WG meeting will be at 16:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting on Freenode.
== Next Steps ==
- I suggest copying first two paragrahps for our so called PRD from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_PRD as was discussed two weeks ago.
- PRD - based on discussion on env-and-stacks mailing list (some discussion on pad: http://piratepad.net/PwUiH4MEPR) If we don't have any other input from other areas, we could sum up what we discussed and create list of tasks for future work (Review tool, taskotron, ...).
== Open Floor ==
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcela Mašláňová" mmaslano@redhat.com To: "Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group mailing list" env-and-stacks@lists.fedoraproject.org, "Development discussions related to Fedora" devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Monday, December 16, 2013 11:12:15 AM Subject: Agenda for today's Env-and-Stacks WG meeting (2013-12-17)
WG meeting will be at 16:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting on Freenode.
I assume you mean tomorrow?
== Next Steps ==
- I suggest copying first two paragrahps for our so called PRD from
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_PRD as was discussed two weeks ago.
- PRD - based on discussion on env-and-stacks mailing list (some discussion on pad: http://piratepad.net/PwUiH4MEPR) If we don't
have any other input from other areas, we could sum up what we discussed and create list of tasks for future work (Review tool, taskotron, ...).
== Open Floor == _______________________________________________ env-and-stacks mailing list env-and-stacks@lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/env-and-stacks
============================================ #fedora-meeting: env and stacks (2013-12-17) ============================================
Meeting started by mmaslano at 16:01:35 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2013-12-17/env_and_stacks.20... .
Meeting summary --------------- * init process (mmaslano, 16:06:46) * Big Data specific case: right now, if you want to use Scala for real work on Fedora, your option is basically to install a bunch of binaries maintained by upstreams. It would be great if we were able to better support "new" language ecosystems wholly in Fedora. (mmaslano, 16:31:08) * ACTION: tjanez will sum up Big Data SIG needs (mmaslano, 16:58:29) * ACTION: everyone will look at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD and think/work on tasks. (mmaslano, 17:05:11)
Meeting ended at 17:10:52 UTC.
Action Items ------------ * tjanez will sum up Big Data SIG needs * everyone will look at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD and think/work on tasks.
Action Items, by person ----------------------- * tjanez * tjanez will sum up Big Data SIG needs * **UNASSIGNED** * everyone will look at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD and think/work on tasks.
People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * mmaslano (70) * tjanez (51) * mattf (30) * hhorak (18) * willb (14) * sochotni (10) * zodbot (7) * Subfusc (5) * pingou (3) * pkovar1 (1) * drieden (1) * samkottler (1) * bkabrda (0) * abadger1999 (0) * juhp (0) * handsome_pirate (0) * pkovar (0)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
16:01:35 <mmaslano> #startmeeting env and stacks (2013-12-17) 16:01:35 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Dec 17 16:01:35 2013 UTC. The chair is mmaslano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:01:35 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 16:01:45 <mmaslano> #meetingname env and stacks 16:01:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env_and_stacks' 16:01:59 <mmaslano> #chair abadger1999 pkovar tjanez samkottler bkabrda handsome_pirate hhorak juhp 16:01:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 bkabrda handsome_pirate hhorak juhp mmaslano pkovar samkottler tjanez 16:02:30 * samkottler waves & will have to leave in about 15 minutes for a doctor's appointment 16:03:01 * pkovar1 is here 16:03:05 <mmaslano> who else is here 16:03:30 <mattf> o/ 16:04:05 <willb> I'm here 16:05:28 * tjanez is being late 16:06:17 <drieden> I'm here too 16:06:46 <mmaslano> #topic init process 16:06:55 <mmaslano> great, let's start 16:07:04 <mmaslano> we don't have much time for something like PRD 16:07:17 <hhorak> Hi, sorry for being late.. 16:07:38 <mmaslano> so I created something inspired by Cloud PRD https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD 16:07:53 * pingou around (and late, sorry) 16:08:26 <mmaslano> the real tasks are still little fuzzy, but I plan to work on them more if you agree with it 16:08:53 <mmaslano> mattf: great you are here. You can tell us what you need 16:09:07 <mmaslano> mattf is from Big data SIG 16:09:17 <mattf> willb, would you start? 16:10:25 <mattf> mmaslano, willb has been feeling most of the pain dealing w/ non-primary (c/c++,python,perl) language stacks in fedora 16:10:37 <willb> I think a lot of our headaches in Big Data relate to language packaging ecosystems vs Fedora 16:10:46 <willb> in particular, I have been working on Scala lately 16:12:29 <willb> in short, the main issues are widespread Ivy for dependency management (mizdebsk has been working on this) and very brittle versioning (there is the expectation that you'll be able to have particular versions of the runtime, compiler, and libraries to run any nontrivial application) 16:14:22 <willb> like a lot of language stacks (e.g. rubygems, maven, eggs), there is the assumption that any developer would just be using the language stack instead of downstream dependency management, so I've had to work around a lot of those sorts of issues 16:15:15 <mattf> all those places where we have to work around things the language community does are hurdles to eventually automating / reducing maintenance package work 16:16:28 <mmaslano> we were already speaking about automation of packaging (not ready) and hosting such packages in separated repositories 16:16:29 <mattf> we also ran into this around node.js, which has its package/dep management tool available in fedora, but very little of the language ecosystem / base libraries available 16:17:04 <mmaslano> what would be good solution for you? 16:17:18 <mmaslano> SCL, or latest versions from upstream? 