casually from being able to follow it at all.
~m
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
I'm in favor. A couple of considerations I brought up when CommOps did the same thing recently:
- We'll need to look at making sure anything automated (e.g. Fedocal
and Pagure) point to the new location
- We should announce it a few weeks in advance (e.g. if the consensus
is to make the move, let's say it will start on Nov 1) so as to hopefully minimize confusion
- We should set an end date for the experiment (e.g. 2 months from the
start date) and define success criteria so that we can agree on whether or not this experiment is successful
I'm a little concerned that Discourse won't scale well when there are many categories, but the only way to find out is to try.
-- Ben Cotton Fedora Program Manager TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 02:37:13PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Re: success criteria, I would suggest right now taking stock of how many unique participants you have now wrt number of threads and what the result is in Discourse to understand the effect.
Yeah, that's good.
How would a cross team discussion such as the one we just had with council-discuss and design-team cc'ed work?
Well, pretty badly between mailing list and not.
But cross-posting with mailing lists is really problematic too, since we reject non-subscriber posts, and sometimes people don't cc both lists, so the threads get split and the conversation gets messy.
Is there no way to subscribe to all of the threads / categories like a mailing list? Because having to log into a webui periodically to subscribe to new ones as they emerge seems like an impediment to anyone not directly on the council who'd like to follow it casually from being able to follow it at all.
You can subscribe to an entire category -- that's similar to subscribing to a mailing list about a topic right now.
So how often do categories get created? There's no way to subscribe to all including future ones not created yet?
~m
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:42 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 02:37:13PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Re: success criteria, I would suggest right now taking stock of how many unique participants you have now wrt number of threads and what the result is in Discourse to understand the effect.
Yeah, that's good.
How would a cross team discussion such as the one we just had with council-discuss and design-team cc'ed work?
Well, pretty badly between mailing list and not.
But cross-posting with mailing lists is really problematic too, since we reject non-subscriber posts, and sometimes people don't cc both lists, so the threads get split and the conversation gets messy.
Is there no way to subscribe to all of the threads / categories like a mailing list? Because having to log into a webui periodically to subscribe to new ones as they emerge seems like an impediment to anyone not directly on the council who'd like to follow it casually from being able to follow it at all.
You can subscribe to an entire category -- that's similar to subscribing to a mailing list about a topic right now.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:44 PM Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
So how often do categories get created? There's no way to subscribe to all including future ones not created yet?
So, Discourse has a mailing list mode available. This subscribes you to the whole system, irrespective of any and all categories.
You will get everything in this mode. Unfortunately, my attempts to filter to relevant topics from email side have not been successful, and I imagine it'd get even more complex as Discourse grows...
It has been a pretty difficult for me to properly filter for the OpenMandriva and Snapcraft forums (which replaced MLs with Discourse).
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
It has been a pretty difficult for me to properly filter for the OpenMandriva and Snapcraft forums (which replaced MLs with Discourse).
We can customize the subject format in a way that might help. See https://meta.discourse.org/t/customize-subject-format-for-standard-emails/20... It'd be nice if there were further X- headers for more filtering rather than just parsing the subject.
Other than the filtering issue, what's your impression of the switch for OpenMandriva? Did they just do it for support forums, or for devel as well?
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 4:11 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
It has been a pretty difficult for me to properly filter for the OpenMandriva and Snapcraft forums (which replaced MLs with Discourse).
We can customize the subject format in a way that might help. See https://meta.discourse.org/t/customize-subject-format-for-standard-emails/20... It'd be nice if there were further X- headers for more filtering rather than just parsing the subject.
Other than the filtering issue, what's your impression of the switch for OpenMandriva? Did they just do it for support forums, or for devel as well?
Initially it was the support forums. The rest came when we lost access to the mail list system and it went down. We've transitioned over to Discourse, and now we don't discuss much there anymore.
It has forced us to more aggressively hold conversations on IRC, because Discourse was far too painful. There are some developer feedback threads on the OpenMandriva Discourse, but it was largely a failure.
It did work out reasonably well for user support, but that's because historically there were both support forums and mail lists for user support. Mageia does the same thing, though they run a phpBB forum instead of Discourse. For OpenMandriva, we just closed the user list and migrated it to Discourse.
However, I think if we had HyperKitty back then (it was brand new then), we probably wouldn't have stood up Discourse. Most people preferred the mailing list and that feeling remained after the transition.
It's important to look at the user base of who is preferring mailing lists and how it holds up for new users. Mailing lists are the preferred way for most people who've used them for a long time, but new users (newcomers to open source, younger people) definitely prefer to write on a forum and for that experience, it's better if it's a more modern one with relevant features that enhance user experience.
Mailing lists don't do that and you also have zero control over where your emails are kept. Usually, it is very painful or impossible to get anything deleted on a ML, for example.
