9:07 p.m.
Hi all,
I have finished creating a mockup of the fedora 11 release notes [1]
This document has a slightly different structure than what has been
used in the past, so any comments or ideas for improvement will be
apreciated.
To make changes to the release notes, still edit the beats [2] on the
wiki, and then i can convert those changes over to DocBook (using
publican) and update the mockup[1]
Hopefully this slightly different approach will allow us to have a
better idea of what the release notes are going to loook like a bit
eariler on in the development cycle.
Cheers,
ryanlerch
ryanlerch(a)fedoraproject.org
[1] - http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes/
[2] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
12:14 a.m.
I have also added an RPM of the release notes mockup to
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes/.
cheers,
ryanlerch
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 1:07 PM, ryan lerch <ryanlerch(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
I have finished creating a mockup of the fedora 11 release notes [1]
This document has a slightly different structure than what has been
used in the past, so any comments or ideas for improvement will be
apreciated.
To make changes to the release notes, still edit the beats [2] on the
wiki, and then i can convert those changes over to DocBook (using
publican) and update the mockup[1]
Hopefully this slightly different approach will allow us to have a
better idea of what the release notes are going to loook like a bit
eariler on in the development cycle.
Cheers,
ryanlerch
ryanlerch(a)fedoraproject.org
[1] - http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes/
[2] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
12:21 a.m.
ryan lerch wrote:
I have also added an RPM of the release notes mockup to
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/Release_Notes/.
cheers,
ryanlerch
Looks good. I like this a million times better then what we've had in
the past.
However! In the PDF output, the TOC starts on the first page... and at
first I was thrown off by it. Would it be possible to have the first
page be a cover page and the TOC start on page 2?
P.S. tisk-tisk, top posting :P
12:41 a.m.
However! In the PDF output, the TOC starts on the first page... and at first
I was thrown off by it. Would it be possible to have the first page be a
cover page and the TOC start on page 2?
I am not sure...
all these items were automatically built from docbook xml by publican.
Will have to track down if there is any options in publican that i can
use to change that behaviour.
cheers,
ryanlerch
7:02 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 04:41:17PM +1000, ryan lerch wrote:
>
> However! In the PDF output, the TOC starts on the first page... and at first
> I was thrown off by it. Would it be possible to have the first page be a
> cover page and the TOC start on page 2?
>
I am not sure...
all these items were automatically built from docbook xml by publican.
Will have to track down if there is any options in publican that i can
use to change that behaviour.
This might help:
http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_90/faq.html#pageBreaks
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
1:02 a.m.
On 10.02.2009 04:07, ryan lerch wrote:
Hi all,
I have finished creating a mockup of the fedora 11 release notes [1]
This document has a slightly different structure than what has been
used in the past, so any comments or ideas for improvement will be
apreciated.
As you asked for: The design looks nice, but I for one hate html with
fixed width(¹).
CU
knurd
3:12 a.m.
Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
On 10.02.2009 04:07, ryan lerch wrote:
> I have finished creating a mockup of the fedora 11 release notes [1]
> This document has a slightly different structure than what has been
> used in the past, so any comments or ideas for improvement will be
> apreciated.
As you asked for: The design looks nice, but I for one hate html with
fixed width(¹).
I usually hate HTML fixed width too, but I imagine he used it here to
keep the same pagination as in the PDF version.
What I would like (here, but also like on other sites, like fp.o front
page) is bigger fonts. Reading such a long text on my 20" display is
painful.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/
6:06 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thorsten Leemhuis" <fedora(a)leemhuis.info>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: Fedora 11 Release Notes Update
As you asked for: The design looks nice, but I for one hate
html with fixed width(¹).
The fixed width isn't nearly as obnoxious as having every paragraph centered
in the first section. It also seems a little strange that some sections are
entirely on one html page, while others have a page for each subsection.
Perhaps it will make a little more sense when we have more content.
--McD
7:20 a.m.
Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
As you asked for: The design looks nice, but I for one hate html
with
fixed width(¹).
Me too. IMHO this is a no-go.
HTML is designed to adapt to the screen size. There are screens with widely
differing widths. Please don't hardcode the width!
