7:32 a.m.
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers,
instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something
like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more
intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much
usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox,
where the standard is:
http://www.google.no/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nb-NO:o...
which is simply a google search with some hints on using firefox etc.
Kyrre Ness Sjøbæk
7:36 a.m.
Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers,
instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
Even after having the release notes setup as the default page, many
users miss out important information present in it. If we are moving to
the upstream default, then we need a better prominent help option
available in the panel or menu by default.
regards
Rahul
8:06 a.m.
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 14.36 skrev Rahul Sundaram:
Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
>Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers,
>instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
>constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
>
>
Even after having the release notes setup as the default page, many
users miss out important information present in it. If we are moving to
the upstream default, then we need a better prominent help option
available in the panel or menu by default.
Definitively. Perhaps giving the release notes when people ask for them,
together with other documentation - and not try to "push it down their
throat"?
Another reason to put it somewhere else, is to ensure it doesn't "get
lost" when the user changes his/her homepage to something more
usefull...
Not every user is also an admin, and the stuff in the release-notes is
primarily meant for admins.
8:34 a.m.
Hi
Definitively. Perhaps giving the release notes when people ask for
them,
together with other documentation - and not try to "push it down their
throat"?
Users do not ask for information like this typically because they arent
aware that its documented at all. A promiment display on the browser
isnt equivalent to "push it down their throat" . We might replace those
by a first login wizard which guides them through instead of the current
setup but it still requires a glaring display to make sure users wont
miss out.
"
Another reason to put it somewhere else, is to ensure it doesn't "get
lost" when the user changes his/her homepage to something more usefull..."
good point
"
Not every user is also an admin, and the stuff in the release-notes is
primarily meant for admins."
I have been working on a more end user friendly version of the release
notes which can be used for non-root logins as the default page
regards
Rahul
12:01 p.m.
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 15.34 skrev Rahul Sundaram:
Hi
>Definitively. Perhaps giving the release notes when people ask for them,
>together with other documentation - and not try to "push it down their
>throat"?
>
Users do not ask for information like this typically because they arent
aware that its documented at all. A promiment display on the browser
isnt equivalent to "push it down their throat" . We might replace those
by a first login wizard which guides them through instead of the current
setup but it still requires a glaring display to make sure users wont
miss out.
"
It is, at least to some degree, "pushed down their throat", as a user
who clicks on "web browser" expects that, and nothing more/less - not a
big manual about how the computer they happen to open the webbrowser on
ticks.
Just take my mother as an example: She is a pretty unexperienced
computer user/nettizen, and about the only program she ever uses is
Firefox (with the apropriate plugins) on an old, beat-up laptop running
Windows ME. Which she is quite happy with - she can get info on whatever
she wants, in a no-fuzz way.
Sometimes she wants to use my computer (because she only wants to check
something really quick and doesn't care to turn on hers, etc.), wich
runs fedora. No problem, she finds the webbrowser icon, and is greeted
with a page full of non-interesting (to her) crap, instead of the usual
google search page. Thats when she cries for help, and tells me my
computer is difficult to use.
Same story with new users on the system i admin at school - i set them
up with a home folder and an account on the LDAP server, and let them
log on. First thing they go for is the webbrowser. Secound is thing they
do is staring, frightened at the display.
A login-something would certainly be better than the current situation.
Doesn't KDE have something like this - kandalf? Would that be possible
to use (and create something similar for Gnome if it doesn't already
exist) as a basis, and giving such things as links to release notes,
fedoraforum.org etc.?
But that would still be giving the user information the user didn't ask
for. What about a shortcut on the standard desktop+somewhere in the
laucher menu to the docs provided by the docs project? And how many of
the RHEL docs could be copy-pasted into fedora usage?
Another reason to put it somewhere else, is to ensure it doesn't
"get
lost" when the user changes his/her homepage to something more usefull..."
good point
"
Not every user is also an admin, and the stuff in the release-notes is
primarily meant for admins."
I have been working on a more end user friendly version of the release
notes which can be used for non-root logins as the default page
No sensefull admin i know logs in grapically as root, and if he/she
does, he/she does not start surfing the web - and therefore does not
start firefox. Sice firefox is never started as root, the "full" release
notes never get seen.