Regarding IRC, I'll use the same argument I always use. You need a bouncer and you need to be in the same timezone. It's suboptimal for real collaboration and also has no SEO value (logging opens another can of worms regarding privacy and in my personal preference I avoid logged channels wherever I can). With Discourse I have more control, no timezone issues, and several features that I don't have on IRC or a ML, such as polls, nicer image integration, looking up other users, not clogging up my mailbox (doesn't matter if it's filtered into another folder, it's still there), and many more.
That is just my personal opinion, obviously doesn't relate to any of the communities I'm responsible for and developer-heavy communities do tend to need different communication channels than user-focused ones.
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 22:07 Neal Gompa, ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 4:11 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
It has been a pretty difficult for me to properly filter for the OpenMandriva and Snapcraft forums (which replaced MLs with Discourse).
We can customize the subject format in a way that might help. See
https://meta.discourse.org/t/customize-subject-format-for-standard-emails/20...
It'd be nice if there were further X- headers for more filtering rather
than
just parsing the subject.
Other than the filtering issue, what's your impression of the switch for OpenMandriva? Did they just do it for support forums, or for devel as
well?
Initially it was the support forums. The rest came when we lost access to the mail list system and it went down. We've transitioned over to Discourse, and now we don't discuss much there anymore.
It has forced us to more aggressively hold conversations on IRC, because Discourse was far too painful. There are some developer feedback threads on the OpenMandriva Discourse, but it was largely a failure.
It did work out reasonably well for user support, but that's because historically there were both support forums and mail lists for user support. Mageia does the same thing, though they run a phpBB forum instead of Discourse. For OpenMandriva, we just closed the user list and migrated it to Discourse.
However, I think if we had HyperKitty back then (it was brand new then), we probably wouldn't have stood up Discourse. Most people preferred the mailing list and that feeling remained after the transition.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On 10/10/2018 02:29 PM, Sanja Bonic wrote:
It's important to look at the user base of who is preferring mailing lists and how it holds up for new users. Mailing lists are the preferred way for most people who've used them for a long time, but new users (newcomers to open source, younger people) definitely prefer to write on a forum and for that experience, it's better if it's a more modern one with relevant features that enhance user experience.
As an aside, I've long been curious about this assertion.
Which is another way of saying, "Folks have been saying new users/digital natives don't like email lists," for about as long as I've been involved in Fedora.
So I agree that anecdotally, the assertion seems true. But is that because it's oft-repeated or is backed with data?
(I have seen support of this assertion in data over the last decade on the developer relations side of things, but I haven't seen/looked for it on the end-user-who-may-become-a-participant side.)
Regards,
- Karsten
On 10.10.18 17:29, Sanja Bonic wrote:
It's important to look at the user base of who is preferring mailing lists and how it holds up for new users. Mailing lists are the preferred way for most people who've used them for a long time, but new users (newcomers to open source, younger people) definitely prefer to write on a forum and for that experience, it's better if it's a more modern one with relevant features that enhance user experience.
I agree with that 100% - that was the rationale for Hyperkitty's creation several years ago. Even for long time, experienced & technical Fedora contributors contributing design talent to the project, the old school mailing list style of communication was limiting our efforts to recruit.
While not being able to follow the council via mail is a barrier for me personally as an old-timer, I also understand my needs aren't the primary ones here.
However, if Discourse is only available via webui and the email notification system is limited, then I'd worry about it lacking the network effects to get new users coming back. When a system is built on email, there's at least a mechanism to receive notifications (easily turned off in HK) to keep you engaged with the community. When it's a random web url + sign up, what is driving repeat visits?
It'll certainly be interesting to see how it works in practice!
~m
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 5:29 PM Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 10.10.18 17:29, Sanja Bonic wrote:
It's important to look at the user base of who is preferring mailing lists and how it holds up for new users. Mailing lists are the preferred way for most people who've used them for a long time, but new users (newcomers to open source, younger people) definitely prefer to write on a forum and for that experience, it's better if it's a more modern one with relevant features that enhance user experience.
I agree with that 100% - that was the rationale for Hyperkitty's creation several years ago. Even for long time, experienced & technical Fedora contributors contributing design talent to the project, the old school mailing list style of communication was limiting our efforts to recruit.
While not being able to follow the council via mail is a barrier for me personally as an old-timer, I also understand my needs aren't the primary ones here.
However, if Discourse is only available via webui and the email notification system is limited, then I'd worry about it lacking the network effects to get new users coming back. When a system is built on email, there's at least a mechanism to receive notifications (easily turned off in HK) to keep you engaged with the community. When it's a random web url + sign up, what is driving repeat visits?
If the discourse/forum threads are easier and more engaging for new contributors of today versus mailing lists, then I think we have two answers here. Those who are engaged and want to be regular contributors are already in a routine where visiting these sites regularly is going to happen. The other is that we may see a rise in episodic contributors. I just finished contributing to a study on episodic contributors and look forward to seeing the final results. We may find that we are able to boost our episodic contribution rate in a way that effectively grows our project and really focuses in on our mission of helping people serve their communities of choice.