16:17:22 <mattf> for us the application is where we want to focus our time, but we find ourselves in the toolchain management and not getting to the application 16:18:07 <tjanez> willb, mattf, I'm glad to hear your perspective w.r.t. Stacks. Problems like you describe are very aligned with the scope of our WG 16:18:30 <mattf> the one dep i've been harping on lately is jetty. the latest from upstream doesn't support the java version that our app upstream wants to use. so having the latest in fedora is a problem. 16:18:59 <willb> jetty seems to touch a staggering number of projects in our SIG, too 16:19:54 <mattf> mmaslano, something that would have helped (and probably will in the future) is a way to provide language ecosystems in fedora in a way that aligns w/ how the language itself is used 16:20:27 <mattf> all the modern languages have their own dep & ver management tooling 16:20:37 <mattf> and most of it doesn't align well w/ fedora 16:21:34 <mattf> mmaslano, as for SCL, they could very likely help. however, they represent an add-on to fedora 16:22:04 <mattf> almost like rpm fusion, or all the extra repos from early fedora version 16:22:09 <sochotni> so what was that about jetty? 16:22:15 <willb> in the scala case, Fedora would allow us to provide scala 2.9 and 2.10 packages in the same release, but to really work with scala, we'd need both of those resolvable via Ivy, and not just "scalac29" and "scalac210" binaries 16:22:30 <mmaslano> mattf: yes, on last fesco meeting was decided, that additional repositories are acceptable, but content has to be reviewed anyway 16:23:53 <mattf> sochotni, rsquared is the best person to talk about the jetty situation. the exec summary is the version of jetty in fedora does not work w/ java 6 and the hadoop upstream isn't ready to abandon java 6. so we end up maintaining a patch to hadoop for jetty 9 that will live purely in fedora for quite a while to come 16:25:02 <mattf> sochotni, i believe there was some chatter about compat packages for jetty libs too. that might be a workaround for f21/22 or so, but ultimately there's a mismatch in expectations between fedora and languages like java / scala / js that should be resolved 16:25:26 <mattf> (i should note, there's been a lot of good work on figuring it out for java) 16:25:29 <sochotni> mattf: we don't jave JDK 6 in Fedora 18+ 16:26:08 <mattf> sochotni, i believe the compat lib discussion hinged on fedora policy and the compat library working w/ java 7 16:26:26 <sochotni> mattf: compat lib of what package? 16:26:27 <mattf> of course that workaround might stop working if the only jetty code doesn't work w/ say java 8 or java 9 16:26:58 <mattf> sochotni, we should chat w/ rsquared on the specifics 16:27:03 <tjanez> So, the question is, is WG willing to work towards integrating upstream language packaging systems 16:27:31 <tjanez> This could complement the existing RPM-based packaging 16:28:17 <mmaslano> tjanez: good point 16:28:30 <tjanez> It would certainly benefit the needs of the Big Data SIG 16:28:43 <sochotni> this is probably too specific task 16:28:44 <tjanez> The Big Data SIG use case could also be put in the PRD 16:28:55 <sochotni> might be a good test case but that's probably it 16:29:03 <mattf> i'd argue that steps in that direction will benefit the needs of groups that want to bring applications written in "new" languages to fedora 16:29:52 <mattf> (where "new" == actually really old languages) 16:29:55 <tjanez> mmaslano, do you feel upstream packaging is in our scope or not? 16:30:13 <sochotni> tjanez: that's not something you will solve in a WG 16:30:14 <mmaslano> tjanez: I thought we agreed it could be done automatically 16:30:22 <sochotni> you need someone who will *actually* work on the code 16:30:24 <mmaslano> tjanez: at least for some languages 16:30:41 <willb> again with my specific case: right now, if you want to use Scala for real work on Fedora, your option is basically to install a bunch of binaries maintained by upstreams. It would be great if we were able to better support "new" language ecosystems wholly in Fedora. 16:30:43 <sochotni> all you can agree is "yes we want to do that" 16:31:08 <mmaslano> #info Big Data specific case: right now, if you want to use Scala for real work on Fedora, your option is basically to install a bunch of binaries maintained by upstreams. It would be great if we were able to better support "new" language ecosystems wholly in Fedora. 16:31:26 <mattf> nice 16:31:31 <tjanez> sochotni: well, I hope our WG will start working on things we put in the PRD 16:31:31 <tjanez> and by working I mean coding 16:31:51 <mmaslano> still someone has to write automation for "new" language and maintain it 16:32:07 <mmaslano> also I don't think packages without review can get into Fedora 16:32:12 <mmaslano> legal issues.. 