Hi,
just ran the script to collect the information for fonts again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please review it if it's what you are expecting. especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers, -- Akira TAGOH
On 03/06/2012 06:41 AM, Akira TAGOH wrote:
Hi,
just ran the script to collect the information for fonts again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please review it if it's what you are expecting.
Under the mono column of zh_CN, WQY Zen Hei Sharp is actually not a monospaced font. You may consider "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for this category. I believe WQY Micro Hei was also packaged for Fedora, the proportional and monospace faces in that package can also be considered.
I did not follow the default font settings in F17. There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig 65-nonlatin. Will this issue be solved with the new effort?
Qianqian
especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
Akira TAGOH
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
Le Mar 6 mars 2012 20:22, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
I did not follow the default font settings in F17. There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig 65-nonlatin.
How is fontconfig supposed to arbiter between CJK users when you're not telling it the locale you want? What you describe is not an issue, it's an impossible wish. You need to fix the software used by Chinese writers so it actually tells the font stack the user wants to render Chinese.
(IMHO anyway)
On 03/06/2012 02:46 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mar 6 mars 2012 20:22, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
I did not follow the default font settings in F17. There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig 65-nonlatin.
How is fontconfig supposed to arbiter between CJK users when you're not telling it the locale you want?
while this is true, the issue does exist, admit or not.
To be more explicit, I think there is a blind point in the current fallback mechanism for handling "unspecified" language font fallback. Ignoring it will continue impacting users experience in a negative way, in my opinion.
What you describe is not an issue, it's an impossible wish.
No matter you set the default font or not, there will be one chosen for these locales (currently it is Japanese). All I want to say is that, when there is no specific preference, Chinese is a better choice as it provides consistent glyphs over a larger unicode coverage.
You need to fix the software used by Chinese writers so it actually tells the font stack the user wants to render Chinese.
(IMHO anyway)
On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:22:55 -0500, "QF" == Qianqian Fang fangqq@gmail.com wrote:
QF> Under the mono column of zh_CN, WQY Zen Hei Sharp QF> is actually not a monospaced font. You may consider QF> "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for this category. I believe WQY QF> Micro Hei was also packaged for Fedora, the proportional QF> and monospace faces in that package can also QF> be considered.
Please file a bug against wqy-zenhei-fonts. 65-0-wqy-zenhei-sharp.conf contains the generic names rule for monospace.
QF> I did not follow the default font settings in F17. QF> There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese QF> under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese QF> fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig QF> 65-nonlatin. Will this issue be solved with the new QF> effort?
Well, basically that is hard to guess from the incomplete information what a font is best for characters. I suppose it's something what higher-layered apps/library should tries to address. Another option is to have own config to change the default font because making it comfortable for everyone is impossible. that's why we have fonts-tweak-tool in f17.
-- Akira TAGOH
Hi Qianqian Fang,
在 2012-03-06二的 14:22 -0500，Qianqian Fang写道：
On 03/06/2012 06:41 AM, Akira TAGOH wrote:
Hi,
just ran the script to collect the information for fonts again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please review it if it's what you are expecting.
Under the mono column of zh_CN, WQY Zen Hei Sharp is actually not a monospaced font. You may consider "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for this category. I believe WQY Micro Hei was also packaged for Fedora, the proportional and monospace faces in that package can also be considered.
I choose "WQY Zen Hei Sharp" instead of "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for monospaced font. Because we changed the default Simplified Chinese fonts to embedded-bitmap font version in F17, but "WQY Zen Hei Mono" doesn't contains embedded-bitmap font in it. We are waiting for user feedback about to use the embedded-bitmap font version as default.
I did not follow the default font settings in F17. There was a long standing issue of reading Chinese under non-CJK locales (en,fr etc) because Japanese fonts were set to a higher priority in the fontconfig 65-nonlatin. Will this issue be solved with the new effort?
To solve this problem needs to tell fontconfig which language you are using; for gnome, you can try to use "export PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en" to explicitly tell fontconfig from gtk to display Simplified Chinese and English characters in pango. This method works for Simplified Chinese users in English locale since F16 or before. We will try to provide this customization by future fonts-tweak-tool version.
Thanks, Peng Wu
Qianqian
especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
Akira TAGOH
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
On 03/09/2012 04:19 AM, Peng Wu wrote:
I choose "WQY Zen Hei Sharp" instead of "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for monospaced font. Because we changed the default Simplified Chinese fonts to embedded-bitmap font version in F17, but "WQY Zen Hei Mono" doesn't contains embedded-bitmap font in it. We are waiting for user feedback about to use the embedded-bitmap font version as default.
replacing a mono font by proportional ones will cause layout issues, which I think is more severe than the mere aesthetic difference.