Also, on the email notification side, I have enabled "watch first post" in areas of my interest. It is brilliant. Whenever a new thread starts, I get an email. At that point I only get follow ups on threads I find interest in.
regards,
bex
It'll certainly be interesting to see how it works in practice!
~m _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
I'm engaged and a regular contributor, and I'm not visiting even pagure regularly. I follow it via email and jump in directly from the email link as I notice things. I have to schedule time on a regular basis during design team meetings to triage it, because I otherwise rarely look at it. Pagure is the main system my team uses to communicate and get things done.
You cannot assume just because someone is engaged in the project now that they will happily go off to some other system and model and transfer that there. Especially when the system driving their regular enagement is as universal as email. You can't compete with that with a silo system. Even Slack has fallen, but for a while it had that factor because people would have multiple projects they'd connect to with it so it had value across multiple projects / facets.
The age of having people manually poll web-based systems is the past. The main methods I can think of to maintain that is dopamine hits or charging money so they need to connect regularly to get their money's worth. We don't have the creepiness factor to do dopamine hits, and we're not going to charge money.
Also consider someone engaged will now have to use two separate systems, and the logic as to which system a given team is on is non-existent, so it'll be a new guessing game for a beginning contributor to figure out where to go.
~m
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
Those who are engaged and want to be regular contributors are already in a routine where visiting these sites regularly is going to happen.
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 3:23 PM Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I'm engaged and a regular contributor, and I'm not visiting even pagure regularly. I follow it via email and jump in directly from the email link as I notice things. I have to schedule time on a regular basis during design team meetings to triage it, because I otherwise rarely look at it. Pagure is the main system my team uses to communicate and get things done.
I use Pagure the same way and I solely monitor discourse via email notices similar to the Pagure ones.
You cannot assume just because someone is engaged in the project now
that they will happily go off to some other system and model and transfer that there. Especially when the system driving their regular enagement is as universal as email. You can't compete with that with a silo system. Even Slack has fallen, but for a while it had that factor because people would have multiple projects they'd connect to with it so it had value across multiple projects / facets.
I agree. I think this idea of trying to balance serving email-silo contributors who tend to be more prevalent in our community today and attracting new contributors who we believe are not email-silo-centric is why this is such a hard problem. I’m understanding that experiments like discourse are trying to find a path forward so we can grow.
The age of having people manually poll web-based systems is the past.
I agree, even in the face of those declaring the ongoing “death” of RSS. :)
The main methods I can think of to maintain that is dopamine hits or
charging money so they need to connect regularly to get their money's worth. We don't have the creepiness factor to do dopamine hits, and we're not going to charge money.
Agreed on both points. AIUI, the belief is that contributors who prefer a forum model naturally revisit those sites, while those who are email-centric will use email notifications to do what you and I do. I think there may be RSS feeds too.
Also consider someone engaged will now have to use two separate
systems, and the logic as to which system a given team is on is non-existent, so it'll be a new guessing game for a beginning contributor to figure out where to go.
We’ve got this problem with other areas today already and it is one we need to work on. I’m hoping we can find a way to clarify this for all areas as we go through changes. I think it is important that we allow the project to grow and change and not just freeze everything where we were (are) because the message is so difficult to get right.
Regards,
bex
~m
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
Those who are engaged and want to be regular contributors are already in a routine where visiting these sites regularly is going to happen.
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You're misunderstanding what I said.
There isnt a class of people who prefer forums. People will visit a platform in a polling fashion that gives the dopamine hit because it is more compelling than any single facet of their lives. It has network effects, it basically serves as an RSS reader across their life.
A fedora discourse server can never be that to any single person.
This is even more true if said person is a volunteer.
You cannot divide humans into "email" people and "forum" people. That is not how this works.
~m
On October 14, 2018 7:38:30 AM EDT, "Brian (bex) Exelbierd" bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 3:23 PM Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I'm engaged and a regular contributor, and I'm not visiting even
pagure
regularly. I follow it via email and jump in directly from the email link as I notice things. I have to schedule time on a regular basis during design team meetings to triage it, because I otherwise rarely look at it. Pagure is the main system my team uses to communicate and get things done.
I use Pagure the same way and I solely monitor discourse via email notices similar to the Pagure ones.
You cannot assume just because someone is engaged in the project now
that they will happily go off to some other system and model and transfer that there. Especially when the system driving their regular enagement is as universal as email. You can't compete with that with
a
silo system. Even Slack has fallen, but for a while it had that
factor
because people would have multiple projects they'd connect to with it so it had value across multiple projects / facets.
I agree. I think this idea of trying to balance serving email-silo contributors who tend to be more prevalent in our community today and attracting new contributors who we believe are not email-silo-centric is why this is such a hard problem. I’m understanding that experiments like discourse are trying to find a path forward so we can grow.