Kyrre Ness Sjøbæk
1:29 p.m.
Hi.
Kyrre Ness Sjobak <kyrre(a)solution-forge.net> wrote:
It is, at least to some degree, "pushed down their throat",
as a user
who clicks on "web browser" expects that, and nothing more/less - not a
big manual about how the computer they happen to open the webbrowser on
ticks.
Well, if they would actually _read_ the instructions that come with
the most complex machine a normal user can buy on this planet it
would certainly prevent a lot of, let's say "unnecessary" questions,
now wouldn't it?
Hiding them somewhere does not do anyone any good.
After he has read them he is free to hide it.
--
"Das Swapfile waechst, die Platte rasselt,
wer hat denn da das free() vermasselt?"
4:41 p.m.
Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
Hi.
Kyrre Ness Sjobak <kyrre(a)solution-forge.net> wrote:
>It is, at least to some degree, "pushed down their throat", as a user
>who clicks on "web browser" expects that, and nothing more/less - not a
>big manual about how the computer they happen to open the webbrowser on
>ticks.
>
>
Well, if they would actually _read_ the instructions that come with
the most complex machine a normal user can buy on this planet it
would certainly prevent a lot of, let's say "unnecessary" questions,
now wouldn't it?
Well, I don't really feel strongly about all this, but it seems to me
that for end user problem solving purposes, http://www.google.com/firfox
would be more useful, with perhaps a bookmark to the fedora-list
archives and the release notes preinstalled. And perhaps remove the
numerous and confusing bookmarks that direct the user to all the
different and various ways to spend money with RedHat. ;-)
-Steve
1:53 p.m.
On 5/7/05, Kyrre Ness Sjobak <kyrre(a)solution-forge.net> wrote:
It is, at least to some degree, "pushed down their throat",
as a user
who clicks on "web browser" expects that, and nothing more/less -
Most users using a desktop today... use IE as a browser... im pretty
sure most users 'expect' to see an MSN default page.. or a page for
AOL or some other ISP homepage.. if you want to get technical about
expectations for 'most' computer users. Extrapolating your mother's
experience with firefox.. doesn't say anything about common
expectation.
What you expect.... is not what I expect... and somehow I doubt either
of us can be held up as an example of what the typical desktop user is
thinking. I don't expect to see a google page or any other specific
page. I expect to see a default that I will end up needing changing..
based on the circumstances in which that particular machine happens to
be used in.. that is what I expect. At work my browser homepage ends
up being an internal page from the internal webserver. At home right
now its, http://darthside.blogspot.com/.
The reality is most people installing fedora ARE admins of their own
machines and I don't see a Fedora specific default homepage as being a
particular poorer choice than a firefox default. The default page
could be better in appearence and provide a link to the standard
default firefox page and perhaps a brief instruction on how to choose
a new homepge. But as a concept i think its perfectly acceptable to
replace the default homepage with something fedora specific instead of
firefox specific. The devil's in the details of what the fedora
specific default should be. But I don't think it should be the firefox
default... it should be a reasonably useful fedora default.
If an oem does a fedora install... great...and I expect that OEM to
change some default settings as they see fit for thier clients too.
For large network installs, the network admins can most likely going
to change the default homepage to something site specific anyways.
Arguing about keeping the upstream default browser homepage seems a
bit pedantic. It seems much more sensible to be arguing about what the
fedora specific homepage should be including instead.
-jef
1:58 p.m.
On 5/7/05, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)redhat.com> wrote:
I have been working on a more end user friendly version of the
release
notes which can be used for non-root logins as the default page
any rough cuts of this in cvs or some url? and are you taking an RFE's
against the design? and where would I file them?
-jef
2:12 p.m.
Hi
any rough cuts of this in cvs or some url? and are you taking an
RFE's
against the design? and where would I file them?
-jef
I am just volunteering to do this on my own interest and will make
something available publicly after a few weeks. If anyone does have
ideas please just drop me an email. I will take into consideration every
idea anyone sends me and I will respond back in detail
regards
Rahul
2:07 p.m.
