Package naming question

[Igor Gnatenko]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello,

I would like to hear opinion of other packagers about naming. We have
`parallel` utility implemented in Rust which is drop-in replacement for GNU
parallel. I was thinking how to name package and how people would expect it to
be named. So far options are:

* rust-parallel
* parallel-rust
* parallel-rs

I dislike first one because it is not ending up in completion while second and
third are quite good.

Thoughts?
- -- 
- -Igor Gnatenko
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEhLFO09aHZVqO+CM6aVcUvRu8X0wFAlolE00ACgkQaVcUvRu8
> X0zcDg/+J4jaboaEmySwsgHiSNDfVqazoxrcZDp0abS8wRO9jSxXCPU0K/MpBgtg
> W3LnJOkEhr4WjRtwoC4MmvZf99sfBo4q6ATfd2hOg0WeYkwP36Fu9lVZUAEP6V0E
> zVNp44UCuxJNU9IxUvop4XVJOTmaF0Be3pGrJ2LRliZkIgJgzVwOk8pkv/eO1iwp
> Y5j2VK7Wjs1Z2/tuL6/u02GqZOpD/0NE145awQUp2PFNwIwYeP70UZ5OjoqdLPNO
> LAWybGPSuoaLN7xT7F3FFvqUBhU6Ypsnc2trd01DyJ81v8ITxeAxZpyMy/jLsoyU
> 0RyP5UJyzI/joGNLHDQimmBnBH3SOcVr68Sx2TIMLxmsyCFaGmv+ehZlTkRWocnM
> QWc0fKOD5FC9W7NY21NOCADG6tuIjj+n8Ncw27gbZ0gexbq/drcq9J7aaiKZ0USf
> HA7iKya6OiuSKI2GAzKGMcBzp3GKkcUl+3NSBOw2bB/fF1NneXJDL4FkQVhvC+Ta
> G9Hmz3MC+f/amozta7y+pPAzswf5yzArc1Lcw/HWx3QG3S/DAlR+fnJntf+Rgz6I
> KRYyasi+RLUizzxBnlOXsi3PM3ppErHXmCfewyyhNup0T+DQsW3Na9/q6nWea/1+
> I2WA3kZEmoYHEZM5d3r4I3vPliz0QXJQjNkpicqCxg+A85CBH44=
> =TEXI
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Giovanni]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:20:13AM +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
>  * rust-parallel
>  * parallel-rust
>  * parallel-rs 
I vote parallel-rust. It's very clear where it comes from.

This choice is probably an interesting one: it would mark some sort of best
practice for the "replacement of Y in X": x-y.

Do you think we will see a lot of rust replacements for standard
utilities in the future?

-- 
010 Giovanni [dacav] Simoni
001 <dacav(a)teknik.io&gt;
111
    OpenPGP key: 93FC 2A6A 43A4 AAC2 0D8E 5411 2F99 ABB6 BA14 DF9E

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 12/04/2017 10:33 AM, Giovanni wrote:
>  On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:20:13AM +0100, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > * rust-parallel
> > * parallel-rust
> > * parallel-rs
>  
>  I vote parallel-rust. It's very clear where it comes from.
>  
>  This choice is probably an interesting one: it would mark some sort of best
>  practice for the "replacement of Y in X": x-y. 
We already have such practices in place.

>  Do you think we will see a lot of rust replacements for standard
>  utilities in the future? 
Before such effort can take effect, replacing a well established package 
with another one will have to prove its viablity and sustainabilty.

ATM, to me personally, replacing packages with rust package qualifies as 
non-sense, probably based on personal preferences and religion.


Ralf

[Giovanni]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:56:43AM +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>  We already have such practices in place. 
Sorry, I had no idea :) Then probably that 'best practice' one would be a
good name suggestion for this case too.

Btw, where is this information? I skimmed again through the Naming
Guidelines, but I cound find no reference.

