Why install rsyslog by default?

[Barry Scott]

I just found that rsyslog is installed and by default creating legacy
log files in /var/log like messages and secure.

Now that journald has been in Fedora for so long this is useful
default to install rsyslog?

Barry

[Robert Marcano]

On 8/25/22 11:02 AM, Barry Scott wrote:
>  I just found that rsyslog is installed and by default creating
> legacy
>  log files in /var/log like messages and secure.
>  
>  Now that journald has been in Fedora for so long this is useful
>  default to install rsyslog?
>   
I don't have it installed. I think it is usually Chrome RPM (not 
Chromium) that bring a lot of awful dependencies because it requires 
some legacy lsb packages.

Last time I installed it even pulled perl packages.

>  Barry
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[Barry Scott]

>  On 25 Aug 2022, at 16:05, Robert Marcano via devel
> <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  
>  On 8/25/22 11:02 AM, Barry Scott wrote:
> > I just found that rsyslog is installed and by default creating legacy
> > log files in /var/log like messages and secure.
> > Now that journald has been in Fedora for so long this is useful
> > default to install rsyslog?
>  
>  I don't have it installed. I think it is usually Chrome RPM (not Chromium) that bring
> a lot of awful dependencies because it requires some legacy lsb packages.
>   
Its in the dnf history info 1 so in the Fedora KDE base install, not what you suggest,
no chrome stuff installed.

Also dnf remove does not try to pull out any thing by a few deps of rsyslog.

Barry

>  Last time I installed it even pulled perl packages.
>  
> > Barry
> > _______________________________________________
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[Samuel Sieb]

On 2022-08-25 08:22, Barry Scott wrote:
> > On 25 Aug 2022, at 16:05, Robert Marcano via devel 
> > <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org <mailto:[e-mail]>> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > On 8/25/22 11:02 AM, Barry Scott wrote:
> >> I just found that rsyslog is installed and by default creating legacy
> >> log files in /var/log like messages and secure.
> >> Now that journald has been in Fedora for so long this is useful
> >> default to install rsyslog?
> >
> > I don't have it installed. I think it is usually Chrome RPM (not 
> > Chromium) that bring a lot of awful dependencies because it requires 
> > some legacy lsb packages.
> >
>  
>  Its in the dnf history info 1 so in the Fedora KDE base install, not 
>  what you suggest,
>  no chrome stuff installed.
>  
>  Also dnf remove does not try to pull out any thing by a few deps of rsyslog. 
Then it's a kde spin issue.  The workstation install doesn't include it 
and I doubt the server one does.  Maybe better to ask on the kde list.

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 2:34 PM Samuel Sieb <samuel(a)sieb.net&gt; wrote:
>  On 2022-08-25 08:22, Barry Scott wrote:
>  >> On 25 Aug 2022, at 16:05, Robert Marcano via devel
>  >> <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>  >> wrote:
>  >>
>  >> On 8/25/22 11:02 AM, Barry Scott wrote:
>  >>> I just found that rsyslog is installed and by default creating legacy
>  >>> log files in /var/log like messages and secure.
>  >>> Now that journald has been in Fedora for so long this is useful
>  >>> default to install rsyslog?
>  >>
>  >> I don't have it installed. I think it is usually Chrome RPM (not
>  >> Chromium) that bring a lot of awful dependencies because it requires
>  >> some legacy lsb packages.
>  >>
>  >
>  > Its in the dnf history info 1 so in the Fedora KDE base install, not
>  > what you suggest,
>  > no chrome stuff installed.
>  >
>  > Also dnf remove does not try to pull out any thing by a few deps of rsyslog.
>
>  Then it's a kde spin issue.  The workstation install doesn't include it
>  and I doubt the server one does.  Maybe better to ask on the kde list. 
We should remove rsyslog from @standard.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, Aug 25 2022 at 02:45:31 PM -0400, Neal Gompa 
<ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  We should remove rsyslog from @standard. 
Packages in @standard but not in @workstation-product:

at
crontabs
dbus
ed (no, really)
fprintd-pam
irqbalance
rsyslog
smartmontools
util-linux-user

Seems like if we remove a few things from @standard, we could have 
Workstation use @standard and then @workstation-product would just need 
to include extra stuff instead of duplicating most of @standard.

