Hello,
I'd like to know whether it makes sense to continue maintaining and producing the Fedora Python Classroom Lab.
It has problems:
- no issue tracker, I don't even know if there are users with issues - there has simple been close to zero feedback, maybe nobody uses this?
- the website is horribly outdated: https://pagure.io/fedora-websites/issue/962
- some Fedora versions weren't built: - I wasn't notified when F29 wasn't built - there was no way to get it fixed ex-post - https://pagure.io/releng/issue/7922
- Docker is broken - one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image - the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working - not even when replaced with podman - I have no idea how to fix it - I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
- Vagrant experience is not good enough - one of the main ideas was to produce a Vagrant box/image - I know no way to upload to official Vagrant thing [6] - downloading the box manually is tedious
The absolute lack of feedback makes is hard to dedicate time to actually persuade and fix the problems.
[1] https://labs.fedoraproject.org/en/python-classroom/ [2] https://fedoramagazine.org/introducing-python-classroom-lab/ [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/PythonClassroomLab [4] https://labs.fedoraproject.org/en/python-classroom/download/ [5] https://hub.docker.com/_/fedora/ [6] https://app.vagrantup.com/fedora/
On 12/5/19 1:44 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote:
Hello,
I'd like to know whether it makes sense to continue maintaining and producing the Fedora Python Classroom Lab.
Do any schools use this? Possibly an edition for use in a school/university computer lab or internet cafe may be more useful, with less focus on Python and better support for thin clients may be more helpful.
It has problems:
- no issue tracker, I don't even know if there are users with issues - there has simple been close to zero feedback, maybe nobody uses this?
- the website is horribly outdated: https://pagure.io/fedora-websites/issue/962
- some Fedora versions weren't built: - I wasn't notified when F29 wasn't built - there was no way to get it fixed ex-post - https://pagure.io/releng/issue/7922
- Docker is broken - one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image - the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working - not even when replaced with podman - I have no idea how to fix it - I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
- Vagrant experience is not good enough - one of the main ideas was to produce a Vagrant box/image - I know no way to upload to official Vagrant thing [6] - downloading the box manually is tedious
The absolute lack of feedback makes is hard to dedicate time to actually persuade and fix the problems.
[1] https://labs.fedoraproject.org/en/python-classroom/ [2] https://fedoramagazine.org/introducing-python-classroom-lab/ [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/PythonClassroomLab [4] https://labs.fedoraproject.org/en/python-classroom/download/ [5] https://hub.docker.com/_/fedora/ [6] https://app.vagrantup.com/fedora/
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:46 AM Miro Hrončok mhroncok@redhat.com wrote:
I'd like to know whether it makes sense to continue maintaining and producing the Fedora Python Classroom Lab.
I can't answer that question for you, but I can address a few of the below:
- no issue tracker, I don't even know if there are users with issues
- there has simple been close to zero feedback, maybe nobody uses this?
Maybe? I recently created a component in Bugzilla for IoT. I can do that for Classroom Lab, too. I've been talking with mattdm about doing that for all of our editions, spins, and labs, we just haven't decided on the approach yet.
- the website is horribly outdated: https://pagure.io/fedora-websites/issue/962
In the absence of a thriving website team, I've blocked out a few hours next week to take care of some of the easier web tasks, so this should be fixed soon.
- some Fedora versions weren't built:
- I wasn't notified when F29 wasn't built
- there was no way to get it fixed ex-post
- https://pagure.io/releng/issue/7922
No good answers here, but I think everyone agrees this is something we want to have fixed.
Docker is broken
- one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image
- the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working
- not even when replaced with podman
- I have no idea how to fix it
- I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
Vagrant experience is not good enough
- one of the main ideas was to produce a Vagrant box/image
- I know no way to upload to official Vagrant thing [6]
- downloading the box manually is tedious
I can't help here either, but if there's something I can do to help you make connections or find the resources, please let me know.
The absolute lack of feedback makes is hard to dedicate time to actually persuade and fix the problems.
I understand that. The Python Classroom Lab is a great example of what we'd like to enable people to do in Fedora, but if you don't have the motivation or there's no user base, I'm sure you have a long list of other things you'd like to work on. :-)
On Thursday, December 5, 2019 3:44:50 AM MST Miro Hrončok wrote:
- Docker is broken
- one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image
- the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working
- not even when replaced with podman
- I have no idea how to fix it
- I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
What's wrong with the packaged version of Docker?
On 12/5/19 9:55 AM, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2019 3:44:50 AM MST Miro Hrončok wrote:
- Docker is broken
- one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image
- the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working
- not even when replaced with podman
- I have no idea how to fix it
- I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
What's wrong with the packaged version of Docker?
It does not exists in Fedora 31. What is the issue with Podman support?