16:32:47 <hhorak> mmaslano: reviews could be done the first time and every-time something big changes in the package, but simple rebase could be done outomatically 16:33:07 <tjanez> sochotni: First I would like to see if we at least agree that complementing RPM packaging with upstream packaging is a viable way for the future 16:33:13 <mattf> that's an interesting point. there's always going to be a human component to packaging. however, we could probably write down that small list and try to automate the rest. 16:33:25 <mmaslano> tjanez: I agree 16:33:44 <tjanez> mmaslano: well, we would start with one language 16:33:52 <hhorak> so the packaging tool should be able to say "this rebase is suspiciously serious, we need a manual review" 16:34:13 <tjanez> mmaslano: but the common thing with all languages would be the concept of co-existance with RPM packages 16:34:28 <mmaslano> now I'm confused 16:34:39 <mmaslano> mattf: do you want to package upstream into rpm or not? 16:34:49 <sochotni> what I *could* imagine is some wrapper around pip/rubygems or alternative packaging systems 16:35:11 <hhorak> mmaslano: I think the tool should produce rpms in the end 16:35:18 <tjanez> mmaslano: +1 good question 16:35:25 <sochotni> but policy of updates...my head starts to hurt just thinking about it 16:35:37 <mattf> mmaslano, i want to package upstream into something that fedora will happily include directly in its ecosystem 16:35:59 <mmaslano> mattf: I'd like to see something like that too 16:36:20 <mattf> in other words, the form (rpm, deb, npm, other) isn't as important to me 16:36:41 <hhorak> sochotni: even now many people do big updates that introduce new issues according to guidelines and only if someone notices it it gets resolved.. 16:36:48 <mmaslano> #proposal add automatic packaging of upstreams into WG goals 16:36:59 <mattf> hhorak, too true! 16:37:47 <tjanez> mattf, well from the consumer (aka big data user) point-of-view, the form is not important, from the distribution point-of-view it is 16:38:14 <mattf> hhorak, there's little infrastructure that i see for CI around fedora. you're a lib that has 12+ users, well when you update you should maybe rebuild your deps to find breaks. 16:38:24 <mattf> hhorak, fedora has a very reactive model atm 16:38:26 <hhorak> what I can't imagine is including a really new package without a review.. I mean at least initial review would have to be done manually, but with something like fedora-review it shouldn't be too hard 16:38:36 <mattf> tjanez, that's fair 16:40:03 <mmaslano> #proposal add automatic packaging of upstreams into WG goals. Initial review of packages will be neded. 16:40:03 <tjanez> mmaslano, I'm ok with that, I would just like to clarify a bit more what the final form of that packaging would look like 16:40:03 <tjanez> would it be Fedora-approved subset of upstream packaging repositories 16:40:03 <tjanez> and the users would use tools like pip 16:40:04 <tjanez> or would it be an rpm repository automatically generated with *2rpm tools 16:40:05 <mmaslano> any votes? 16:40:07 <tjanez> and the users use dnf (distro tools) 16:40:18 <hhorak> mmaslano: +1 16:40:29 <mmaslano> tjanez: I would stay with rpm, we alredy know how it works 16:40:33 <mmaslano> (most of the time) 16:41:01 <willb> tjanez, to some extent, the existing processes are important for consumers as well as for the distro. For any reasonable list of advantages we can list for using Fedora, most of them come from being well-integrated with the Fedora ecosystem and from having packages that follow Fedora processes. 16:42:25 <hhorak> tjanez: I don't think we should provide any bits outside rpms, it would require to solve all the issues that rpm solves today again and again for every language stack 16:42:36 <willb> hhorak, +1 16:43:07 <tjanez> Ok, you convinced me 16:43:22 <tjanez> I just wanted to put it out so we discuss it 16:43:23 <hhorak> tjanez: what I can imagine is creating something that would work like pip, but would actually work with rpms in the background.. (not familiar to pip, so maybe it is not easy) 16:44:01 <willb> IMHO RPM/rubygems integration and xmvn are good examples of language-specific packaging systems working well in Fedora 16:44:15 <mmaslano> hhorak: why? we have dnf/yum already. it's not obvious to me, why create another tool for installation 16:44:18 <tjanez> hhorak: +1 16:44:49 <tjanez> mmaslano: it would be just a conveniece wrapper for dnf/yum 16:45:10 * pingou doesn't see the point of wrapping wrapper 16:45:18 <mmaslano> tjanez: I wouldn't say just in case of dnf 16:46:37 <mmaslano> it seems to me Fedora users need some way how automatically generate packages from upstream. Implementation details can be solved later 16:47:02 <tjanez> well, the use case I can see is to attract developers with different backgrounds 16:47:03 <tjanez> they maybe very familiar with pip/rubygems/... 16:47:19 <tjanez> ok, fair enough 16:48:33 <mmaslano> tjanez: yeah, but which tool would you pick? pip/rubygems? you would probably have to patch all these tools 16:49:12 <tjanez> mmaslano, I would change your proposal to something like: automatic packaging of upstream language repositories into rpm-based repositories. Initial review of distributed packages would still be needed 16:49:17 <hhorak> mmaslano: I understand that as users just don't want to use dnf, because the style of work is way different from their language-specific tools.. that's why they would like to use what they use in other distributions (language specific ways, pip for example).. but command name doesn't matter, it's more about style of work, so if dnf can be as easy to use as these language-specific tools, then we can stay with pure dnf.. Maybe I didn't ca 16:50:14 <mmaslano> hhorak: we are missing end of sentence, not all irc clients can display so long messages ;-) 16:50:18 <mmaslano> tjanez: ok +1 16:50:24 <tjanez> mmaslano: yes, you would have to patch all of them. Or rather, replace them with commands that have the same CLI 16:51:02 <tjanez> mmaslano: but yea, this is an implementation detail that can be added or not later 16:51:08 <mmaslano> tjanez: at this moment it seems to me as far away future, because we don't even have the automatic packaging :) 16:51:10 <hhorak> mmaslano: sorry ;) my point was to try to understand why people don't like dnf/rpm/yum and prefer language specific tools 16:51:32 <Subfusc> the advantage of distribution tools for language specific purposes is not that they can install $random_language_pack but that they work in isolated environments (like with python-virtualenv) 16:51:50 <Subfusc> atleast that is how i see it 16:52:00 <pingou> mmaslano: we do have a number of *spec tools :) 16:52:01 <mmaslano> Subfusc: I guess in near future everything will be in container. So that's solved 16:52:40 <tjanez> #proposal Add to tasks/goals of our WG: Automatic packaging of upstream language repositories into rpm-based repositories. Initial review of distributed packages would still be needed 16:53:46 <tjanez> My proposal would actually just clarify the "The automatic packaging" task in mmaslano's PRD draft 16:53:49 <mmaslano> tjanez: still +1 16:54:46 <hhorak> tjanez: +1 16:55:37 <tjanez> It would be great if we also add a short summary of what mattf and willb said earlier 16:55:39 <hhorak> Subfusc: thanks for that point. After quick reading it seems like virtualenv is kind of a python version of software collections, or do I understood it wrong? 