>  Before such effort can take effect, replacing a well established
> package
>  with another one will have to prove its viablity and sustainabilty.
>
>  ATM, to me personally, replacing packages with rust package qualifies as
>  non-sense, probably based on personal preferences and religion. 
Agreed. As long as there is no evident advantage, with no interface change
whatsoever, it could only break the working things which rely on the
original one! But providing a replacement does not need replacing it by
default. :)

-- 
010 Giovanni [dacav] Simoni
001 <dacav(a)teknik.io&gt;
111
    OpenPGP key: 93FC 2A6A 43A4 AAC2 0D8E 5411 2F99 ABB6 BA14 DF9E

[Adam Samalik]

What about an analogy with 'createrepo'? We have:

* createrepo
* createrepo_c

Using this same analogy:

* parallel_rust
* parallel_rs

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Igor Gnatenko <
ignatenkobrain(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA256
>
>  Hello,
>
>  I would like to hear opinion of other packagers about naming. We have
>  `parallel` utility implemented in Rust which is drop-in replacement for GNU
>  parallel. I was thinking how to name package and how people would expect
>  it to
>  be named. So far options are:
>
>  * rust-parallel
>  * parallel-rust
>  * parallel-rs
>
>  I dislike first one because it is not ending up in completion while second
>  and
>  third are quite good.
>
>  Thoughts?
>  - --
>  - -Igor Gnatenko
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >  iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEhLFO09aHZVqO+CM6aVcUvRu8X0wFAlolE00ACgkQaVcUvRu8
> >  X0zcDg/+J4jaboaEmySwsgHiSNDfVqazoxrcZDp0abS8wRO9jSxXCPU0K/MpBgtg
> >  W3LnJOkEhr4WjRtwoC4MmvZf99sfBo4q6ATfd2hOg0WeYkwP36Fu9lVZUAEP6V0E
> >  zVNp44UCuxJNU9IxUvop4XVJOTmaF0Be3pGrJ2LRliZkIgJgzVwOk8pkv/eO1iwp
> >  Y5j2VK7Wjs1Z2/tuL6/u02GqZOpD/0NE145awQUp2PFNwIwYeP70UZ5OjoqdLPNO
> >  LAWybGPSuoaLN7xT7F3FFvqUBhU6Ypsnc2trd01DyJ81v8ITxeAxZpyMy/jLsoyU
> >  0RyP5UJyzI/joGNLHDQimmBnBH3SOcVr68Sx2TIMLxmsyCFaGmv+ehZlTkRWocnM
> >  QWc0fKOD5FC9W7NY21NOCADG6tuIjj+n8Ncw27gbZ0gexbq/drcq9J7aaiKZ0USf
> >  HA7iKya6OiuSKI2GAzKGMcBzp3GKkcUl+3NSBOw2bB/fF1NneXJDL4FkQVhvC+Ta
> >  G9Hmz3MC+f/amozta7y+pPAzswf5yzArc1Lcw/HWx3QG3S/DAlR+fnJntf+Rgz6I
> >  KRYyasi+RLUizzxBnlOXsi3PM3ppErHXmCfewyyhNup0T+DQsW3Na9/q6nWea/1+
> >  I2WA3kZEmoYHEZM5d3r4I3vPliz0QXJQjNkpicqCxg+A85CBH44=
> >  =TEXI
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  


-- 

Adam Šamalík
---------------------------
Software Engineer
Red Hat

[Igor Gnatenko]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 10:50 +0100, Adam Samalik wrote:
>  What about an analogy with 'createrepo'? We have:
>  
>  * createrepo
>  * createrepo_c 
That's only because createrepo_c is upstream name.

