Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/13/23 12:10 PM, Steven A. Falco wrote:
>  On 9/13/23 11:53 AM, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> > Wiki  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6
>  
> > == Summary ==
> > KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
> > Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
> > changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
> > transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
> > X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
> > desktop mode.
>  
>  I'm more than a bit concerned about dropping X11.  I am the packager for KiCad on
> Fedora.  The upstream KiCad team has stated [1] that they won't support Wayland issues
> unless they can be recreated on X11, meaning that I'll be left with no way to support
> the Fedora KiCad packages.
>  
>  For convenience, here is the relevant part of the KiCad position:
>  
>        It is known that KiCad does not work well under Wayland. There are a number of
> known issues with wxWidgets and Wayland. See the wxWidgets bug tracker for details [2]. 
> KiCad requests the XWayland compatibility layer when starting, however this is an
> emulation mode and issues arising while using this mode need to be recreated under X11
> before they will be addressed.  At the moment, Wayland has no support for cursor warping,
> which means that the KiCad features of centering the cursor when zooming, and continuously
> panning the canvas, are broken on Wayland systems.
>  
>       Steve
>  
>  [1] https://www.kicad.org/help/known-system-related-issues/
>  [2] https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxWidgets/labels/Wayland 
A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal for KDE.  Does
the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution wide; i.e. affecting all
desktops?

	Steve

F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Fabio Valentini]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco <stevenfalco(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal for KDE.  Does
> the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution wide; i.e. affecting all
> desktops? 
I assume the following is not meant literally:

"""
For Fedora Linux, the
transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
desktop mode.
"""

I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
"Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
"Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.

Fabio

F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM Fabio Valentini <decathorpe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco <stevenfalco(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal for KDE. 
> Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution wide; i.e. affecting all
> desktops?
>
>  I assume the following is not meant literally:
>
>  """
>  For Fedora Linux, the
>  transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
>  X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
>  desktop mode.
>  """
>
>  I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
>  "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
>  but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
>  "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.
>  
Yes! Sorry if it's ambiguous, it's hard to write this to account for
all the ways it can be interpreted. This is scoped to the KDE Plasma
solution stack.

Other desktops can and will make their own choices on the transition to Wayland.




--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Michael J Gruber]

Am Mi., 13. Sept. 2023 um 23:29 Uhr schrieb Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM Fabio Valentini <decathorpe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco <stevenfalco(a)gmail.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > >
>  > > A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal for
> KDE.  Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution wide; i.e. affecting
> all desktops?
>  >
>  > I assume the following is not meant literally:
>  >
>  > """
>  > For Fedora Linux, the
>  > transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
>  > X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
>  > desktop mode.
>  > """
>  >
>  > I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
>  > "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
>  > but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
>  > "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.
>  >
>
>  Yes! Sorry if it's ambiguous, it's hard to write this to account for
>  all the ways it can be interpreted. This is scoped to the KDE Plasma
>  solution stack. 
The proposal is clearly about KDE plasma and *its* sessions. Or else
"leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode" would
have to mean the end of all other desktops on Fedora ;-)

>  Other desktops can and will make their own choices on the transition
> to Wayland. 
Rightly so. Fewer and fewer will pull in X11, and that's a good change.

Now, if you (as in "they" - not  you Neal, obviously) see "change"
and
something Wayland has not worked in the past and you go ballistic
about it then for you (as in "they") that formulation might be
ambiguous. But if you take a breath or a step back or both then the
proposal is crystal clear. At the same time, there is no way around it
given upstream's directions.

Talking of upstream: I see some upstreams giving up on Wayland
support. Kicad was reported here, Scribus is another one. It's a
surprising time to do that, but probably indicates toolkit issues or
simply lack of people power. I hope we can help at least on the
toolkit side. That would be time well spent - invested in the future
of the platform. Nobody will stop anyone from shipping a plasma-x11
package (and it's ridiculous to try and read that into the proposal)
or even a full stack plasma 5, but that will just drag out the
transition that is happening nonetheless.

Full disclosure: Writing this from F38/X11/i3 ;-)
F39 should be a good release to try the switch (Wayland/sway for me),
and in fact for some releases we have had dual session options now at
least for Gnome and KDE (X11/Wayland) so that one could try and switch
apps gradually. Reliance on WebRTC (and the switches i3/sway, st/foot
etc) made me chicken out so far, but now is the time!