16:56:17 <tjanez> Maybe as a "problem case" the WG is solving with that particular task 16:56:19 <mmaslano> tjanez: do you want to sum it up? 16:56:40 <tjanez> Yes, I can and then put it in the wiki 16:57:11 <willb> tjanez, if you want some more detail, I wrote up some of the Scala-specific issues in August (http://chapeau.freevariable.com/2013/08/making-fedora-a-better-place-for-sca...) and have been posting updates to the wiki here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/bigdata/packaging/Scala 16:57:23 <tjanez> Maybe better if I do it after the meeting 16:57:42 <tjanez> willb, thanks, I will look at it 16:57:49 <willb> thanks 16:58:29 <mmaslano> #action tjanez will sum up Big Data SIG needs 16:58:40 <Subfusc> hhorak: I'm not that familiar with software collections, but it works in complete isolation with every virtualenv having its own libraries and it lives on $HOME so that non-admins can administer it. Software collections does not seem to completely envelop this concept 16:59:20 <Subfusc> the install in home folder is the primary feature that makes virtualenv easy to use for developers 16:59:33 <tjanez> mmaslano: should "problem cases" be a new section or just a sub-bullet under automated packaging task 16:59:41 * mmaslano will need to leave in few minutes 16:59:56 <mmaslano> tjanez: the whole task section is open for editing 17:00:04 <hhorak> Subfusc: right, user-specific installation is missing.. 17:00:06 <mmaslano> I guess the rest is okay 17:00:22 <mmaslano> tjanez: I copied topic which were discussed in last few weeks 17:00:36 <tjanez> Ok, are there any takers for writing up other tasks in the PRD? 17:00:59 <hhorak> if the task list gets longer in the future, tasks could be separated into two groups as discussed two weaks back, to primary and secondary (less priority) tasks 17:01:18 <Subfusc> hhorak: its also easy to install and edit libraries without affecting anything else (which a system wide installation could not emulate) 17:01:20 <tjanez> We have to speed things up a bit 17:01:38 <tjanez> Jan 14th is coming very quickly 17:01:40 <mmaslano> tjanez: I'll try to specify some. But it should be short definition up to 6 sentences 17:01:55 <mmaslano> tjanez: yeah, that's the reason why I've started with prd without discussion 17:01:58 <tjanez> When will we have our next meeting? 17:02:06 <hhorak> tjanez: you mean what we discussed so far or some new tasks? 17:02:24 <tjanez> hhorak: the things from our discussions 17:02:30 <mmaslano> tjanez: imho January 7 17:02:54 <mmaslano> not much time, let's add as many tasks as possible now 17:03:01 <mmaslano> and we can review it by email 17:03:04 <tjanez> I think we have to look through the IRC logs and extract the things already said 17:03:41 <mmaslano> I tried to do it on my blog, but only from last 3 meetings 17:04:11 <tjanez> Ok, I'll look at your blog post 17:04:43 <mmaslano> for the record http://mmaslano.livejournal.com/ 17:04:51 <tjanez> I'll certainly help, since I'll have more free time around the holidays 17:05:11 <mmaslano> #action everyone will look at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD and think/work on tasks. 17:05:32 <mmaslano> #info deadline for PRD is January 17th 17:05:44 <hhorak> mmaslano: ^date -d '2014-01-07' +"%V" says 02 so it should be at 13:00UTC 17:05:45 <mmaslano> or 14th? 17:05:47 <tjanez> I hope others will join to create a better PrD 17:06:02 <mmaslano> tjanez: hopefully 17:07:02 <tjanez> mmaslano: well it's actually Jan 13 (see: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1196) 17:07:10 <mmaslano> #undo 17:07:10 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x11d6e7d0> 17:07:16 <mmaslano> #info deadline for PRD is January 14th 17:07:43 <mmaslano> #info next meeting will be on 13:00UTC January 7th 17:07:50 <mmaslano> tjanez: thanks 17:08:01 <mmaslano> if you don't have any other topics, I would like to close the meeting 17:08:09 <mattf> mmaslano, thanks for having us 17:08:24 <tjanez> mmaslano, you still put in the wrong date? 17:08:44 <tjanez> or has it been changed from Jan 13 to Jan 14? 17:09:15 <willb> thanks all 17:09:42 <mmaslano> aaa 17:09:49 <mmaslano> #undo 17:09:49 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xf892910> 17:09:55 <hhorak> thank you all and enjoy Chrismas! 17:10:02 <mmaslano> #undo 17:10:02 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xf892dd0> 17:10:10 <mmaslano> #info deadline for PRD is January 13th 17:10:17 <mmaslano> #info next meeting will be on 13:00UTC January 7th 17:10:20 <tjanez> mmaslano: sorry for the trouble 17:10:35 <mmaslano> I hope meeting log will be nice :) 17:10:42 <mmaslano> let's go home 17:10:48 <mattf> ciao 17:10:49 <tjanez> Thank you for a good meeting 17:10:52 <mmaslano> #endmeeting
============================================ #fedora-meeting: env and stacks (2014-01-07) ============================================
Meeting started by mmaslano at 13:00:41 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-01-07/env_and_stacks.20... .
Meeting summary --------------- * init process (mmaslano, 13:01:15)
* PRD (mmaslano, 13:04:16) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD (mmaslano, 13:04:20) * ACTION: tomorrow will be finished first draft (mmaslano, 14:17:39)
Meeting ended at 14:17:43 UTC.