To solve this problem needs to tell fontconfig which language you are using; for gnome, you can try to use "export PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en" to explicitly tell fontconfig from gtk to display Simplified Chinese and English characters in pango. This method works for Simplified Chinese users in English locale since F16 or before. We will try to provide this customization by future fonts-tweak-tool version.
yes, I understand this solution perfectly, as this was not the first time discussed. But it does not solve the issue. Browsing Chinese pages on a freshly installed English system still gives me an embarrassingly ugly look, so felt by many other Chinese users who had complained before. The solution is there, but has never been considered.
Qianqian
Thanks, Peng Wu
Qianqian
especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
Akira TAGOH
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
Le Ven 9 mars 2012 15:51, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
Browsing Chinese pages on a freshly installed English system still gives me an embarrassingly ugly look, so felt by many other Chinese users who had complained before.
Then the authors of those pages should declare they are in Chinese, so the tools don't have to guess the language. http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20030510.102829377 If they don't it's a website bug.
And if a browser does not call the shaper with the right parameters when encountering such a page, it's a browser bug and needs to be reported to the browser team.
On 03/09/2012 12:07 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Then the authors of those pages should declare they are in Chinese, so the tools don't have to guess the language. http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20030510.102829377 If they don't it's a website bug.
that's incorrect, because fontconfig does produce a "guessed" value, which is Japanese, after all, and that is the exact problem I was talking about.
the issue is not in pango, but in fontconfig.
And if a browser does not call the shaper with the right parameters when encountering such a page, it's a browser bug and needs to be reported to the browser team.
Le Ven 9 mars 2012 18:30, Qianqian Fang a écrit :
On 03/09/2012 12:07 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Then the authors of those pages should declare they are in Chinese, so the tools don't have to guess the language. http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20030510.102829377 If they don't it's a website bug.
that's incorrect, because fontconfig does produce a "guessed" value, which is Japanese, after all, and that is the exact problem I was talking about.
the issue is not in pango, but in fontconfig.
No the issue is that you're putting the font stack in a situation where it's guessing and can't produce reliable results.
Have your Chinese pages properly declare they are in Chinese as the w3c recommends for i18n sites and you won't have any problems.
On 03/09/2012 02:04 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
No the issue is that you're putting the font stack in a situation where it's guessing and can't produce reliable results.
There is nothing wrong with guessing. In fact, for a mature OS designed for the mass, fault-tolerance and legitimate guess/default values are almost required. A robust system should also function reasonably even under unexpected situations (and I believe it is fair to inspect the font rendering pipelines under these more stringent requirements given the profound impact).
All I was trying to say was that the current guess is a bad one. If it can be improved, it can save many people's time and frustration. Tell what's the downside for correcting this?
Have your Chinese pages properly declare they are in Chinese as the w3c recommends for i18n sites and you won't have any problems.
There is going to be no criminals if we are all law-abiding citizens, but unfortunately, that's not our world.
On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:59:29 -0500, "QF" == Qianqian Fang fangqq@gmail.com wrote:
QF> All I was trying to say was that the current guess is a bad QF> one. QF> If it can be improved, it can save many people's time and QF> frustration. Tell what's the downside for correcting this?
The guess isn't perfect. this is why providing the certain information in the content are recommended. thinking of the similar situation, who can guess the best font in English locale if it's better using Chinese fonts or Japanese fonts?
I personally still think that we should disable 65-nonlatin.conf by default. which causes a trouble for the preferences. it should works enough without it in Fedora at least since we have the certain rules for the fonts and only enable for the certain languages if any.
-- Akira TAGOH
Hi Qianqian Fang,
在 2012-03-09五的 09:51 -0500，Qianqian Fang写道：
On 03/09/2012 04:19 AM, Peng Wu wrote:
I choose "WQY Zen Hei Sharp" instead of "WQY Zen Hei Mono" for monospaced font. Because we changed the default Simplified Chinese fonts to embedded-bitmap font version in F17, but "WQY Zen Hei Mono" doesn't contains embedded-bitmap font in it. We are waiting for user feedback about to use the embedded-bitmap font version as default.
replacing a mono font by proportional ones will cause layout issues, which I think is more severe than the mere aesthetic difference.