[Kalev Lember]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 9:07 PM Michael Catanzaro <mcatanzaro(a)gnome.org&gt;
wrote:

>  On Thu, Aug 25 2022 at 02:45:31 PM -0400, Neal Gompa
>  <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > We should remove rsyslog from @standard.
>
>  Packages in @standard but not in @workstation-product:
>
>  at
>  crontabs
>  dbus
>  ed (no, really)
>  fprintd-pam
>  irqbalance
>  rsyslog
>  smartmontools
>  util-linux-user
>
>  Seems like if we remove a few things from @standard, we could have
>  Workstation use @standard and then @workstation-product would just need
>  to include extra stuff instead of duplicating most of @standard.
>  
Yes, I agree that it would be nice if we could do that.

When I did the initial Workstation comps groups years ago I based them on
the idea that the Workstation WG had back then that all of the comps groups
that go into Workstation should be under the control of the Workstation WG
so originally it was by design that @standard didn't get used in
@workstation-product.

I don't share that view any more though and I think it would be nice to
share the maintenance burden for the low level packages that are in
@standard :) We've already got rid of the @gnome-desktop split so I think
it would make sense to do it with @standard as well.

-- 
Kalev

[Peter Robinson]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:07 PM Michael Catanzaro <mcatanzaro(a)gnome.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, Aug 25 2022 at 02:45:31 PM -0400, Neal Gompa
>  <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > We should remove rsyslog from @standard.
>
>  Packages in @standard but not in @workstation-product:
>
>  at
>  crontabs
>  dbus
>  ed (no, really)
>  fprintd-pam
>  irqbalance
>  rsyslog
>  smartmontools
>  util-linux-user
>
>  Seems like if we remove a few things from @standard, we could have
>  Workstation use @standard and then @workstation-product would just need
>  to include extra stuff instead of duplicating most of @standard. 
Yes please, I think this is a useful reduction across all desktop environments.

P

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Peter Robinson <pbrobinson(a)gmail.com&gt; said:
>  On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 8:07 PM Michael Catanzaro
> <mcatanzaro(a)gnome.org&gt; wrote:
>  > On Thu, Aug 25 2022 at 02:45:31 PM -0400, Neal Gompa
>  > <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > > We should remove rsyslog from @standard.
>  >
>  > Packages in @standard but not in @workstation-product:
>  >
>  > at
>  > crontabs
>  > dbus
>  > ed (no, really)
>  > fprintd-pam
>  > irqbalance
>  > rsyslog
>  > smartmontools
>  > util-linux-user
>  >
>  > Seems like if we remove a few things from @standard, we could have
>  > Workstation use @standard and then @workstation-product would just need
>  > to include extra stuff instead of duplicating most of @standard.
>  
>  Yes please, I think this is a useful reduction across all desktop environments. 
I don't run @workstation, so maybe there are replacements, but a few are
commonly useful:

- fprintd-pam: used for fingerprint login
- smartmontools: monitors hard disk health
- util-linux-user: chsh (used to change shell) and chfn

I'm not sure why those last two utilities merit a separate package; it's
not a size thing (the installed size is 61kB), it doesn't look like they
add any dependencies over the util-linux package.

dbus is a virtual package now for dbus-broker, so don't know if it is
needed in any setup directly.

IIRC ed was in default installs for a long time because it's part of the
POSIX spec.

I thought that irqbalance was obsoleted at some point by in-kernel
tuning, but I haven't dug deeply.  If not, it should probably be
installed just about everywhere (at least on physical systems), since
almost all CPUs are multi-core now.

I personally like rsyslog for traditional logs for some things, as its
easier to portion out limited access (for example, on some servers I
might make DHCP or mail logs readable by non-root users in a particular
group), but that's a niche usage and I don't care whether it is in
default installs.

-- 
Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net&gt;

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, Aug 25 2022 at 04:02:25 PM +0100, Barry Scott 
<barry(a)barrys-emacs.org&gt; wrote:
>  I just found that rsyslog is installed and by default 
Depends on what install media you use. It's part of the @standard comps 
group. Workstation does not use @standard for exactly this reason: it 
has extra stuff like this that's not wanted in Workstation. It would be 
nice to slim down @standard and use it everywhere.

Michael