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 00:42 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
>any rough cuts of this in cvs or some url? and are you taking an RFE's
>against the design? and where would I file them?
>
>-jef
>
I am just volunteering to do this on my own interest and will make
something available publicly after a few weeks. If anyone does have
ideas please just drop me an email. I will take into consideration every
idea anyone sends me and I will respond back in detail
Rahul has discussed this with me as a parallel to the standard relnotes.
Regardless of what we consider the target niche for Fedora is, there are
_plenty_ of newbies who are using Fedora, thank ye gods. Our current
relnotes are oriented for the admin, and that is a very important role
they fill. Rahul's idea fills a similar role for the "typical end-
user". As *both* an admin and a end-user, I would use both relnotes for
their different purposes.
I think Rahul's idea would either make a dandy default homepage, or a
prominent top link on a link-aggregator default homepage.
- Karsten
--
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41
Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/
7:37 a.m.
On Sat, May 07, 2005 at 02:32:49PM +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all
browsers,
instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
I personally prefer a local (file://...) homepage for a browser
as default i.s.o. a homepage requiring a working network, DNS, etc.
so I consider it a good choice, but YMMV...
--
-- Jos Vos <jos(a)xos.nl>
-- X/OS Experts in Open Systems BV | Phone: +31 20 6938364
-- Amsterdam, The Netherlands | Fax: +31 20 6948204
8:41 a.m.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all
browsers,
instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
for me the "upstream" mantra applies far more to the code than to any
actual settings of applications. If the user can and should change
things, I don't see an issue with Fedora doing so as shipped as well.
10:43 a.m.
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 15.41 skrev Arjan van de Ven:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
> Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers,
> instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
> constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
for me the "upstream" mantra applies far more to the code than to any
actual settings of applications. If the user can and should change
things, I don't see an issue with Fedora doing so as shipped as well.
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last discussion
about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is
configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
Kyrre Sjøbæk
10:55 a.m.
Hi
>
>
>
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last discussion
about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is
configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
Kyrre Sjøbæk
dont bring the spatial flamewar yet again please. if you dont like the
setting just turn it off. its pretty easy to do that now.
regards
Rahul
2:42 p.m.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 17:43 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last
discussion
about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is
configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
Once I got use to spatial nautilus, it's actually what I prefer.
4:57 p.m.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 17:43 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 15.41 skrev Arjan van de Ven:
> On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
> > Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers,
> > instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
> > constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
>
> for me the "upstream" mantra applies far more to the code than to any
> actual settings of applications. If the user can and should change
> things, I don't see an issue with Fedora doing so as shipped as well.
>
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last discussion
about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is
configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
It's probably relevant in this case that the upstream maintainers in
question are also the Red Hat maintainers ;-)
Havoc
11:09 a.m.
Arjan van de Ven wrote:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
>Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers,
>instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
>constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
>
>
for me the "upstream" mantra applies far more to the code than to any
actual settings of applications. If the user can and should change
things, I don't see an issue with Fedora doing so as shipped as well.
Not only that, but certain settings are designed by the upstream to be
changed before any redistribution. Fedora as a package ships icons that
people are required to change because of trademark issues, for instance.
With Firefox, the home page default is one of the most elastic settings
of a distribution. From the days before Firefox was open source (e.i.
when it was called Netscape), changing the home page and the throbber
icon were the 2 most common changes made by other vendors when they
redistributed the code. It's designed to be changed by the
redistributor, and in fact almost always is (I know of few people who
redistribute Firefox or Mozilla that don't change the home page).
So the "upstream!" argument doesn't hold (BTW the Firefox default is not
Google, either, so you mother would still be lost because she started up
in the 'download the latest version of Firefox' page). That doesn't mean
the argument that the current default is silly, ineffective isn't
valid, and I'm sure that topic can keep this thread going for quite some
time...;).
bob
11:52 a.m.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all
browsers,
instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something
like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more
intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much
usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox,
where the standard is:
http://www.google.no/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nb-NO:o...
which is simply a google search with some hints on using firefox etc.