Action Items ------------ * tomorrow will be finished first draft
Action Items, by person ----------------------- * **UNASSIGNED** * tomorrow will be finished first draft
People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * tjanez (42) * juhp_ (37) * mmaslano (28) * samkottler (14) * hhorak (10) * bkabrda (6) * pkovar (5) * pingou (4) * zodbot (4) * pkovar1 (2) * sochotni (2) * hhorak1 (1) * abadger1999 (0) * juhp (0) * handsome_pirate (0)
13:00:41 <mmaslano> #startmeeting env and stacks (2014-01-07) 13:00:41 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jan 7 13:00:41 2014 UTC. The chair is mmaslano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:00:41 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 13:00:51 <mmaslano> #meetingname env and stacks 13:00:51 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env_and_stacks' 13:01:07 <mmaslano> #chair abadger1999 pkovar tjanez samkottler bkabrda handsome_pirate hhorak juhp 13:01:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 bkabrda handsome_pirate hhorak juhp mmaslano pkovar samkottler tjanez 13:01:15 <mmaslano> #topic init process 13:01:18 * samkottler is here 13:01:28 <juhp_> hi 13:01:31 <tjanez> Hi 13:02:19 <bkabrda> hi 13:02:22 <pkovar> hi there 13:02:53 <mmaslano> hi guys 13:02:57 <hhorak1> Hi 13:04:16 <mmaslano> #topic PRD 13:04:20 <mmaslano> #info https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD 13:06:05 <mmaslano> did you have time to read it? 13:06:30 <samkottler> I've gone through it a bit, I think one big gap is that we don't have user stories 13:06:44 <mmaslano> feel free to define them 13:07:40 <tjanez> samkottler: I was thinking about it since I had a homework last to time to summarize the Big Data SIG use case 13:08:42 <tjanez> Should we have an additional section in the PRD for Use cases? 13:08:52 <tjanez> Or should we emulate Personas? 13:09:58 <juhp_> probably use cases would be ok? 13:11:31 <hhorak> I guess use cases could be part of the particular taks' definition, I don't think we have some general group use cases, do we? 13:12:06 <pkovar> hhorak, +1 13:13:49 <tjanez> hhorak, your proposal is probably ok for simpler use cases, but a more complex description of, for example, what the Big Data SIG wishes from our WG should be described separately 13:15:04 <bkabrda> tjanez: but if the Big Data SIG wants that, they should provide use cases and we should think about how we solve them, right? 13:16:11 <mmaslano> tjanez: if I remember correctly, they wanted scl 13:16:21 <tjanez> bkabrda, agreed. That's why I was in favor of having a separate section in the PRD. 13:17:30 <tjanez> mmaslano, they want a way to provide language ecosystems in fedora that aligns w/ how the language itself is used 13:17:37 <juhp_> I think the PRD tasks list looks pretty good - though maybe a bit ambitious of one year :) 13:17:47 <juhp_> of = for 13:18:11 <tjanez> SCLs are a part of the solution 13:18:11 <hhorak> tjanez: if these use cases are covered by more tasks, then yes. But I don't think we have such general use cases right now. 13:18:26 <mmaslano> tjanez: I'm not against their usecase, but I guess we don't have time to create so many Personnas as Server did 13:18:48 <tjanez> Ok, I agree it would look a bit odd to only have one use case 13:19:12 <mmaslano> tjanez: feel free to add it. I don't think we have people for doing more 13:19:13 <tjanez> in that case it would be better to put it as an example under one task 13:20:11 <mmaslano> samkottler: do you have more usecases on your mind? 13:20:24 <mmaslano> samkottler: um user stories? 13:20:28 <samkottler> I think the main ones from my perspective are: 13:20:37 <samkottler> 1) the big data stuff they've asked for 13:20:50 <samkottler> 2) the 'developer who deploys code' use case 13:21:12 <samkottler> 3) people who want to redistribute applications using SCL 13:21:32 <samkottler> there are a lot more, but those are the main overview ones 13:24:05 <mmaslano> samkottler: can you add it there? 13:24:20 <tjanez> I agree that the PRD task lisk is pretty big. Do we want to eliminate the tasks that we deem not to important / out-of-scope or do we want to put "everything we came up with" in the PRD? 13:24:21 <samkottler> mmaslano: yeah, I'll write up my thoughts on it after the meeting 13:24:43 <samkottler> tjanez: I think we can remove very specific stuff and just make it high level 13:25:16 <tjanez> samkottler, I have something for the big data stuff user story in mind. Want me to take it? 13:25:28 <samkottler> tjanez: sounds good 13:25:37 <samkottler> or we can talk after and figure out where things overlap and go from there 13:25:38 <juhp_> samkottler, I agree good to have user stories to motivate the task list 13:26:25 <tjanez> samkottler, ok 13:26:41 <hhorak> tjanez: Some kind of highlighting was also on my mind -- at least labeling some tasks as important and consider the rest as nice to have 13:26:49 <juhp_> there might be some user stories in the Workstation PRD too - eg developers wanting latest stacks etc 13:27:02 <samkottler> well the PRD shouldn't really be a task list, it should be a document showing our purpose 13:27:10 <samkottler> tasks can be defined completely outside of that 13:27:15 <juhp_> true 13:27:52 <tjanez> hhorak, yes that would be good. We don't want to promise too much and then underdeliver 13:28:54 <hhorak> samkottler: I agree, but what we have that is actually what I'd expect, just call it differently than "tasks", maybe "goals"? 13:29:09 <samkottler> hhorak: +1 to goals 13:29:15 <juhp_> I will probably re-read the draft Workstation PRD and can try to pick out any potential user stories for this WG at the same time 13:29:16 <tjanez> samkottler, I agree with you that our PRD should also include a paragraph about the general purpose of our WG 13:30:06 <juhp_> yeah Goals sounds better probably 13:30:19 <tjanez> +1 for goals 13:30:51 <juhp_> we can break out more detail tasks etc latter based on the Goals list :) 13:32:23 <tjanez> Regarding the purpose/aim of our WG, I have two proposals: 13:32:29 <tjanez> Our WG incubates ideas, some will be later abandoned, some will be re-iterated and formalized and then put into Fedora *proper* (we also need to define Fedora *proper*) 13:32:35 <tjanez> 2) We are working on enabling new things (including new ways to get Fedora, new things that are Fedora) 13:32:45 <tjanez> Both are from our previous IRC meetings 13:36:36 <juhp_> I missed the last meetings last month so may be missing some context, but personally I feel more excited and motivated by (2) 13:37:45 <hhorak> tjanez: I understand "proper" as "stable" 13:39:37 <juhp_> do we have a deadline for the current scoping/planning phase or for the "PRD" at least? 