9:08 a.m.
Warren Togami wrote:
Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
>
> So? My comments weren't about gnome versus kde. I have no reason to
> expect other than that portions of the project which receive the
> greater number of developers from wherever in the community will make
> the most progress. My comments are about whether Red Hat plans to be
> just a part of the community, and your comments seem to answer than in
> the negative. Which is directly contradictory to what other folks
> from Red Hat have been saying.
>
More broadly... Fedora is not a democracy.
Fedora is a meritocracy.
Those who have done good work and the respect of their peers gain
greater credibility in the project. These people who have earned trust
from others exist at varying levels within the organization help to make
decisions.
Red Hat employees just happen to have many inputs into the Fedora
Project as part of their regular jobs.
One issue however that I see with this, is historic lack of
inter-communication between the RH Desktop team and the community. The
recent explosion on fedora-art-list is a salient example of this kind of
conflict. A perceived corporate "outsider" who had not attempted to
participate in the community prior, appeared suddenly with a
heavy-handed power play, attempting to subvert the already in-progress
community process. I did not appreciate David's attitude in that
instance, and I think David has blown his response in this thread out of
proportion.
Really, please folks, just calm down.
Fedora Desktop and Fedora KDE spins. Is that really so bad?
Speaking from a community perspective, YES. And I personally thought
that Rahul captured my feelings exactly when he said, "It would be
consistent to have something like
Fedora Desktop (GNOME edition) and
Fedora Desktop (KDE edition)
It's confusing and discriminatory to call one of the spins as the
desktop when you have more (which is likely to increase) than one
desktop oriented spins."
But I will note that the RH Desktop team (I am assuming this is for the
most part the Fedora Desktop team as well) has given little more than
lip service to Rahul's message. They have certainly not conveyed any
message along the lines, "He's got a point there, Judge..." to the
community, as heard by this community member. Rather, the message I get
over and over again is that the current Fedora desktop crew is rather
enamored with the "Fedora Desktop" spin and is not about to let go of
it, no matter how reasonable and sensible an action that might be when
viewed from 35,000 feet.
And just to make sure there is not a lack of communication between the
community (me) and you (Warren), I think the answer to your question is
unequivocally Y-E-S.
I hope that was all clear. Let me know if I should try to say it
another way.
Thanks,
-pmr
2:20 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 7
On 1/9/07, Paul Michael Reilly <pmr(a)pajato.com> wrote:
Speaking from a community perspective, YES.
Speaking from a community perspective, i completely and utterly
disagree with you.
I say we have a dance-dance-revolution dance off to decide which of us
really speaks for the community.
Go back and read my posts concerning my take on the branding issue.
There is room in the spin-space for a Gnome spin that is separate from
the Desktop spin, and you'll note that David, a member of the desktop
agreed with me about the potential future existence of pure Gnome
spin. We absolutely MUST stop this petty bickering over branding. You
have to view this entire Fedora project experiment as an incremental
growth process. If you ball your fist and shake it in the air shouting
'viva la revolution' at every opportunity you are missing the whole
point about building a sustainable long term collaboration space.
I think its pretty clear, that there is a substantial communication
break-down specifically with the Desktop team which is impairing our
ability to plan for the future. We aren't going to fix the fundamental
communication issue, by standing on soapboxes and demanding to be
heard or demanding that current decisions be undone. We may have a
chance to fix some of the underlying communication issues at FudCon so
we can avoid further bloodshed for the future. I swear to Bob that I'm
going to make sure that everyone when my physical reach during any
discussions over the communication gap will participating in such
discussion in a constructive conversation about how to fix it, instead
of just throwing around blame and accusations. Herding cats is hard,
but I found you can get a misbehaving cat to respond to you with a
simple squirt of water from a spray bottle. We'll see if the save
corrective action works for codemonkeys at FUDCon.
But more importantly in the near term. the fact that there is going to
be a KDE spin is a fundamentally important step in terms of opening
the process for community involvement. How about we, as engaged and
proactive community members, focus on making the technical side of
that happen. Whether the Desktop spin is called the Desktop spin or
the 'Office Professional Workforce of Doom' spin its trivially
unimportant compared to helping Rex get the KDE spin out the door.
The WHOLE idea of opening up the spin space for community involvement
is way way way too new to be hung up over what this crap is going to
be called in the long run. It's an evolving process, and we need to
learn when to put away the pitchforks and torches and accept
incremental gains, learn to accept that disagreements will happen in
the short term, and learn to accept that there is value towards
building long term consensus by the application of persist ant and
rational lobbying for ideas.
We absolutely MUST stop creating bad blood by insisting on belaboring
the flaws in how communication between Core planning and community
planning as been so far handled. What is happening right now isn't
helping, all we are doing now is fostering a environment where people
are talking past each other.
The Desktop spin is meant to be a best-of-breed spin, which may change
over time as applications change. That is not a bad thing. There is
room in spin space for both a Gnome and KDE spin in addition to the
Desktop spin, as I have written in previous posts. Time will tell if
the Gnome zealots who would like to see a vanilla Gnome application
stack in a spin including gnumeric,abiword,ephinany will step up and
manage the creation of a purist Gnome spin that does not suffer from
the application best-of-breed trade-offs in the Desktop spin.
-jef"my pitchfork is bigger than yours"spaleta
7:58 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 7
On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 11:20 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 1/9/07, Paul Michael Reilly <pmr(a)pajato.com> wrote:
> Speaking from a community perspective, YES.
Speaking from a community perspective, i completely and utterly
disagree with you.
I say we have a dance-dance-revolution dance off to decide which of us
really speaks for the community.
I think someone's setting up for this at the FudCon. ;-D
--
Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board
Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
8:23 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 7
tor, 11 01 2007 kl. 20:58 -0500, skrev Paul W. Frields:
On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 11:20 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On 1/9/07, Paul Michael Reilly <pmr(a)pajato.com> wrote:
> > Speaking from a community perspective, YES.
>
> Speaking from a community perspective, i completely and utterly
> disagree with you.
> I say we have a dance-dance-revolution dance off to decide which of us
> really speaks for the community.
I think someone's setting up for this at the FudCon. ;-D
I request videos of this historical showdown.
- David
--
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible
propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”
-Thomas Jefferson
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Paul W. Frields