9:31 a.m.
Hello,
According to schedule, there is now a feature freeze in effect. I read
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FeatureFreezePolicy but
it's not clear for me if I'm too late to ask a minor version update.
Syslog-ng 3.1.2 was released yesterday (for details, check
https://lists.balabit.hu/pipermail/syslog-ng/2010-August/014606.html ).
This is a minor version update with many bugfixes. Syslog-ng is a leaf
package, AFAIK, nothing depends on it. Can I still add a version update
request to bugzilla, or it is too late to be included in Fedora 14?
BTW: once upon a time, syslog-ng was rejected as default syslog because
of its license:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg02385.html While
I guess, it's too late now to make a switch now, here is some good news:
http://bazsi.blogs.balabit.com/2010/07/syslog-ng-contributions-redefined....
Dual licensing will be gone with the upcoming syslog-ng v3.2.
Bye,
CzP / from syslog-ng upstream...
9:32 a.m.
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IMO, it shouldn't be a problem for syslog-ng 3.1.2 to go in. I'll try to get
to it today or tomorrow before I go on vacation.
- -Doug
On 08/05/2010 10:31 AM, Peter Czanik wrote:
Hello,
According to schedule, there is now a feature freeze in effect. I read
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/FeatureFreezePolicy but
it's not clear for me if I'm too late to ask a minor version update.
Syslog-ng 3.1.2 was released yesterday (for details, check
https://lists.balabit.hu/pipermail/syslog-ng/2010-August/014606.html ).
This is a minor version update with many bugfixes. Syslog-ng is a leaf
package, AFAIK, nothing depends on it. Can I still add a version update
request to bugzilla, or it is too late to be included in Fedora 14?
BTW: once upon a time, syslog-ng was rejected as default syslog because
of its license:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg02385.html While
I guess, it's too late now to make a switch now, here is some good news:
http://bazsi.blogs.balabit.com/2010/07/syslog-ng-contributions-redefined....
Dual licensing will be gone with the upcoming syslog-ng v3.2.
Bye,
CzP / from syslog-ng upstream...
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6:42 p.m.
Peter Czanik wrote:
While I guess, it's too late now to make a switch now, here is
some good
news:
http://bazsi.blogs.balabit.com/2010/07/syslog-ng-contributions-
redefined.html
Dual licensing will be gone with the upcoming syslog-ng v3.2.
Nothing has really changed for practical purposes. There's still a non-Free
"Premium Edition" with added features and a crippleware "Open Source
Edition". The only thing which has changed is the way the non-Free features
are delivered (as plugins instead of relicensing the whole thing). This
doesn't resolve the complaint that upstream will be unwilling to add
features which are specific to the non-Free edition.
Crippleware "OSE"s suck. Fedora should not encourage this practice.
Kevin Kofler
1:22 p.m.
Hello,
On 08/06/2010 01:42 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Peter Czanik wrote:
> While I guess, it's too late now to make a switch now, here is some good
> news:
> http://bazsi.blogs.balabit.com/2010/07/syslog-ng-contributions-
redefined.html
> Dual licensing will be gone with the upcoming syslog-ng v3.2.
Nothing has really changed for practical purposes. There's still a
non-Free
"Premium Edition" with added features and a crippleware "Open Source
Edition". The only thing which has changed is the way the non-Free
features
are delivered (as plugins instead of relicensing the whole thing). This
doesn't resolve the complaint that upstream will be unwilling to add
features which are specific to the non-Free edition.
Crippleware "OSE"s suck. Fedora should not encourage this practice.
OSE
is nothing near to being a crippleware. Most features arrive
simultaneously to OSE and PE (like support for the new syslog spec,
etc.) or appear in PE first and then migrated quickly to OSE (like SSL
and database support). Automatic testing of PE also helped to fix more
bugs in OSE than the community ever did. So the time and energy spent on
PE automagically helps to improve the OSE too.
A more detailed blog entry about the OSE vs. PE question is available at
http://bazsi.blogs.balabit.com/2010/08/lwn-syslog-ng-rotten-to-open-core....
And for those, who are more interested in technical details than
licensing, here is a list of what's new in syslog-ng OSE v3.2 alpha2:
http://bazsi.blogs.balabit.com/2010/08/lwn-syslog-ng-rotten-to-open-core....
Bye,
CzP / from syslog-ng upstream...
5:08 p.m.