13:40:02 <hhorak> juhp_ I guess the deadline is on Monday 13:40:20 <juhp_> ok right 13:40:28 <tjanez> hhorak, "stable" is probably also too vague. I was thinking more in terms of "Officially released and endorsed (supported?) by the Fedora Project." 13:40:32 <pkovar> yep, it should be jan 13 13:41:20 <juhp_> official Fedora 13:42:10 <hhorak> tjanez: juhp_: that seems fine to me 13:42:31 <juhp_> so we probably need a draft ready within the next couple of days for final review? 13:43:06 <mmaslano> yes 13:44:23 <tjanez> Should we leave the task list as it is and work on polishing the PRD or do we want to shorten it, pick focus? 13:45:56 <mmaslano> tjanez: mostly there are listed tasks, which have dedicated developer 13:45:57 <bkabrda> tjanez: I'm for shortening. let's leave out the things that are marked as "out of scope" (CI, scl-utils v2) 13:47:48 <hhorak> bkabrda: I'd rather leave it there, maybe move it to special category "out of scope", since otherwise somebody can come up with the same topic in a year again and again, while not knowing that it is out of scope.. 13:48:22 <pkovar> yes, that makes sense 13:48:44 <bkabrda> hhorak: sounds good 13:48:51 <pkovar> i think a special section at the bottom can't hurt 13:49:42 <juhp_> so should we add a Goals section? 13:50:18 <tjanez> juhp_, I though we want to rename the Tasks section to Goals 13:51:50 <juhp_> yes 13:51:57 <juhp_> just checking :) 13:52:36 <tjanez> ok :) 13:52:57 <mmaslano> so, when do you plan to finish it? 13:53:12 <mmaslano> because we should approve it before saying it's okay 13:53:19 <juhp_> right 13:54:04 <juhp_> we might need a couple of rounds of drafts - time is certainly short 13:55:14 <hhorak> If we want to label some tasks/goals as our priority, I'd propose those that have some requirement already: taskotron, scls, copr, documentation for scl 13:55:38 <juhp_> +1 13:56:10 <mmaslano> +1 13:56:14 <tjanez> hhorak, +1 13:56:48 <juhp_> I like some of the Automation stuff too 13:57:49 <juhp_> but I agree focusing is good 13:58:06 <tjanez> If pingou plans on working on "Automated package review tools", we could also mark that as a pripority 13:58:18 <juhp_> ah yeah 14:00:35 <tjanez> Some parts of the Tasks/Goals list seem to terse to me (e.g. Build systems, SCL). Does anyone share that opinion? 14:01:20 <juhp_> so can we have a final draft ready by Thursday so we can all vote/approve it by Friday hopefully? 14:01:26 <juhp_> tjanez, I tend to agree 14:02:00 <juhp_> probably good to reword some of it after changing Tasks to Goals 14:02:15 <tjanez> juhp_, +1 for Thursday 14:03:22 <juhp_> or is Thu too late? well maybe we need a initial draft for review tomorrow? 14:03:58 <tjanez> juhp_, yes, we need to polish the wording and make it understandable for someone not coming from our WG (Fedora even). 14:03:58 <mmaslano> I'm fine with Thursday, but I already wrote what I want 14:04:44 <juhp_> mmaslano, okay :) 14:06:03 <juhp_> mmaslano, it is ok for us to edit that page right? :) 14:06:36 <mmaslano> right 14:06:47 <tjanez> I don't know enough about the details of the Build systems, SCLs and CI, but I would ask someone knowledgeable to expand and clarify those parts 14:07:20 <juhp_> probably good if people can post to the mailing list after making larger changes to it anyway - I will try to keep an eye on the page and also help with editing 14:07:38 <juhp_> tjanez, +1 14:07:53 <tjanez> CI is probably not critical, since it will be put in the Out-of-scope section, right 14:08:03 <pkovar1> (i can also help with editing) 14:08:04 <pingou> tjanez: my idea was about moving the packge review off bugzilla and integrate it with fedora-review, so "tools" might be a little excessive :) 14:08:43 <tjanez> pingou, thanks for dropping in :) 14:08:47 <pingou> sure thing 14:08:55 <mmaslano> pingou: sounds lovely 14:09:18 <pingou> mmaslano: gotta say, I've had the idea for a little while :] 14:09:19 <tjanez> well, feel free to edit that part of the PRD. I wrote it based on the email by sochotni 14:10:14 <tjanez> I put a general term "Automated package review tools" in the PRD, since PRDs are suppose to be general 14:10:35 <juhp_> and for things we think should be changed/updated/expanded maybe good to post specific suggestions/question to the ml to get attention 14:10:47 <pingou> tjanez: well that part seems like a nice TODO list for the tool :D 14:11:22 <tjanez> pingou: yes, I agree :) 14:12:23 <tjanez> juhp_: yes, it's probably best to highlight the "controversial" parts and discuss them on the ML 14:13:03 <mmaslano> could someone finish meeting instead of me? I have to go to another meeting 14:13:49 <tjanez> mmaslano, I can finish it, just tell me where to find a cheat-sheet for the commands 14:13:50 <juhp_> tjanez, right or like you said things one is unsure about 14:14:25 * bkabrda needs to go, too 14:14:51 <sochotni> tjanez: https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot 14:15:13 <sochotni> at least I think so :-0 14:15:25 <tjanez> sochotni, thanks 14:16:11 <tjanez> Well, do we agree that the first draft should be ready tomorrow? 14:16:16 <mmaslano> +1 14:16:20 <tjanez> And the final draft on Thursday 14:16:25 <juhp_> +1 14:16:31 <hhorak> +1 14:16:32 <juhp_> sounds good to me 14:16:35 <bkabrda> +1 14:16:47 <mmaslano> or do you want to close meeting right now? 14:16:55 <tjanez> +1 14:17:00 <tjanez> mmaslano, you can close 14:17:04 <juhp_> +1 14:17:13 <pkovar1> +1 14:17:39 <mmaslano> #action tomorrow will be finished first draft 14:17:43 <mmaslano> #endmeeting
This should be obviously yesterday meeting minutes.
On 01/07/2014 03:54 PM, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
============================================
#fedora-meeting: env and stacks (2014-01-07)
Meeting started by mmaslano at 13:00:41 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-01-07/env_and_stacks.20...
.
Meeting summary
init process (mmaslano, 13:01:15)
PRD (mmaslano, 13:04:16)
- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD (mmaslano, 13:04:20)
- ACTION: tomorrow will be finished first draft (mmaslano, 14:17:39)
Meeting ended at 14:17:43 UTC.