On 05. 12. 19 21:05, Daniel Walsh wrote:
On 12/5/19 9:55 AM, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2019 3:44:50 AM MST Miro Hrončok wrote:
- Docker is broken
- one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image
- the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working
- not even when replaced with podman
- I have no idea how to fix it
- I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
What's wrong with the packaged version of Docker?
It does not exists in Fedora 31. What is the issue with Podman support?
I suppose the image does not exist in the registry at all.
On Thursday, December 5, 2019 1:05:38 PM MST Daniel Walsh wrote:
On 12/5/19 9:55 AM, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2019 3:44:50 AM MST Miro Hrončok wrote:
Docker is broken
- one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image
- the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working
- not even when replaced with podman
- I have no idea how to fix it
- I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
What's wrong with the packaged version of Docker?
It does not exists in Fedora 31. What is the issue with Podman support?
I didn't know it was removed, and I don't know what "Podman" is. Is that a Docker clone?
Why in the world was Docker removed? Docker is the most popular container technology, so if we must embrace the "container" systems, why not include the most popular in Fedora?
On Thu, Dec 05, 2019 at 04:42:46PM -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2019 1:05:38 PM MST Daniel Walsh wrote:
On 12/5/19 9:55 AM, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2019 3:44:50 AM MST Miro Hrončok wrote:
Docker is broken
- one of the main ideas was to produce a Docker image
- the Docker instructions on the download page [4] are not working
- not even when replaced with podman
- I have no idea how to fix it
- I know no way to upload to official dockerhub [5]
What's wrong with the packaged version of Docker?
It does not exists in Fedora 31. What is the issue with Podman support?
I didn't know it was removed, and I don't know what "Podman" is. Is that a Docker clone?
It's a mostly compatible command line wise with the old docker, no daemon, OCI (open container initiative) comlpiant container engine. https://podman.io/
Why in the world was Docker removed? Docker is the most popular container technology, so if we must embrace the "container" systems, why not include the most popular in Fedora?
Because Docker, inc decided to use 'docker' for their commercial offerings and split off the open source version as 'moby'.
moby is packaged and available in Fedora, but IMHO podman is much better. No big deamon needed, no root needed (depending on what you are doing), very responsive upstream.
(I'm sure dwalsh or others will correct me if I am off on any of the above)
kevin
Le jeudi 05 décembre 2019 à 16:42 -0700, John M. Harris Jr a écrit :
Why in the world was Docker removed? Docker is the most popular container technology, so if we must embrace the "container" systems, why not include the most popular in Fedora?
Because moby (née docker) is a trainwreck on the technical side (sky- high bundling of git snapshots, with disagreement on the correct snapshot to bundle between various components, that make maintaining docker, and pulling it forward, for example for changes cgroup-side, a major endeavour).
In other words: classical technical debt accumulations. Lots of unhealthy technical compromises, to be first to market, and get adopted (that worked fine), and no plan to deal with what happens afterwards (long term maintenance, evolution, and support).
Regards,
On 12/6/19 5:39 AM, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
Le jeudi 05 décembre 2019 à 16:42 -0700, John M. Harris Jr a écrit :
Why in the world was Docker removed? Docker is the most popular container technology, so if we must embrace the "container" systems, why not include the most popular in Fedora?
Because moby (née docker) is a trainwreck on the technical side (sky- high bundling of git snapshots, with disagreement on the correct snapshot to bundle between various components, that make maintaining docker, and pulling it forward, for example for changes cgroup-side, a major endeavour).
In other words: classical technical debt accumulations. Lots of unhealthy technical compromises, to be first to market, and get adopted (that worked fine), and no plan to deal with what happens afterwards (long term maintenance, evolution, and support).
Regards,
Docker is still available as Moby package. Docker Inc changed their requirements on the use of the name Docker. So we stopped packaging Docker directly on Fedora. Moby is the upstream project comprising a lot of what Docker is and will be. So we ship that in Fedora.
Simultaneous with this we began working on splitting apart what was Docker into a series of smaller tools that could run any OCI/Docker Image in the same way that the Docker Daemon did. But with different security goals.
Skopeo - Allows you to copy container images from any container registry to other types of container storage including other container registries. Think of this as scp for container images. Does not require root on the host to run.
Buildah - Container image builder that allows the user to build OCI/Docker images and push them to contianer registries. Does not require root. Allows use of Dockerfile as well as simple bash scripting for creating container images. Can be run without any privilege inside of another container.
Podman - Complete replacement of the Docker CLI. Implements almost all of the familiar commands from the Docker CLI with the same CLI. alias docker=podman, and your commands should work. Works rootless as well as root. Does not require a Daemon to be run. Really works well with Systemd. Also supports lots of advanced features like Pods.
CRI-O - Container Runtime Interface Daemon for running Kubernetes workloads. Dedicated/optimized to Kubernetes. Does not support any other orchestrators.