The age of having people manually poll web-based systems is the past.
I agree, even in the face of those declaring the ongoing “death” of RSS. :)
The main methods I can think of to maintain that is dopamine hits or
charging money so they need to connect regularly to get their money's worth. We don't have the creepiness factor to do dopamine hits, and we're not going to charge money.
Agreed on both points. AIUI, the belief is that contributors who prefer a forum model naturally revisit those sites, while those who are email-centric will use email notifications to do what you and I do. I think there may be RSS feeds too.
Also consider someone engaged will now have to use two separate
systems, and the logic as to which system a given team is on is non-existent, so it'll be a new guessing game for a beginning contributor to figure out where to go.
We’ve got this problem with other areas today already and it is one we need to work on. I’m hoping we can find a way to clarify this for all areas as we go through changes. I think it is important that we allow the project to grow and change and not just freeze everything where we were (are) because the message is so difficult to get right.
Regards,
bex
~m
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
Those who are engaged and want to be regular contributors are already in a routine where visiting these sites regularly is going to happen.
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On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:18 PM Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
You're misunderstanding what I said.
There isnt a class of people who prefer forums. People will visit a platform in a polling fashion that gives the dopamine hit because it is more compelling than any single facet of their lives. It has network effects, it basically serves as an RSS reader across their life.
I think most of us poll our inbox far too often because of the dopamine hit. I know that I follow several forums because the topics interest me (a/k/a dopamine hit). I look at sites like Stack Exchange or Reddit that have somehow managed to make forums work. So I have trouble understanding this statement.
A fedora discourse server can never be that to any single person.
While I suspect you didn't mean to make this absolutist of a statement, I also suspect that the number is larger than we both believe. We also don't know if it is a majority of the total population and I understand your position to be that it is a minority of the Fedora Community.
regards,
bex
This is even more true if said person is a volunteer.
You cannot divide humans into "email" people and "forum" people. That is not how this works.
~m
On October 14, 2018 7:38:30 AM EDT, "Brian (bex) Exelbierd" bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 3:23 PM Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I'm engaged and a regular contributor, and I'm not visiting even pagure regularly. I follow it via email and jump in directly from the email link as I notice things. I have to schedule time on a regular basis during design team meetings to triage it, because I otherwise rarely look at it. Pagure is the main system my team uses to communicate and get things done.
I use Pagure the same way and I solely monitor discourse via email notices similar to the Pagure ones.
You cannot assume just because someone is engaged in the project now that they will happily go off to some other system and model and transfer that there. Especially when the system driving their regular enagement is as universal as email. You can't compete with that with a silo system. Even Slack has fallen, but for a while it had that factor because people would have multiple projects they'd connect to with it so it had value across multiple projects / facets.
I agree. I think this idea of trying to balance serving email-silo contributors who tend to be more prevalent in our community today and attracting new contributors who we believe are not email-silo-centric is why this is such a hard problem. I’m understanding that experiments like discourse are trying to find a path forward so we can grow.
The age of having people manually poll web-based systems is the past.
I agree, even in the face of those declaring the ongoing “death” of RSS. :)
The main methods I can think of to maintain that is dopamine hits or charging money so they need to connect regularly to get their money's worth. We don't have the creepiness factor to do dopamine hits, and we're not going to charge money.
Agreed on both points. AIUI, the belief is that contributors who prefer a forum model naturally revisit those sites, while those who are email-centric will use email notifications to do what you and I do. I think there may be RSS feeds too.
Also consider someone engaged will now have to use two separate systems, and the logic as to which system a given team is on is non-existent, so it'll be a new guessing game for a beginning contributor to figure out where to go.
We’ve got this problem with other areas today already and it is one we need to work on. I’m hoping we can find a way to clarify this for all areas as we go through changes. I think it is important that we allow the project to grow and change and not just freeze everything where we were (are) because the message is so difficult to get right.
Regards,
bex
~m
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
Those who are engaged and want to be regular contributors are already in a routine where visiting these sites regularly is going to happen.
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-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
No you missed my point. The only topic you can follow in Fedora is Fedora. Not other distros, not politics, not your family's baby photos, etc. The platforms that have the most breadth of an individuals being have higher dopamine potential than any island.
~m
On October 20, 2018 2:13:31 AM PDT, "Brian (bex) Exelbierd" bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:18 PM Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
You're misunderstanding what I said.
There isnt a class of people who prefer forums. People will visit a
platform in a polling fashion that gives the dopamine hit because it is more compelling than any single facet of their lives. It has network effects, it basically serves as an RSS reader across their life.
I think most of us poll our inbox far too often because of the dopamine hit. I know that I follow several forums because the topics interest me (a/k/a dopamine hit). I look at sites like Stack Exchange or Reddit that have somehow managed to make forums work. So I have trouble understanding this statement.
A fedora discourse server can never be that to any single person.