Action Items
- tomorrow will be finished first draft
Action Items, by person
- **UNASSIGNED**
- tomorrow will be finished first draft
People Present (lines said)
- tjanez (42)
- juhp_ (37)
- mmaslano (28)
- samkottler (14)
- hhorak (10)
- bkabrda (6)
- pkovar (5)
- pingou (4)
- zodbot (4)
- pkovar1 (2)
- sochotni (2)
- hhorak1 (1)
- abadger1999 (0)
- juhp (0)
- handsome_pirate (0)
13:00:41 <mmaslano> #startmeeting env and stacks (2014-01-07) 13:00:41 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jan 7 13:00:41 2014 UTC. The chair is mmaslano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:00:41 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 13:00:51 <mmaslano> #meetingname env and stacks 13:00:51 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env_and_stacks' 13:01:07 <mmaslano> #chair abadger1999 pkovar tjanez samkottler bkabrda handsome_pirate hhorak juhp 13:01:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 bkabrda handsome_pirate hhorak juhp mmaslano pkovar samkottler tjanez 13:01:15 <mmaslano> #topic init process 13:01:18 * samkottler is here 13:01:28 <juhp_> hi 13:01:31 <tjanez> Hi 13:02:19 <bkabrda> hi 13:02:22 <pkovar> hi there 13:02:53 <mmaslano> hi guys 13:02:57 <hhorak1> Hi 13:04:16 <mmaslano> #topic PRD 13:04:20 <mmaslano> #info https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Mmaslano/Draft:Env_and_Stack_PRD 13:06:05 <mmaslano> did you have time to read it? 13:06:30 <samkottler> I've gone through it a bit, I think one big gap is that we don't have user stories 13:06:44 <mmaslano> feel free to define them 13:07:40 <tjanez> samkottler: I was thinking about it since I had a homework last to time to summarize the Big Data SIG use case 13:08:42 <tjanez> Should we have an additional section in the PRD for Use cases? 13:08:52 <tjanez> Or should we emulate Personas? 13:09:58 <juhp_> probably use cases would be ok? 13:11:31 <hhorak> I guess use cases could be part of the particular taks' definition, I don't think we have some general group use cases, do we? 13:12:06 <pkovar> hhorak, +1 13:13:49 <tjanez> hhorak, your proposal is probably ok for simpler use cases, but a more complex description of, for example, what the Big Data SIG wishes from our WG should be described separately 13:15:04 <bkabrda> tjanez: but if the Big Data SIG wants that, they should provide use cases and we should think about how we solve them, right? 13:16:11 <mmaslano> tjanez: if I remember correctly, they wanted scl 13:16:21 <tjanez> bkabrda, agreed. That's why I was in favor of having a separate section in the PRD. 13:17:30 <tjanez> mmaslano, they want a way to provide language ecosystems in fedora that aligns w/ how the language itself is used 13:17:37 <juhp_> I think the PRD tasks list looks pretty good - though maybe a bit ambitious of one year :) 13:17:47 <juhp_> of = for 13:18:11 <tjanez> SCLs are a part of the solution 13:18:11 <hhorak> tjanez: if these use cases are covered by more tasks, then yes. But I don't think we have such general use cases right now. 13:18:26 <mmaslano> tjanez: I'm not against their usecase, but I guess we don't have time to create so many Personnas as Server did 13:18:48 <tjanez> Ok, I agree it would look a bit odd to only have one use case 13:19:12 <mmaslano> tjanez: feel free to add it. I don't think we have people for doing more 13:19:13 <tjanez> in that case it would be better to put it as an example under one task 13:20:11 <mmaslano> samkottler: do you have more usecases on your mind? 13:20:24 <mmaslano> samkottler: um user stories? 13:20:28 <samkottler> I think the main ones from my perspective are: 13:20:37 <samkottler> 1) the big data stuff they've asked for 13:20:50 <samkottler> 2) the 'developer who deploys code' use case 13:21:12 <samkottler> 3) people who want to redistribute applications using SCL 13:21:32 <samkottler> there are a lot more, but those are the main overview ones 13:24:05 <mmaslano> samkottler: can you add it there? 13:24:20 <tjanez> I agree that the PRD task lisk is pretty big. Do we want to eliminate the tasks that we deem not to important / out-of-scope or do we want to put "everything we came up with" in the PRD? 13:24:21 <samkottler> mmaslano: yeah, I'll write up my thoughts on it after the meeting 13:24:43 <samkottler> tjanez: I think we can remove very specific stuff and just make it high level 13:25:16 <tjanez> samkottler, I have something for the big data stuff user story in mind. Want me to take it? 13:25:28 <samkottler> tjanez: sounds good 13:25:37 <samkottler> or we can talk after and figure out where things overlap and go from there 13:25:38 <juhp_> samkottler, I agree good to have user stories to motivate the task list 13:26:25 <tjanez> samkottler, ok 13:26:41 <hhorak> tjanez: Some kind of highlighting was also on my mind -- at least labeling some tasks as important and consider the rest as nice to have 13:26:49 <juhp_> there might be some user stories in the Workstation PRD too - eg developers wanting latest stacks etc 13:27:02 <samkottler> well the PRD shouldn't really be a task list, it should be a document showing our purpose 13:27:10 <samkottler> tasks can be defined completely outside of that 13:27:15 <juhp_> true 13:27:52 <tjanez> hhorak, yes that would be good. We don't want to promise too much and then underdeliver 13:28:54 <hhorak> samkottler: I agree, but what we have that is actually what I'd expect, just call it differently than "tasks", maybe "goals"? 13:29:09 <samkottler> hhorak: +1 to goals 13:29:15 <juhp_> I will probably re-read the draft Workstation PRD and can try to pick out any potential user stories for this WG at the same time 13:29:16 <tjanez> samkottler, I agree with you that our PRD should also include a paragraph about the general purpose of our WG 13:30:06 <juhp_> yeah Goals sounds better probably 13:30:19 <tjanez> +1 for goals 13:30:51 <juhp_> we can break out more detail tasks etc latter based on the Goals list :) 13:32:23 <tjanez> Regarding the purpose/aim of our WG, I have two proposals: 13:32:29 <tjanez> Our WG incubates ideas, some will be later abandoned, some will be re-iterated and formalized and then put into Fedora *proper* (we also need to define Fedora *proper*) 13:32:35 <tjanez> 2) We are working on enabling new things (including new ways to get Fedora, new things that are Fedora) 13:32:45 <tjanez> Both are from our previous IRC meetings 13:36:36 <juhp_> I missed the last meetings last month so may be missing some context, but personally I feel more excited and motivated by (2) 13:37:45 <hhorak> tjanez: I understand "proper" as "stable" 13:39:37 <juhp_> do we have a deadline for the current scoping/planning phase or for the "PRD" at least? 