If a site actually deploys fedora to tend users, they certainly
shouldn't leave the release notes as the default page.
But the target for fedora really is the enthusiast community; while we
encourage people to use it in others ways, the prototypical Fedora user
is someone who:
- Installs their own machine (**)
- cares about the software they just installed
- Has a good chance of following further links and getting involved
with Fedora
This is someone who is going to get a benefit from seeing the release
notes (*)
I don't think there is any attempt to say that the release notes
are what anybody will leave as their homepage, but
It might be even cooler to have some sort of "fedora portal" (I use that
word with great reluctance, but I don't know a better one) as the
default homepage... but that would take a lot more active resources
than the release notes.
Regards,
Owen
(*) The obvious question then is why we don't configure the default
desktop for a hacker... at least add a terminal launcher.
There are multiple reasons here .. *my* personal take on it
is that "configured for the hacker" often leads to sloppiness
where the end-user configuration is just an untested veneer
with a bunch of good looking knobs. Not so much of a concern for
the default homepage, which will be changed anyways.
(**) If we could identify the user who installed the machine and
give just *them* the release notes, that might be cool,
but it's not obvious how to make that identification.
2:57 p.m.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 12:52 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote:
It might be even cooler to have some sort of "fedora portal" (I use that
word with great reluctance, but I don't know a better one) as the
default homepage... but that would take a lot more active resources
than the release notes.
Default homepage should be a local file, not a web file.
It could have a link to external, but it should be local file.
Local file will work regardless of whether or not networking is up, dns
is working, etc.
Opening a new window is also much faster if it is from local file.
Perhaps a more informative page (but a local page) with links to
documentation, including the release notes, would be a better default
than just the release notes.
A brief page with links to:
release notes (local file)
FAQ (local file)
/usr/share/doc
user list
a search box to search the user list
5:53 a.m.
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 14.32 skrev Kyrre Ness Sjobak:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all
browsers,
instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while
constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something
like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more
intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much
usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox,
where the standard is:
http://www.google.no/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nb-NO:o...
which is simply a google search with some hints on using firefox etc.
Kyrre Ness Sjøbæk
Just to sum up:
- Homepage should be a local file, as we cannot thrust Internet/DNS/etc.
to be working, as the user migth see and error message "cannot connect
to host blah blah".
- Release notes should be easily accessable
- Release notes should probably not be the #1 documentation shown
- Documentation/release notes should be easily accessable from somewhere
else, as users tend to change their homepage
- Don't give users info they haven't asked for
Any big disagreements? What should be done (should anything be done)?
Kyrre
6:05 a.m.
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 12:53 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
- Homepage should be a local file, as we cannot thrust
Internet/DNS/etc.
to be working, as the user migth see and error message "cannot connect
to host blah blah".
- Release notes should be easily accessable
- Release notes should probably not be the #1 documentation shown
- Documentation/release notes should be easily accessable from somewhere
else, as users tend to change their homepage
- Don't give users info they haven't asked for
Any big disagreements? What should be done (should anything be done)?
if there was a very nice "welcome to fedora, click on any of these
links ..."
where the links are about things like the release notes, getting started
with fedora desktop, setting up internet access with fedora and maybe 2
or 3 more, it'd be mightily cool :)
To keep it comprehensive I suspect 5 or 6 is the hard limit on the
number of these links.
6:35 a.m.
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 13:05 +0200, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
where the links are about things like the release notes, getting
started
with fedora desktop, setting up internet access with fedora and maybe 2
or 3 more, it'd be mightily cool :)
To keep it comprehensive I suspect 5 or 6 is the hard limit on the
number of these links.
I would agree with Arjan, in that the home page being a Fedora Core home
page that is local. It could consist of things Arjan mentioned above,
or maybe even link or two to Fedora Extras/Fedora Home/RedHat, etc..
--
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY
"I didn't lose my mind...I sold it on eBay!"
7:58 a.m.
On Sun, May 08, 2005 at 06:35:18AM -0500, Mike Chambers wrote:
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 13:05 +0200, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> where the links are about things like the release notes, getting started
> with fedora desktop, setting up internet access with fedora and maybe 2
> or 3 more, it'd be mightily cool :)
> To keep it comprehensive I suspect 5 or 6 is the hard limit on the
> number of these links.