Kevin Kofler
3:12 a.m.
ryan lerch schrieb:
Hi all,
I have finished creating a mockup of the fedora 11 release notes [1]
Design looks good, but...
- Credit is good, but having the first HTML page only authors is a bit
much, then the legal notice and an abstract which tells you nothing that
you wouldn't know from the title...
- I'm missing a section that gives the really important stuff at a
glance. I'm often inclined to use external sources (journals, websites)
on a release to see the most important (and visible) new stuff.
In short I'd like the first page to be a very rough overview of the
top-five or so new features and most noticeable changes (before any TOC,
abstract, legal notice), short, precise, and to the point.
My two cents,
Tim
--
Tim Niemueller <tim(a)niemueller.de> www.niemueller.de
=================================================================
Imagination is more important than knowledge. (Albert Einstein)
7:08 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:12:45AM +0100, Tim Niemueller wrote:
ryan lerch schrieb:
> Hi all,
>
> I have finished creating a mockup of the fedora 11 release notes [1]
Design looks good, but...
- Credit is good, but having the first HTML page only authors is a bit
much, then the legal notice and an abstract which tells you nothing that
you wouldn't know from the title...
- I'm missing a section that gives the really important stuff at a
glance. I'm often inclined to use external sources (journals, websites)
on a release to see the most important (and visible) new stuff.
In short I'd like the first page to be a very rough overview of the
top-five or so new features and most noticeable changes (before any TOC,
abstract, legal notice), short, precise, and to the point.
There's a release summary that's usually prepared on the wiki for this
purpose.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
8 a.m.
Paul W. Frields schrieb:
There's a release summary that's usually prepared on the wiki for this
purpose.
Ah, I missed that then. Maybe there should be a link at a prominent
position at the beginning of the release notes, or maybe the wiki
content should be duplicated in the release notes.
Tim
--
Tim Niemueller <tim(a)niemueller.de> www.niemueller.de
=================================================================
Imagination is more important than knowledge. (Albert Einstein)
8:26 a.m.
Tim Niemueller wrote:
Paul W. Frields schrieb:
> There's a release summary that's usually prepared on the wiki for this
> purpose.
Ah, I missed that then. Maybe there should be a link at a prominent
position at the beginning of the release notes, or maybe the wiki
content should be duplicated in the release notes.
There is a link already. I am not in favour of duplicating it typically
because it would also be subjected to the usual doc freezes.
Rahul
9:43 a.m.
Actually, on wide-screen monitors, I despise blogs and text-only pages
that stretch their neat paragraphs to long-spaghetti-strings just to
fill my screen.
It requires me to read horizontally for far too long, and makes
paragraph layout extremely harder to perceive, since everything's just
one or two lines.
I very much like keeping the page proportions. I can turn my monitor
wide or zoom in the page to deal with that.
I for one don't expect PDF's to reflow themselves to dynamically
stretch their text across my screen. Because it would be freaking
ugly. I'm much happier with just zooming in on the page, kept in its
correct proportions.
On 2/10/09, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Tim Niemueller wrote:
> Paul W. Frields schrieb:
>> There's a release summary that's usually prepared on the wiki for this
>> purpose.
>
> Ah, I missed that then. Maybe there should be a link at a prominent
> position at the beginning of the release notes, or maybe the wiki
> content should be duplicated in the release notes.
There is a link already. I am not in favour of duplicating it typically
because it would also be subjected to the usual doc freezes.
Rahul
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
10:37 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:43:46AM -0600, Jud Craft wrote:
Actually, on wide-screen monitors, I despise blogs and text-only
pages
that stretch their neat paragraphs to long-spaghetti-strings just to
fill my screen.
So don't maximize your browser window.
It requires me to read horizontally for far too long, and makes
paragraph layout extremely harder to perceive, since everything's just
one or two lines.
Adjust the width of the browser window to suit your preferred reading
width. Don't force upon users one particular format.
11:18 a.m.
Regrettably for my sense of self-importance, you make a good
counterpoint. I concede.
It does mean that I can't do lovely things like turn the browser
full-screen, but still have good page-proportions, however. C'est la
vie.