Michael

F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian McInerney]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023, 09:24 Michael J Gruber, <mjg(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  Am Mi., 13. Sept. 2023 um 23:29 Uhr schrieb Neal Gompa
> <ngompa13(a)gmail.com
>  >:
>  >
>  > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM Fabio Valentini <decathorpe(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > >
>  > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco <
>  stevenfalco(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > > >
>  > > > A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change
>  proposal for KDE.  Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be
>  distribution wide; i.e. affecting all desktops?
>  > >
>  > > I assume the following is not meant literally:
>  > >
>  > > """
>  > > For Fedora Linux, the
>  > > transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
>  > > X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
>  > > desktop mode.
>  > > """
>  > >
>  > > I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
>  > > "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
>  > > but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
>  > > "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.
>  > >
>  >
>  > Yes! Sorry if it's ambiguous, it's hard to write this to account for
>  > all the ways it can be interpreted. This is scoped to the KDE Plasma
>  > solution stack.
>
>  The proposal is clearly about KDE plasma and *its* sessions. Or else
>  "leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode" would
>  have to mean the end of all other desktops on Fedora ;-)
>
>  > Other desktops can and will make their own choices on the transition to
>  Wayland.
>
>  Rightly so. Fewer and fewer will pull in X11, and that's a good change.
>
>  Now, if you (as in "they" - not  you Neal, obviously) see "change"
> and
>  something Wayland has not worked in the past and you go ballistic
>  about it then for you (as in "they") that formulation might be
>  ambiguous. But if you take a breath or a step back or both then the
>  proposal is crystal clear. At the same time, there is no way around it
>  given upstream's directions.
>
>  Talking of upstream: I see some upstreams giving up on Wayland
>  support. Kicad was reported here, Scribus is another one. It's a
>  surprising time to do that, but probably indicates toolkit issues or
>  simply lack of people power. I hope we can help at least on the
>  toolkit side. That would be time well spent - invested in the future
>  of the platform. 

The decision to not support Wayland in KiCad was taken because the graphics
stacks didn't have the features we relied on to provide the UI/UX wanted by
our users (mainly pointer warping and window positioning, but there maybe
others I can't recall now), and whenever we found discussions about having
those kind of things in upstream toolkits like GTK4/Wayland, it always
seemed to be greeted with responses that that seemed to convey "don't do
that, it is terrible UI/UX and you are idiots for wanting it. We [the
upstream devs] know exactly what every application should do and so you can
either do it our way or go away and shut up." So, we decided not to invest
anymore time or energy in this and just said "we don't support Wayland." I
don't know if the attitude of the upstream projects has changed or not, but
this previous response has soured our taste for doing work on it.

-Ian


Nobody will stop anyone from shipping a plasma-x11
>  package (and it's ridiculous to try and read that into the
> proposal)
>  or even a full stack plasma 5, but that will just drag out the
>  transition that is happening nonetheless.
>
>  Full disclosure: Writing this from F38/X11/i3 ;-)
>  F39 should be a good release to try the switch (Wayland/sway for me),
>  and in fact for some releases we have had dual session options now at
>  least for Gnome and KDE (X11/Wayland) so that one could try and switch
>  apps gradually. Reliance on WebRTC (and the switches i3/sway, st/foot
>  etc) made me chicken out so far, but now is the time!
>
>  Michael
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F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Sebastian Crane]

Dear Michael,

>  Full disclosure: Writing this from F38/X11/i3 ;-)
>  F39 should be a good release to try the switch (Wayland/sway for me),
>  and in fact for some releases we have had dual session options now at
>  least for Gnome and KDE (X11/Wayland) so that one could try and switch
>  apps gradually. Reliance on WebRTC (and the switches i3/sway, st/foot
>  etc) made me chicken out so far, but now is the time! 
I'm also writing this reply from X11, but I wanted to suggest that you
try the Alacritty terminal emulator if you haven't already. It has made
a wonderful replacement for st for me (I absolutely needed full-colour
emoji support; having emojis kill my terminal and IRC client like
clockwork was not tenable. But I digress!). It claims to have full
native Wayland support, although I can't remember if I used that mode.

Best wishes,

Sebastian

F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler]

Fabio Valentini wrote:
>  I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
>  "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
>  but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
>  "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available. 
Even that is not going to happen. I do not see how they want to stop me from 
shipping a plasma-x11 package.

        Kevin Kofler