>  Using this same analogy:
>  
>  * parallel_rust
>  * parallel_rs 
This is really worst user experience.
- -- 
- -Igor Gnatenko
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEhLFO09aHZVqO+CM6aVcUvRu8X0wFAlolHQEACgkQaVcUvRu8
> X0yaJQ/+L9WLnv2YtiRmndKs5x08R5pBb9wE6rqMCVKcdig7zvQindrJctBv7+aO
> DfpqGCCsYk54uVsv3vhoHWHoA4IwYm/AvkAyI52b9/wo0AxXvZikS0VwbqPNUuAP
> 5thG/ojTCJF7fpYHQzaoI5SIIPLyHPFksKWsYfsp08tnZ2Y8OpJeBDDE+prP0I73
> +zLD376JpfqYm7JEVUuZqIWNRrks8PlJqxzVA0yc+Py0h5eixA+ehWUDwZrvoHV6
> Vbf8taUKVwOBtH7WlWS+Eq6GDmk5CKDdEoq3Qvrec6vr8LSFKi2mWN6Jipqry8dc
> psokbiJhYG/sBGZgdaZvea4lCHW7isQHKiB4yAT0WvodphNBASfmGkQH6gKyVCL+
> eeToRMbFEX0jEj5Y58qJW5alY7MWGJrgLjTaQd8hovHV0e0Xs3M2PLecIqbt2+a3
> aZnpDa/YvcaA6zl1D6wED7ugumKdznP5iIeNMJU6gClfV48+Ox/ho4U4ABE9plle
> 0RAWHoHjppWvbBdhWINq1w16RI2+HqCCKcnBV9mW3znr01/9F0H7OZ3Wi99YKYs6
> EiftkxYrGE1xRXyTSbk8L4EXiTDZxglBtWJXGUhLekAx9wMlYYb9Vh6cx8GJOyVU
> bcvQfhLzdlh85hKiXM4hRXnKaqtdfpZ4e7U6pM5SK574WP+Osoc=
> =zzi0
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Gerald Henriksen]

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:20:13 +0100, you wrote:

> I would like to hear opinion of other packagers about naming. We have
> `parallel` utility implemented in Rust which is drop-in replacement for GNU
> parallel. I was thinking how to name package and how people would expect it to
> be named. So far options are:
>
> * rust-parallel
> * parallel-rust
> * parallel-rs
>
> I dislike first one because it is not ending up in completion while second and
> third are quite good. 
To me the second and third make it look like the package is part of
the existing parallel package - perhaps rust bindings to parallel -
and not an entirely different program.

In other words, I could see people install parallel-rust because "it
must be part of the parallel package" based on its naming and not
realize it is an entirely different program doing the same thing.

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 09:19:26AM -0500, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
>  On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:20:13 +0100, you wrote:
>  
>  >I would like to hear opinion of other packagers about naming. We have
>  >`parallel` utility implemented in Rust which is drop-in replacement for GNU
>  >parallel. I was thinking how to name package and how people would expect it to
>  >be named. So far options are:
>  >
>  >* rust-parallel
>  >* parallel-rust
>  >* parallel-rs
>  >
>  >I dislike first one because it is not ending up in completion while second and
>  >third are quite good.
>  
>  To me the second and third make it look like the package is part of
>  the existing parallel package - perhaps rust bindings to parallel -
>  and not an entirely different program.
>  
>  In other words, I could see people install parallel-rust because "it
>  must be part of the parallel package" based on its naming and not
>  realize it is an entirely different program doing the same thing. 
Yes. In other words, the problem started when somebody decided to
reimplement a well-known existing package in a different language without
changing the name. It seems like the right solution is to ask the
rust-parallel folks to rename their project instead of squatting on an
existing name.

Zbyszek

[Jun Aruga]

Perl: perl-foo
Python: python-foo
NodeJs (NPM): nodejs-foo
Ruby: rubygem-foo
R: R-foo
PHP: php-foo
Golang:  golang-foo

The prefix pattern "rust-parallel" looks better.

Jun


On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <
zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl&gt; wrote:

>  On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 09:19:26AM -0500, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
>  > On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:20:13 +0100, you wrote:
>  >
>  > >I would like to hear opinion of other packagers about naming. We have
>  > >`parallel` utility implemented in Rust which is drop-in replacement for
>  GNU
>  > >parallel. I was thinking how to name package and how people would
>  expect it to
>  > >be named. So far options are:
>  > >
>  > >* rust-parallel
>  > >* parallel-rust
>  > >* parallel-rs
>  > >
>  > >I dislike first one because it is not ending up in completion while
>  second and
>  > >third are quite good.
>  >
>  > To me the second and third make it look like the package is part of
>  > the existing parallel package - perhaps rust bindings to parallel -
>  > and not an entirely different program.
>  >
>  > In other words, I could see people install parallel-rust because "it
>  > must be part of the parallel package" based on its naming and not
>  > realize it is an entirely different program doing the same thing.
>
>  Yes. In other words, the problem started when somebody decided to
>  reimplement a well-known existing package in a different language without
>  changing the name. It seems like the right solution is to ask the
>  rust-parallel folks to rename their project instead of squatting on an
>  existing name.
>
>  Zbyszek
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  