Could you add a new face to wqy-zenhei-fonts, like "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono", which will be a monospaced font as "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Mono" but contains the embedded-bitmap monospaced font? Then I will change the default Simplified Chinese monospaced font to "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono". Thanks in advance, Peng Wu
To solve this problem needs to tell fontconfig which language you are using; for gnome, you can try to use "export PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en" to explicitly tell fontconfig from gtk to display Simplified Chinese and English characters in pango. This method works for Simplified Chinese users in English locale since F16 or before. We will try to provide this customization by future fonts-tweak-tool version.
yes, I understand this solution perfectly, as this was not the first time discussed. But it does not solve the issue. Browsing Chinese pages on a freshly installed English system still gives me an embarrassingly ugly look, so felt by many other Chinese users who had complained before. The solution is there, but has never been considered.
Qianqian
Thanks, Peng Wu
Qianqian
especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
Akira TAGOH
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
On 03/11/2012 11:15 PM, Peng Wu wrote:
Could you add a new face to wqy-zenhei-fonts, like "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono", which will be a monospaced font as "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Mono" but contains the embedded-bitmap monospaced font?
this is quite difficult, for two reasons:
1. We do not have mono-spaced Latin glyphs on WQY's wiki,
2. This can add redundancy to the TTC font because the bitmap related tables (BDAT/BLOC/EBDT/EBLC etc) can no longer be merged. This will cause duplication of all bitmap data for the shared Hanzi glyphs.
Then I will change the default Simplified Chinese monospaced font to "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono". Thanks in advance, Peng Wu
Are you unhappy with the AA-only Latin glyphs in Zen Hei Mono? or the Chinese part? In the former case, one possible solution is to add hinting to the Latin glyphs.
Qianqian
Thanks, Peng Wu
Qianqian
especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
Akira TAGOH
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
Hi Qianqian Fang,
在 2012-03-12一的 14:55 -0400，Qianqian Fang写道：
On 03/11/2012 11:15 PM, Peng Wu wrote:
Could you add a new face to wqy-zenhei-fonts, like "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono", which will be a monospaced font as "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Mono" but contains the embedded-bitmap monospaced font?
this is quite difficult, for two reasons:
We do not have mono-spaced Latin glyphs on WQY's wiki,
This can add redundancy to the TTC font because the
bitmap related tables (BDAT/BLOC/EBDT/EBLC etc) can no longer be merged. This will cause duplication of all bitmap data for the shared Hanzi glyphs.
For problem 2, how about to distribute two separated true type fonts? One font for mono-spaced, one for sans or serif.
Then I will change the default Simplified Chinese monospaced font to "WenQuanYi Zen Hei Sharp Mono". Thanks in advance, Peng Wu
Are you unhappy with the AA-only Latin glyphs in Zen Hei Mono? or the Chinese part? In the former case, one possible solution is to add hinting to the Latin glyphs.
Sorry, I think both Latin and Chinese glyphs are not so clear in small size.
Best regards, Peng Wu
Qianqian
Thanks, Peng Wu
Qianqian
especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
Akira TAGOH
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
Please add. ko - Monospace - NanumGothic_Coding (nhn-nanum-gothic-coding-fonts)
2012-03-06 (화), 20:41 +0900, Akira TAGOH:
Hi,
just ran the script to collect the information for fonts again. I can see some changes in the list for f17. please review it if it's what you are expecting. especially please pay attentions for the fonts which is gray-colored and decorated with bold:
Arabic - serif Urdu - serif
that would means it may breaks the default font selection when it's installed for other language (it is supposed to be pulled in by other languages). if it's not what expected, it should be limited for the certain languages then.
Also that would be a good idea to have the default fonts for:
Tibetan (bo) Dzongkha (dz) Thai (th)
On those languages, any fonts in "other" section, which would supports that language isn't installed by default. maybe good to think about picking one up from them.
http://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/f17-defaultfonts.html
Cheers,
Akira TAGOH _______________________________________________ fonts mailing list fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fonts http://fonts.fedoraproject.org/
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:17:27 +0900, "ss" == sangu sangu.fedora@gmail.com wrote:
ss> Please add. ss> ko - Monospace - NanumGothic_Coding (nhn-nanum-gothic-coding-fonts)
Please file a bug against nhn-nanum-gothic-coding-fonts to add the generic names rule for monospace.
-- Akira TAGOH
-
Akira TAGOH -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Peng Wu -
Qianqian Fang -
sangu