While I suspect you didn't mean to make this absolutist of a statement, I also suspect that the number is larger than we both believe. We also don't know if it is a majority of the total population and I understand your position to be that it is a minority of the Fedora Community.
regards,
bex
This is even more true if said person is a volunteer.
You cannot divide humans into "email" people and "forum" people. That
is not how this works.
~m
On October 14, 2018 7:38:30 AM EDT, "Brian (bex) Exelbierd"
bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 3:23 PM Máirín Duffy
duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I'm engaged and a regular contributor, and I'm not visiting even
pagure
regularly. I follow it via email and jump in directly from the
link as I notice things. I have to schedule time on a regular basis during design team meetings to triage it, because I otherwise
rarely
look at it. Pagure is the main system my team uses to communicate
and
get things done.
I use Pagure the same way and I solely monitor discourse via email
notices similar to the Pagure ones.
You cannot assume just because someone is engaged in the project
now
that they will happily go off to some other system and model and transfer that there. Especially when the system driving their
regular
enagement is as universal as email. You can't compete with that
with a
silo system. Even Slack has fallen, but for a while it had that
factor
because people would have multiple projects they'd connect to with
it
so it had value across multiple projects / facets.
I agree. I think this idea of trying to balance serving email-silo
contributors who tend to be more prevalent in our community today and attracting new contributors who we believe are not email-silo-centric is why this is such a hard problem. I’m understanding that experiments like discourse are trying to find a path forward so we can grow.
The age of having people manually poll web-based systems is the
past.
I agree, even in the face of those declaring the ongoing “death” of
RSS. :)
The main methods I can think of to maintain that is dopamine hits
or
charging money so they need to connect regularly to get their
money's
worth. We don't have the creepiness factor to do dopamine hits, and we're not going to charge money.
Agreed on both points. AIUI, the belief is that contributors who
prefer a forum model naturally revisit those sites, while those who are email-centric will use email notifications to do what you and I do. I think there may be RSS feeds too.
Also consider someone engaged will now have to use two separate systems, and the logic as to which system a given team is on is non-existent, so it'll be a new guessing game for a beginning contributor to figure out where to go.
We’ve got this problem with other areas today already and it is one
we need to work on. I’m hoping we can find a way to clarify this for all areas as we go through changes. I think it is important that we allow the project to grow and change and not just freeze everything where we were (are) because the message is so difficult to get right.
Regards,
bex
~m
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bexelbie@redhat.com wrote:
Those who are engaged and want to be regular contributors are already in a routine where visiting these sites regularly is going to happen.
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On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 09:22:10AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
The age of having people manually poll web-based systems is the past. The main methods I can think of to maintain that is dopamine hits or charging money so they need to connect regularly to get their money's worth. We don't have the creepiness factor to do dopamine hits, and we're not going to charge money.
Sorry for the slow reply here. I've been thinking. :)
This part is actually kind of a puzzle to me. That's because I am subscribed to 68 Fedora active mailing lists, and probably another dozen that haven't had activity recently. There's no way I can let that be a "push" process, because I'd drown in the deluge. So, instead, reading my Fedora mail is alreay an intentional act where I open and go through those folders. For me, there's no real difference in that aspect.
Now, I recognize I may be in a special situation here, but I don't think it's unique. I had to do this long before I was Fedora Project Leader.
Also consider someone engaged will now have to use two separate systems, and the logic as to which system a given team is on is non-existent, so it'll be a new guessing game for a beginning contributor to figure out where to go.
Yes, we definitely have a problem here, but I think that's happening whether we like it or not. For example, the design team really centers around discussion in Pagure tickets. Other groups are actually primarily using Telegram. We need ... well, we need Hubs, or at least Hubs Lite.
So the big difference between filtering email lists into folders that you poll vs reading them in your inbox "timeline" / firehose, is that you have 100% control over that and can change it to your prefs over time. That's very different than this proposal where the control is external to each individual and not changeable over time as needs change.
I am subscribed to a substantial number of email lists:
- The ones I follow most closely, 4-5 of them, go straight to inbox.
- The ones I dont follow closely, for lists that are on HK, I honestly just use HK no mail delivery. It's occasional.
- The non HK lists I dont follow closely get foldered or delivered to a lower priority email acct.
- I also get pagure emails for multiple projects and struggle to manage that (as prev mentioned Id like some delivered to one email and some another and I have no control over that.)
As I roll off projects / change priorities, I can redirect messages to inbox / turn on email delivery or redirect them to a folder.
The problem with migrating some MLs to discourse and some not, is any given participant on the spectrum of highly involved <=> following from afar has to engage w the list on a poll basis and they have no option to follow exclusively via email. This breaks personal workflows with other Fedora lists that are ML based, and could break their entire personal workflow depending on how much they use their email inbox as a "timeline".
How do we make a hubs lite happen? We so desperately need it.