Peter Czanik wrote:
OSE is nothing near to being a crippleware. Most features arrive
simultaneously to OSE and PE (like support for the new syslog spec,
etc.) or appear in PE first and then migrated quickly to OSE (like SSL
and database support). Automatic testing of PE also helped to fix more
bugs in OSE than the community ever did. So the time and energy spent on
PE automagically helps to improve the OSE too.
I completely understand why you want to defend your project and why you
think your way of doing it is different. The thing is, most if not all of
the people who do "Open Core" crippleware try to justify themselves that
way. (It's always THEIR project which is alleged to be completely different
from all the others.) But the facts speak clear: you (the company you work
for) sell a proprietary edition which intentionally has more features than
the Free one, ergo the Free one is deliberately crippled.
Even if the features eventually show up in the Free edition, that still
means people are getting them later than they could. The normal way to
develop features in established Free Software projects is to develop them in
public, in the development tree (which is also Free Software, obviously),
using what is often called the "Open Source Development Model". In fact,
several people in the Open Source camp defend Open Source / Free Software
specifically BECAUSE it allows that kind of development model. Compared to
such a model, yours means having to wait much longer for the features, and
being clearly pressured into buying the proprietary version, giving up the
freedoms that come with Free Software.
(As you can see, I'm familiar with both the Free Software and the Open
Source view of things. Your approach satisfies neither.)
Kevin Kofler
1:16 a.m.
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at>wrote:
Peter Czanik wrote:
> OSE is nothing near to being a crippleware. Most features arrive
> simultaneously to OSE and PE (like support for the new syslog spec,
> etc.) or appear in PE first and then migrated quickly to OSE (like SSL
> and database support). Automatic testing of PE also helped to fix more
> bugs in OSE than the community ever did. So the time and energy spent on
> PE automagically helps to improve the OSE too.
I completely understand why you want to defend your project and why you
think your way of doing it is different. The thing is, most if not all of
the people who do "Open Core" crippleware try to justify themselves that
way. (It's always THEIR project which is alleged to be completely different
from all the others.) But the facts speak clear: you (the company you work
for) sell a proprietary edition which intentionally has more features than
the Free one, ergo the Free one is deliberately crippled.
---
They used to have a proprietary edition and demanded copyright control but
now they have moved to a model of proprietary plugins without copyright
control. Ideally, we will get everything as Free software but this is a
significant improvement over what was before. I don't think syslog-ng even
without the proprietary plugins is crippleware. It is quite useful on its
own but ultimately this debate is obsolete now that all mainstream
distributions led by Fedora have picked up rsyslog as default.
Rahul
9:03 a.m.
On 10/08/10 14:57, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
Hi.
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:08:32 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Even if the features eventually show up in the Free edition, that
> still means people are getting them later than they could.
So you're basically complaining to someone that gave you $5 that
he did not give you $10?
No, I think more like someone who could have given him 10, gave him 5,
with a promise of another 5, if he paid 10.
--
Regards,
Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded
Friend of Fedora
9:42 a.m.
Hi.
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:03:32 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
No, I think more like someone who could have given him 10, gave him
5,
with a promise of another 5, if he paid 10.
That someone is under no obligation whatsoever to give him anything.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should be immensely grateful
for every morsel of code thrown our way, but one cannot argue that the OSE edition
of syslog-ng is a useless piece of crippleware that does nothing useful compared
to the PE version (except bugging people to buy the PE edition).
It's a useful piece of code in it's own right.
10:01 a.m.
On 10/08/10 15:42, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
<snip>
That someone is under no obligation whatsoever to give him anything.
Also he (the reciever) is under no obligation to accept anything.
It's a useful piece of code in it's own right.
So are diamonds, but the price can be high, even if received freely.
--
Regards,
Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded
Friend of Fedora
2:01 p.m.
On 08/10/2010 05:42 PM, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
Hi.
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:03:32 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
> No, I think more like someone who could have given him 10, gave him 5,
> with a promise of another 5, if he paid 10.
>
That someone is under no obligation whatsoever to give him anything.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should be immensely grateful
for every morsel of code thrown our way, but one cannot argue that the OSE edition
of syslog-ng is a useless piece of crippleware that does nothing useful compared
to the PE version (except bugging people to buy the PE edition).
It's a useful piece of code in it's own right.
syslog-ng is useful, I do
not object to that. I even tried to use it 2
years ago. But it's also easy replaceable with rsyslog which includes
everything and a kitchen sink as an extra bonus.
5008
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10 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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Douglas E. Warner -
Frank Murphy -
Kevin Kofler -
Manuel Wolfshant -
Peter Czanik -
Rahul Sundaram -
Ralf Ertzinger