13:40:02 <hhorak> juhp_ I guess the deadline is on Monday 13:40:20 <juhp_> ok right 13:40:28 <tjanez> hhorak, "stable" is probably also too vague. I was thinking more in terms of "Officially released and endorsed (supported?) by the Fedora Project." 13:40:32 <pkovar> yep, it should be jan 13 13:41:20 <juhp_> official Fedora 13:42:10 <hhorak> tjanez: juhp_: that seems fine to me 13:42:31 <juhp_> so we probably need a draft ready within the next couple of days for final review? 13:43:06 <mmaslano> yes 13:44:23 <tjanez> Should we leave the task list as it is and work on polishing the PRD or do we want to shorten it, pick focus? 13:45:56 <mmaslano> tjanez: mostly there are listed tasks, which have dedicated developer 13:45:57 <bkabrda> tjanez: I'm for shortening. let's leave out the things that are marked as "out of scope" (CI, scl-utils v2) 13:47:48 <hhorak> bkabrda: I'd rather leave it there, maybe move it to special category "out of scope", since otherwise somebody can come up with the same topic in a year again and again, while not knowing that it is out of scope.. 13:48:22 <pkovar> yes, that makes sense 13:48:44 <bkabrda> hhorak: sounds good 13:48:51 <pkovar> i think a special section at the bottom can't hurt 13:49:42 <juhp_> so should we add a Goals section? 13:50:18 <tjanez> juhp_, I though we want to rename the Tasks section to Goals 13:51:50 <juhp_> yes 13:51:57 <juhp_> just checking :) 13:52:36 <tjanez> ok :) 13:52:57 <mmaslano> so, when do you plan to finish it? 13:53:12 <mmaslano> because we should approve it before saying it's okay 13:53:19 <juhp_> right 13:54:04 <juhp_> we might need a couple of rounds of drafts - time is certainly short 13:55:14 <hhorak> If we want to label some tasks/goals as our priority, I'd propose those that have some requirement already: taskotron, scls, copr, documentation for scl 13:55:38 <juhp_> +1 13:56:10 <mmaslano> +1 13:56:14 <tjanez> hhorak, +1 13:56:48 <juhp_> I like some of the Automation stuff too 13:57:49 <juhp_> but I agree focusing is good 13:58:06 <tjanez> If pingou plans on working on "Automated package review tools", we could also mark that as a pripority 13:58:18 <juhp_> ah yeah 14:00:35 <tjanez> Some parts of the Tasks/Goals list seem to terse to me (e.g. Build systems, SCL). Does anyone share that opinion? 14:01:20 <juhp_> so can we have a final draft ready by Thursday so we can all vote/approve it by Friday hopefully? 14:01:26 <juhp_> tjanez, I tend to agree 14:02:00 <juhp_> probably good to reword some of it after changing Tasks to Goals 14:02:15 <tjanez> juhp_, +1 for Thursday 14:03:22 <juhp_> or is Thu too late? well maybe we need a initial draft for review tomorrow? 14:03:58 <tjanez> juhp_, yes, we need to polish the wording and make it understandable for someone not coming from our WG (Fedora even). 14:03:58 <mmaslano> I'm fine with Thursday, but I already wrote what I want 14:04:44 <juhp_> mmaslano, okay :) 14:06:03 <juhp_> mmaslano, it is ok for us to edit that page right? :) 14:06:36 <mmaslano> right 14:06:47 <tjanez> I don't know enough about the details of the Build systems, SCLs and CI, but I would ask someone knowledgeable to expand and clarify those parts 14:07:20 <juhp_> probably good if people can post to the mailing list after making larger changes to it anyway - I will try to keep an eye on the page and also help with editing 14:07:38 <juhp_> tjanez, +1 14:07:53 <tjanez> CI is probably not critical, since it will be put in the Out-of-scope section, right 14:08:03 <pkovar1> (i can also help with editing) 14:08:04 <pingou> tjanez: my idea was about moving the packge review off bugzilla and integrate it with fedora-review, so "tools" might be a little excessive :) 14:08:43 <tjanez> pingou, thanks for dropping in :) 14:08:47 <pingou> sure thing 14:08:55 <mmaslano> pingou: sounds lovely 14:09:18 <pingou> mmaslano: gotta say, I've had the idea for a little while :] 14:09:19 <tjanez> well, feel free to edit that part of the PRD. I wrote it based on the email by sochotni 14:10:14 <tjanez> I put a general term "Automated package review tools" in the PRD, since PRDs are suppose to be general 14:10:35 <juhp_> and for things we think should be changed/updated/expanded maybe good to post specific suggestions/question to the ml to get attention 14:10:47 <pingou> tjanez: well that part seems like a nice TODO list for the tool :D 14:11:22 <tjanez> pingou: yes, I agree :) 14:12:23 <tjanez> juhp_: yes, it's probably best to highlight the "controversial" parts and discuss them on the ML 14:13:03 <mmaslano> could someone finish meeting instead of me? I have to go to another meeting 14:13:49 <tjanez> mmaslano, I can finish it, just tell me where to find a cheat-sheet for the commands 14:13:50 <juhp_> tjanez, right or like you said things one is unsure about 14:14:25 * bkabrda needs to go, too 14:14:51 <sochotni> tjanez: https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot 14:15:13 <sochotni> at least I think so :-0 14:15:25 <tjanez> sochotni, thanks 14:16:11 <tjanez> Well, do we agree that the first draft should be ready tomorrow? 14:16:16 <mmaslano> +1 14:16:20 <tjanez> And the final draft on Thursday 14:16:25 <juhp_> +1 14:16:31 <hhorak> +1 14:16:32 <juhp_> sounds good to me 14:16:35 <bkabrda> +1 14:16:47 <mmaslano> or do you want to close meeting right now? 14:16:55 <tjanez> +1 14:17:00 <tjanez> mmaslano, you can close 14:17:04 <juhp_> +1 14:17:13 <pkovar1> +1 14:17:39 <mmaslano> #action tomorrow will be finished first draft 14:17:43 <mmaslano> #endmeeting