~m
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 06:38:50PM -0700, Máirín Duffy wrote:
So the big difference between filtering email lists into folders that you poll vs reading them in your inbox "timeline" / firehose, is that you have 100% control over that and can change it to your prefs over time. That's very different than this proposal where the control is external to each individual and not changeable over time as needs change.
Discourse has a very rich set of features for different levels of subscription and notification. These are individual and easy to change on the fly in a very fine-grained way. This is actually one of the things that I really like about it.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 09:16:26AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Discourse has a very rich set of features for different levels of subscription and notification. These are individual and easy to change on the fly in a very fine-grained way. This is actually one of the things that I really like about it.
For that matter, there's no reason one couldn't combine Discourse email or RSS subscriptions with filtering. I just remembered I actually do something similar with Fedora Planet and with Fedora Magazine comments — I use rss2email to inject into my email stream and that has become part of my usual "check Fedora messages" workflow. I'll look at setting up the same for https://discussion.fedoraproject.org and see how that goes.
Unfortunately it sounds like from user's experiences the one feature / option it does not have is delivery of the full message, unless I am misunderstanding the numerous criticisms I have read of Discourse. Notification is fine if that's all you want, but if you don't want to have to click over to another website in another tool besides your email client, it sounds like there's no accommodation.
~m
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 06:38:50PM -0700, Máirín Duffy wrote:
So the big difference between filtering email lists into folders that you poll vs reading them in your inbox "timeline" / firehose, is that you have 100% control over that and can change it to your prefs over time. That's very different than this proposal where the control is external to each individual and not changeable over time as needs change.
Discourse has a very rich set of features for different levels of subscription and notification. These are individual and easy to change on the fly in a very fine-grained way. This is actually one of the things that I really like about it.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:11:22AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Unfortunately it sounds like from user's experiences the one feature / option it does not have is delivery of the full message, unless I am misunderstanding the numerous criticisms I have read of Discourse. Notification is fine if that's all you want, but if you don't want to have to click over to another website in another tool besides your email client, it sounds like there's no accommodation.
It does in fact deliver the full message. You might need to go to the website to change preferences, subscription options, etc.; I think that's what the comment you're referring to was talking about.
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:24 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 09:22:10AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
The age of having people manually poll web-based systems is the past. The main methods I can think of to maintain that is dopamine hits or charging money so they need to connect regularly to get their money's worth. We don't have the creepiness factor to do dopamine hits, and we're not going to charge money.
Sorry for the slow reply here. I've been thinking. :)
This part is actually kind of a puzzle to me. That's because I am subscribed to 68 Fedora active mailing lists, and probably another dozen that haven't had activity recently. There's no way I can let that be a "push" process, because I'd drown in the deluge. So, instead, reading my Fedora mail is alreay an intentional act where I open and go through those folders. For me, there's no real difference in that aspect.
Now, I recognize I may be in a special situation here, but I don't think it's unique. I had to do this long before I was Fedora Project Leader.
Also consider someone engaged will now have to use two separate systems, and the logic as to which system a given team is on is non-existent, so it'll be a new guessing game for a beginning contributor to figure out where to go.
Yes, we definitely have a problem here, but I think that's happening whether we like it or not. For example, the design team really centers around discussion in Pagure tickets. Other groups are actually primarily using Telegram. We need ... well, we need Hubs, or at least Hubs Lite.
Can you expand on what Hubs lite means? We were unable, for many reasons, to complete hubs. What was that team overreaching for? There were a lot of smart people on that project and they seemed to be talking in terms of MVP.
I suspect you don't just mean a site that has a web-irc, hyperkitty, and ical feed display widget set. I feel like that has been done and has already shown to not drive engagement in other communities, however I can't find the system I was thinking of.
regards,
bex
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 11:17:18AM +0200, Brian (bex) Exelbierd wrote:
Telegram. We need ... well, we need Hubs, or at least Hubs Lite.
Can you expand on what Hubs lite means? We were unable, for many reasons, to complete hubs. What was that team overreaching for? There were a lot of smart people on that project and they seemed to be talking in terms of MVP.
I'm thinking of something like the "Fedora Blue Pages"¹ you've mentioned before. A dynamic listing of active subprojects, and easy paths in to the ways that group functions and interacts. It doesn't need to have actual interfaces to that interaction, but it would be nice if it's easy to tell what's recently active in that group (and to automatically move non-active groups off the list).
1. For people who don't get the probably-now-obscure cultural reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_pages
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 5:06 PM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 4:11 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
It has been a pretty difficult for me to properly filter for the OpenMandriva and Snapcraft forums (which replaced MLs with Discourse).
We can customize the subject format in a way that might help. See https://meta.discourse.org/t/customize-subject-format-for-standard-emails/20... It'd be nice if there were further X- headers for more filtering rather than just parsing the subject.
Other than the filtering issue, what's your impression of the switch for OpenMandriva? Did they just do it for support forums, or for devel as well?