On 2/10/09, Chuck Anderson <cra(a)wpi.edu> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 09:43:46AM -0600, Jud Craft wrote:
> Actually, on wide-screen monitors, I despise blogs and text-only pages
> that stretch their neat paragraphs to long-spaghetti-strings just to
> fill my screen.
So don't maximize your browser window.
> It requires me to read horizontally for far too long, and makes
> paragraph layout extremely harder to perceive, since everything's just
> one or two lines.
Adjust the width of the browser window to suit your preferred reading
width. Don't force upon users one particular format.
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
11:42 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jud Craft" <craftjml(a)gmail.com>
To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
<fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Fedora 11 Release Notes Update
Regrettably for my sense of self-importance, you make a good
counterpoint. I concede.
It does mean that I can't do lovely things like turn the browser
full-screen, but still have good page-proportions, however. C'est la
vie.
Dunno, when I look at the html versions they adjust lik you would expect.
Maybe Ryan made a change last night. I have to admit, although I sympathize
with both arguments, I would probably prefer a fixed layout, but it is only
a slight preference.
But the centered text on the first page, including the entire release notes
in the "HTML single" format, now THAT is annoying.
--McD
11:42 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:37:49AM -0500, Chuck Anderson wrote:
Adjust the width of the browser window to suit your preferred reading
width. Don't force upon users one particular format.
Assuming you are human (hey, on the internet no one knows you're a
dog!) then it's a well-known fact in typographical circles that it is
uncomfortable to read lines longer than a certain width.
I cannot find a good online reference for this, but there are complex
tables showing the best width for readability for various font sizes
in "The Elements of Typographic Style" by Robert Bringhurst:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elements-Typographic-Style-Robert-Bringhurst/dp/0...
So setting a maximum width of around 66 ems is reasonable for text
meant to be read comfortably by humans.
Rich.
--
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines. Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top
12:07 p.m.
Le mardi 10 février 2009 à 17:42 +0000, Richard W.M. Jones a écrit :
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:37:49AM -0500, Chuck Anderson wrote:
> Adjust the width of the browser window to suit your preferred reading
> width. Don't force upon users one particular format.
Assuming you are human (hey, on the internet no one knows you're a
dog!) then it's a well-known fact in typographical circles that it is
uncomfortable to read lines longer than a certain width.
However typographers also use multi-column pages which are not really
that well supported in browsers so you can't apply their common
knowledge as is on the web. It's a different media than paper.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
4:39 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 07:07:54PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le mardi 10 février 2009 à 17:42 +0000, Richard W.M. Jones a écrit :
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:37:49AM -0500, Chuck Anderson wrote:
> > Adjust the width of the browser window to suit your preferred reading
> > width. Don't force upon users one particular format.
>
> Assuming you are human (hey, on the internet no one knows you're a
> dog!) then it's a well-known fact in typographical circles that it is
> uncomfortable to read lines longer than a certain width.
However typographers also use multi-column pages [...]
I think you mean "people who misunderstand the web". Please don't
confuse those with people who intelligently apply scientifically
derived principles of typography and usability to the web.
It's a different media than paper.
Indeed.
Rich.
--
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines. Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top
3:10 p.m.
Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
Assuming you are human (hey, on the internet no one knows you're
a
dog!) then it's a well-known fact in typographical circles that it is
uncomfortable to read lines longer than a certain width.
It's worse to need to scroll through meters of web page just because
somebody decided not to use your screen space for some arrogant "I know
better than you" reason.
Kevin Kofler
4:13 p.m.
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 22:10 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> Assuming you are human (hey, on the internet no one knows you're a
> dog!) then it's a well-known fact in typographical circles that it is
> uncomfortable to read lines longer than a certain width.
It's worse to need to scroll through meters of web page just because
somebody decided not to use your screen space for some arrogant "I know
better than you" reason.
Ah, see, I'm with the typographical types here.
The eye's move up and down much more easily than they move left and
right. And it's been proven that if you keep the text to they right
width (instead of using the whole page just because it's there) that
people take in much more of what they read.
And then there's conversations about white space, leading, etc, etc.