-- 
Jun Aruga jaruga(a)redhat.com
IRC: jaruga, Office: TPB(Technology Park Brno) Building C 1F, Brno, Czech
Republic

[Fedora-packaging] Re: Package naming question

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

> >>>> "JA" == Jun Aruga <jaruga(a)redhat.com&gt;
> writes: 
JA> Perl: perl-foo Python: python-foo NodeJs (NPM): nodejs-foo Ruby:
JA> rubygem-foo R: R-foo PHP: php-foo Golang: golang-foo

Those are all for libraries in the given language.

JA> The prefix pattern "rust-parallel" looks better.

This is not a library written in rust.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Library_or_Applicatio...

If you discount the guidelines for multiple parallel-installable
versions of the same package, we don't really have an established naming
convention for alternate versions of a "thing".  Best I can think of are
things like libart_lgpl (which doesn't and maybe never did have a
non-lgpl version), reentrant versions of libraries like libqhull_r
(which has the least useful package %description I've ever seen), though
those aren't generally packaged separately, or, I don't know,
chromium-libs-media-freeworld (which I know isn't a Fedora package).

Honestly I'd just pretend that what you have really _is_ a different
version of the same package, but instead of being version '3', it's
version 'rust'.  And for that we have
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Naming#Multiple_packages_with_th...
which would suggest "parallel-rust".

For the actual executables, we have a long tradition of prefixing 'k'
for kerberized versions of things, and postfixing version numbers,
sometimes with dashes.  Which really doesn't clarify much of anything.
About all we can say with certainty is that this package can't install
/usr/bin/parallel.

 - J<

[Fedora-packaging] Re: Package naming question

[Jun Aruga]

Jason,

>  If you discount the guidelines for multiple parallel-installable
>  versions of the same package, we don't really have an established naming
>  convention for alternate versions of a "thing". 
Thanks for mentioning it and the detailed explanation.
I did misunderstand it.
I understand what you are talking about.
Yeah, the suffix style "parallel-rust" looks better.

Jun


On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:10 PM, Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs(a)math.uh.edu&gt;
wrote:

>  >>>>> "JA" == Jun Aruga
> <jaruga(a)redhat.com&gt; writes:
>
>  JA> Perl: perl-foo Python: python-foo NodeJs (NPM): nodejs-foo Ruby:
>  JA> rubygem-foo R: R-foo PHP: php-foo Golang: golang-foo
>
>  Those are all for libraries in the given language.
>
>  JA> The prefix pattern "rust-parallel" looks better.
>
>  This is not a library written in rust.
>
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#
>  Library_or_Application.3F
>
>  If you discount the guidelines for multiple parallel-installable
>  versions of the same package, we don't really have an established naming
>  convention for alternate versions of a "thing".  Best I can think of are
>  things like libart_lgpl (which doesn't and maybe never did have a
>  non-lgpl version), reentrant versions of libraries like libqhull_r
>  (which has the least useful package %description I've ever seen), though
>  those aren't generally packaged separately, or, I don't know,
>  chromium-libs-media-freeworld (which I know isn't a Fedora package).
>
>  Honestly I'd just pretend that what you have really _is_ a different
>  version of the same package, but instead of being version '3', it's
>  version 'rust'.  And for that we have
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Naming#
>  Multiple_packages_with_the_same_base_name
>  which would suggest "parallel-rust".
>
>  For the actual executables, we have a long tradition of prefixing 'k'
>  for kerberized versions of things, and postfixing version numbers,
>  sometimes with dashes.  Which really doesn't clarify much of anything.
>  About all we can say with certainty is that this package can't install
>  /usr/bin/parallel.
>
>   - J<
>  