Initially it was the support forums. The rest came when we lost access to the mail list system and it went down. We've transitioned over to Discourse, and now we don't discuss much there anymore.
It has forced us to more aggressively hold conversations on IRC, because Discourse was far too painful. There are some developer feedback threads on the OpenMandriva Discourse, but it was largely a failure.
It did work out reasonably well for user support, but that's because historically there were both support forums and mail lists for user support. Mageia does the same thing, though they run a phpBB forum instead of Discourse. For OpenMandriva, we just closed the user list and migrated it to Discourse.
However, I think if we had HyperKitty back then (it was brand new then), we probably wouldn't have stood up Discourse. Most people preferred the mailing list and that feeling remained after the transition.
Sorry for the tiny bit of necromancy, but I wanted to give a small update about this. OpenMandriva has decided to deploy a mailing list system again, and we're splitting development discussions back out to a traditional mailing list system.
For now, it's a basic mailing list system, but Mailman 3 with HyperKitty is on the table for the future.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:03 PM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 5:06 PM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 4:11 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
It has been a pretty difficult for me to properly filter for the OpenMandriva and Snapcraft forums (which replaced MLs with Discourse).
We can customize the subject format in a way that might help. See https://meta.discourse.org/t/customize-subject-format-for-standard-emails/20... It'd be nice if there were further X- headers for more filtering rather than just parsing the subject.
Other than the filtering issue, what's your impression of the switch for OpenMandriva? Did they just do it for support forums, or for devel as well?
Initially it was the support forums. The rest came when we lost access to the mail list system and it went down. We've transitioned over to Discourse, and now we don't discuss much there anymore.
It has forced us to more aggressively hold conversations on IRC, because Discourse was far too painful. There are some developer feedback threads on the OpenMandriva Discourse, but it was largely a failure.
It did work out reasonably well for user support, but that's because historically there were both support forums and mail lists for user support. Mageia does the same thing, though they run a phpBB forum instead of Discourse. For OpenMandriva, we just closed the user list and migrated it to Discourse.
However, I think if we had HyperKitty back then (it was brand new then), we probably wouldn't have stood up Discourse. Most people preferred the mailing list and that feeling remained after the transition.
Sorry for the tiny bit of necromancy, but I wanted to give a small update about this. OpenMandriva has decided to deploy a mailing list system again, and we're splitting development discussions back out to a traditional mailing list system.
For now, it's a basic mailing list system, but Mailman 3 with HyperKitty is on the table for the future.
Is HyperKitty still under development upstream?
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:42 PM Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:03 PM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 5:06 PM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 4:11 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
It has been a pretty difficult for me to properly filter for the OpenMandriva and Snapcraft forums (which replaced MLs with Discourse).
We can customize the subject format in a way that might help. See https://meta.discourse.org/t/customize-subject-format-for-standard-emails/20... It'd be nice if there were further X- headers for more filtering rather than just parsing the subject.
Other than the filtering issue, what's your impression of the switch for OpenMandriva? Did they just do it for support forums, or for devel as well?
Initially it was the support forums. The rest came when we lost access to the mail list system and it went down. We've transitioned over to Discourse, and now we don't discuss much there anymore.
It has forced us to more aggressively hold conversations on IRC, because Discourse was far too painful. There are some developer feedback threads on the OpenMandriva Discourse, but it was largely a failure.
It did work out reasonably well for user support, but that's because historically there were both support forums and mail lists for user support. Mageia does the same thing, though they run a phpBB forum instead of Discourse. For OpenMandriva, we just closed the user list and migrated it to Discourse.
However, I think if we had HyperKitty back then (it was brand new then), we probably wouldn't have stood up Discourse. Most people preferred the mailing list and that feeling remained after the transition.
Sorry for the tiny bit of necromancy, but I wanted to give a small update about this. OpenMandriva has decided to deploy a mailing list system again, and we're splitting development discussions back out to a traditional mailing list system.
For now, it's a basic mailing list system, but Mailman 3 with HyperKitty is on the table for the future.
Is HyperKitty still under development upstream?
It looks that way: https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/activity
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On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:03 PM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for the tiny bit of necromancy, but I wanted to give a small update about this. OpenMandriva has decided to deploy a mailing list system again, and we're splitting development discussions back out to a traditional mailing list system.
Do you have a writeup somewhere on why you made this decision? If not, can you share more details on the thought process here?
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 3:42 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:03 PM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for the tiny bit of necromancy, but I wanted to give a small update about this. OpenMandriva has decided to deploy a mailing list system again, and we're splitting development discussions back out to a traditional mailing list system.
Do you have a writeup somewhere on why you made this decision? If not, can you share more details on the thought process here?
Unfortunately, we don't have a specific writeup for this as it was largely discussed in the openmandriva-cooker IRC channel.