The point is, you can try to cram massive amounts into a small (or
large) space, or you can focus on presenting this important information
in an easy to read and absorb manner, and I'm all for that latter.
R.
--
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
It's much better on my side"
4:19 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:10:23PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> Assuming you are human (hey, on the internet no one knows you're a
> dog!) then it's a well-known fact in typographical circles that it is
> uncomfortable to read lines longer than a certain width.
It's worse to need to scroll through meters of web page just because
somebody decided not to use your screen space for some arrogant "I know
better than you" reason.
Well you can discard 700 years of accumulated experience into
typography and human perception if you wish.
Perhaps work on a better way to preview and scroll through web pages?
Browser UIs are hardly ideal and I can think of a few ways to
summarise long pages better than the prevalent "viewport + scrollbar"
interface.
Rich.
--
Richard Jones, Emerging Technologies, Red Hat http://et.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines. Boot with a
live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into Xen guests.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-p2v
7:51 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Niemueller" <tim(a)niemueller.de>
To: "Development discussions related to Fedora"
<fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: Fedora 11 Release Notes Update
In short I'd like the first page to be a very rough overview of
the
top-five or so new features and most noticeable changes (before any TOC,
abstract, legal notice), short, precise, and to the point.
Would be nice, but ...
Fedora has a lot of different audiences. A huge feature to one audience is
a non-event to another. The release summary on the wiki tries to get at the
big hitters, but those are big hitters in one person's opinion. In releases
like the upcoming one, even the release notes themselves are hard to triage.
There are a huge number of changes, so many that even the "important"
changes will likely make the release notes too long. We almost need
seperate announcements for each audience.
--McD
8:04 a.m.
John J. McDonough schrieb:
Would be nice, but ...
Fedora has a lot of different audiences. A huge feature to one audience
is a non-event to another. The release summary on the wiki tries to get
at the big hitters, but those are big hitters in one person's opinion.
In releases like the upcoming one, even the release notes themselves are
hard to triage. There are a huge number of changes, so many that even
the "important" changes will likely make the release notes too long. We
almost need seperate announcements for each audience.
Hmm, the journals do a pretty good job then. I understand that we have
many target audiences and you can broaden the release notes as much as
you want. But still there are usually only a handful of "big things" per
release which the news sites pick up, and mostly the chosen features
among the news sites are pretty congruent. And this core
features/changes (say the 5% of changes that interests 95% of the usersm
something like Plymouth or PackageKit comes to my mind for the last
releases) would be a good starter, maybe even to tease people to read
further.
My two cents,
Tim
--
Tim Niemueller <tim(a)niemueller.de> www.niemueller.de
=================================================================
Imagination is more important than knowledge. (Albert Einstein)
4:17 p.m.
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 13:07 +1000, ryan lerch wrote:
Hi all,
I have finished creating a mockup of the fedora 11 release notes [1]
This document has a slightly different structure than what has been
used in the past, so any comments or ideas for improvement will be
apreciated.
To make changes to the release notes, still edit the beats [2] on the
wiki, and then i can convert those changes over to DocBook (using
publican) and update the mockup[1]
Hopefully this slightly different approach will allow us to have a
better idea of what the release notes are going to loook like a bit
eariler on in the development cycle.
Looks great.
One possible change.
I understand the navigation top and bottom for text based browsers, but
given nice style sheet stuff in modern browsers (and long pages of text)
it would be good if the navigation just stayed in the same place for
modern browsers.
Is there any chance (using style sheets) that the navigation could adapt
to the needs of the browser (allowing the old school top and bottom navs
for older and text based browsers) and using a single, inplace, always
visible nav for newer browsers?
R.
--
"It's a fine line between denial and faith.
It's much better on my side"
5575
days inactive
5575
days old
26 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Chuck Anderson -
John J. McDonough -
Jud Craft -
Kevin Kofler -
Michael Cronenworth -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Nicu Buculei -
Paul W. Frields -
Rahul Sundaram -
Richard W.M. Jones -
Rodd Clarkson -
ryan lerch -
Thorsten Leemhuis -
Tim Niemueller