-- 
Jun Aruga jaruga(a)redhat.com
IRC: jaruga, Office: TPB(Technology Park Brno) Building C 1F, Brno, Czech
Republic

[Fedora-packaging] Re: Package naming question

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Monday, 04 December 2017 at 23:10, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote:
[...]
>  About all we can say with certainty is that this package can't
> install
>  /usr/bin/parallel. 
Actually, it could if the packager coordinated with GNU parallel package
maintainer to use alternatives. This new package is supposed to be
a drop-in replacement, so alternatives are appropriate here.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Alternatives

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
        -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

[Fedora-packaging] Package naming question

[Björn Persson]

Igor Gnatenko <ignatenkobrain(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  I would like to hear opinion of other packagers about naming. We
> have
>  `parallel` utility implemented in Rust which is drop-in replacement for GNU
>  parallel. I was thinking how to name package and how people would expect it to
>  be named. So far options are:
>  
>  * rust-parallel
>  * parallel-rust
>  * parallel-rs 
Users of a program – as opposed to a library – don't normally need to
know what language the program is written in, and programs packaged in
Fedora – unlike libraries for some languages – don't normally have the
language in the package name.

Is your package meant to be parallel-installable with the parallel
package? If so, what is the program called, since /usr/bin/parallel is
taken? Or is it meant to conflict with GNU Parallel?

Perhaps both the program and the package should have a name that has
some connection to the purpose of the reimplementation? What would be
the reason why a user would choose the Rust implementation over GNU
Parallel? Is it meant to be faster? Even more parallel? Less buggy?
Something else?

If the only reason is that the user hates Perl and wants to use programs
written in Rust instead, then I guess it makes sense to have "rust" in
the package name.

Björn Persson

[Fedora-packaging] Package naming question

[Tomasz Torcz]

December 4, 2017 11:21 PM, "Björn Persson" <Bjorn(a)xn--rombobjrn-67a.se&gt; wrote:

>  Is your package meant to be parallel-installable with the parallel
>  package? If so, what is the program called, since /usr/bin/parallel is
>  taken? Or is it meant to conflict with GNU Parallel? 
We have solved this years ago. man alternatives

[Fedora-packaging] Package naming question

[Björn Persson]

"Tomasz Torcz" <tomek(a)pipebreaker.pl&gt; wrote:
>  December 4, 2017 11:21 PM, "Björn Persson"
> <Bjorn(a)xn--rombobjrn-67a.se&gt; wrote:
>  > Is your package meant to be parallel-installable with the parallel
>  > package? If so, what is the program called, since /usr/bin/parallel is
>  > taken? Or is it meant to conflict with GNU Parallel?  
>  
>  We have solved this years ago. man alternatives 
Even if Alternatives is used the actual executable file must still have
another pathname. It might be a good idea to coordinate that name with
the package name.

Björn Persson

[Fedora-packaging] Package naming question

[Michal Sekletar]

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Tomasz Torcz <tomek(a)pipebreaker.pl&gt; wrote:

>  We have solved this years ago. man alternatives 
alternatives is a terrible solution if you ask me. Symlink hackery in
/etc/alternatives is awful and I these days with Fedora kernel
supporting mount namespaces we could do better. But it certainly works
nonetheless.

Michal

[Fedora-packaging] Package naming question

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 6 December 2017 at 05:33, Michal Sekletar <msekleta(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Tomasz Torcz
> <tomek(a)pipebreaker.pl&gt; wrote:
>
> > We have solved this years ago. man alternatives
>
>  alternatives is a terrible solution if you ask me. Symlink hackery in
>  /etc/alternatives is awful and I these days with Fedora kernel
>  supporting mount namespaces we could do better. But it certainly works
>  nonetheless.
>  
We could do better in a lot of ways but until someone takes the risk
and puts the effort into making all the mis-steps to getting to
there... alternatives is probably going to be it.


>  Michal
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org 


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.