That said, it boiled down to several things: * It is too difficult to follow conversations properly in Discourse-based discussions and tagging arbitrary people is not possible (they have to be registered in the Discourse instance to be tagged, and that only works through the web UI). Being able to tag arbitrary people through Cc'ing them is considered quite valuable. * Discourse mail is very HTML heavy, which makes it cumbersome for a number of people. * Sending developer team-wide notices (like broken deps from regular checks, failed builds during mass rebuild, etc.) is much easier through a mailing list than through Discourse, as specific integrations weren't required. * Freeform conversation threading is not allowed by everyone in Discourse, whereas it's as easy as changing the subject line in an email. * Doing comprehensive filtering for conversations, threads, topics, and people is much more difficult with Discourse than mail.
And really, the penultimate issue: * The effort required to properly participate in Discourse conversations vs regular mailing lists was higher, and high enough that the majority of developers just simply stopped communicating outside of IRC. This made asynchronous communication very difficult. Moreover, the total communication between developers/contributors and users went down over the past couple of years because of this.
Enough was enough, and we rolled back. For the moment, we have a simple mail list system, and mail received is being forwarded to Discourse, with the cooker topic being a read-only mirror of the mailing list. Over time, the mail list system will evolve and I suspect we'll eventually disconnect it from Discourse entirely and replace it with a link to the mail list archiver.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:44:22PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
So how often do categories get created? There's no way to subscribe to all including future ones not created yet?
Categories should be pretty big -- we're creating a lot right now as we experiment, but I expect that to settle down. I'm not sure why one would want to subscribe to all future categories -- we don't have anything like that for "auto-subscribe me to all new Fedora mailing lists", do we?
OK I was assuming categories were under some form of "council-discuss" entity. Is there going to instead be a single "council-discuss" category that you can just subscribe to?
~m
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:44:22PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
So how often do categories get created? There's no way to subscribe to all including future ones not created yet?
Categories should be pretty big -- we're creating a lot right now as we experiment, but I expect that to settle down. I'm not sure why one would want to subscribe to all future categories -- we don't have anything like that for "auto-subscribe me to all new Fedora mailing lists", do we?
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedorapr...
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 03:53:29PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
OK I was assuming categories were under some form of "council-discuss" entity. Is there going to instead be a single "council-discuss" category that you can just subscribe to?
Yeah. If that becomes so high traffic that we need to do something further, I think we'll call that definite success. :)
There are other categorization tools -- like tags -- which we're not really using yet that we can take advantage of it if becomes useful (or necessary).
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 8:43 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 02:37:13PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Re: success criteria, I would suggest right now taking stock of how many unique participants you have now wrt number of threads and what the result is in Discourse to understand the effect.
Yeah, that's good.
How would a cross team discussion such as the one we just had with council-discuss and design-team cc'ed work?
Well, pretty badly between mailing list and not.
But cross-posting with mailing lists is really problematic too, since we reject non-subscriber posts, and sometimes people don't cc both lists, so the threads get split and the conversation gets messy.
That's a general mailing list problem, it's not one I've really seen with the council-discuss list.
Is there no way to subscribe to all of the threads / categories like a mailing list? Because having to log into a webui periodically to subscribe to new ones as they emerge seems like an impediment to anyone not directly on the council who'd like to follow it casually from being able to follow it at all.
You can subscribe to an entire category -- that's similar to subscribing to a mailing list about a topic right now.
I read a lot of email threads offline on my phone/laptop so if offline usage is broken I'm quite against the move.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:32:29AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
You can subscribe to an entire category -- that's similar to subscribing to a mailing list about a topic right now.
I read a lot of email threads offline on my phone/laptop so if offline usage is broken I'm quite against the move.
Try out the email capabilities and see how they work for you. There's also a fairly decent Android app for phone usage, although it does not have any kind of offline mode that I'm aware of.
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 02:30:14PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
- We'll need to look at making sure anything automated (e.g. Fedocal
and Pagure) point to the new location
Yeah, actually, there's a thing there... in order for those automated posts to work, we'd have to either enable starting threads by email (see previous on fear of spam) or figure out some way to make them all be replies to a single thread. I hadn't really deeply considered that.
I'm not sure about mixing announcements and discussion, and really having tickets go to the list (either here or discourse) risks fragmenting the conversation -- I don't have a good solution.
- We should announce it a few weeks in advance (e.g. if the consensus
is to make the move, let's say it will start on Nov 1) so as to hopefully minimize confusion
- We should set an end date for the experiment (e.g. 2 months from the
start date) and define success criteria so that we can agree on whether or not this experiment is successful
+1
I'm a little concerned that Discourse won't scale well when there are many categories, but the only way to find out is to try.
Yeah. We just added subcategories, because that was definitely necessary.
council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Ben Cotton -
Brian (bex) Exelbierd -
Jason Brooks -
Karsten Wade -
Matthew Miller -
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Neal Gompa -
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Sanja Bonic