I would agree with Arjan, in that the home page being a Fedora Core home
page that is local. It could consist of things Arjan mentioned above,
or maybe even link or two to Fedora Extras/Fedora Home/RedHat, etc..
And fedoraforum.org as it's become a blessed channel for end-user
information.
-Toshio
3:49 p.m.
søn, 08.05.2005 kl. 13.05 skrev Arjan van de Ven:
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 12:53 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
> - Homepage should be a local file, as we cannot thrust Internet/DNS/etc.
> to be working, as the user migth see and error message "cannot connect
> to host blah blah".
> - Release notes should be easily accessable
> - Release notes should probably not be the #1 documentation shown
> - Documentation/release notes should be easily accessable from somewhere
> else, as users tend to change their homepage
> - Don't give users info they haven't asked for
>
> Any big disagreements? What should be done (should anything be done)?
if there was a very nice "welcome to fedora, click on any of these
links ..."
where the links are about things like the release notes, getting started
with fedora desktop, setting up internet access with fedora and maybe 2
or 3 more, it'd be mightily cool :)
To keep it comprehensive I suspect 5 or 6 is the hard limit on the
number of these links.
Or simply "fitting it nicely in within a 800x600 display"?
Anybody with web-designer-skills? I could even be localized...
Giving some hints about "how to use this thing" would be great :) Giving
some hints to what the release-notes actually is, would probably also be
a good idea...
Setting up internet is a no-job in the case of ethernet.
Kyrre Ness Sjøbæk
5:23 a.m.
On Sun, 08 May 2005 22:49:10 +0200, "Kyrre Ness Sjobak"
<kyrre(a)solution-forge.net> said:
Giving some hints about "how to use this thing" would be
great :)
I've actually been building a document to tackle this
(fedora-installation-guide/next-steps.xml in Docs CVS, but it will
probably become a separate document), so there will be material that the
home page could link to in there. E.g. there's a "Help on the Web"
section that links to the forums.
Setting up internet is a no-job in the case of ethernet.
True. I think that the post-install connectivity issues are mainly
modems, proxy servers and wireless.
--
Stuart Ellis
stuart(a)elsn.org
Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA
11:21 a.m.
man, 09.05.2005 kl. 12.23 skrev Stuart Ellis:
On Sun, 08 May 2005 22:49:10 +0200, "Kyrre Ness Sjobak"
<kyrre(a)solution-forge.net> said:
> Giving some hints about "how to use this thing" would be great :)
I've actually been building a document to tackle this
(fedora-installation-guide/next-steps.xml in Docs CVS, but it will
probably become a separate document), so there will be material that the
home page could link to in there. E.g. there's a "Help on the Web"
section that links to the forums.
> Setting up internet is a no-job in the case of ethernet.
True. I think that the post-install connectivity issues are mainly
modems, proxy servers and wireless.
Would that include wireless cards for which drivers are not included in
fedora? RPMS @ extras for those extra kernel modules? NetworkManager?
What about fedorafaq.org - it is a highly usefull resource, and at least
somewhat semi-official (as they get to use the fedora-announce-list)?
Kyrre
11:28 a.m.
Hi
Would that include wireless cards for which drivers are not included
in
fedora? RPMS @ extras for those extra kernel modules? NetworkManager?
What about fedorafaq.org - it is a highly usefull resource, and at least
somewhat semi-official (as they get to use the fedora-announce-list)?
Kyrre
I believe you should move this discussion to fedora-docs at this point.
Fedorafaq.org cannot be linked for legal reasons. Read fedora-docs
archive for details
regards
Rahul
6926
days inactive
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27 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Arjan van de Ven -
Havoc Pennington -
Jef Spaleta -
Jos Vos -
Karsten Wade -
Kyrre Ness Sjobak -
Michael A. Peters -
Mike Chambers -
Owen Taylor -
Rahul Sundaram -
Ralf Ertzinger -
Robert Relyea -
Steve Bergman -
Stuart Ellis -
Toshio Kuratomi