I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the community. For this to be a success, community support is very much required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or pointers are most welcome.
Aditya Patawari wrote:
which will have all the packages of live cd
Which one? There's more than one live CD… I presume you mean the GNOME ("Desktop") one given where you cross-posted this. I think we'll either need more than one live DVD or the live DVD will have to carry more than one desktop environment (but if we choose the latter, we really need to fix GDM's usability for desktop environment selection, we have a lot of feedback from #fedora-kde and the fedora-kde ML that, after installing both, those users couldn't find KDE at all in GDM and only got into KDE once they switched to KDM, the fact that the desktop selection only shows up after you selected your user and at a location on the screen very far from the user selection is very counterintuitive).
Kevin Kofler
Well, as per the info provided by Kevin creating more than one live DVD is recommended. Also it makes more sense as the live dvd will copy the files onto the system. Environment selection is tricky and can result into an unstable or bug prone release.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.atwrote:
Which one? There's more than one live CD… I presume you mean the GNOME ("Desktop") one given where you cross-posted this. I think we'll either need more than one live DVD or the live DVD will have to carry more than one desktop environment (but if we choose the latter, we really need to fix GDM's usability for desktop environment selection, we have a lot of feedback from #fedora-kde and the fedora-kde ML that, after installing both, those users couldn't find KDE at all in GDM and only got into KDE once they switched to KDM, the fact that the desktop selection only shows up after you selected your user and at a location on the screen very far from the user selection is very counterintuitive).
Kevin Kofler
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Aditya Patawari wrote:
Well, as per the info provided by Kevin creating more than one live DVD is recommended.
I can take up the idea of a KDE Live DVD with KDE SIG. (I'm cross-posting this mail to fedora-kde.) The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff, like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
That said, getting the DVDs (also your GNOME one) mirrored might be non- trivial, especially in the beginning, as there's already (still) the installer DVD as well as both live CDs for mirrors to carry.
Kevin Kofler
Thanks Kevin for all this help. I understand that mirroring it will be difficult due to space constraints. I'll take this to fedora infrastructure as soon as we have enough members on SIG. I see that you haven't joined the SIG yet, please do join it soon.
Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.atwrote:
I can take up the idea of a KDE Live DVD with KDE SIG. (I'm cross-posting this mail to fedora-kde.) The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff, like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
That said, getting the DVDs (also your GNOME one) mirrored might be non- trivial, especially in the beginning, as there's already (still) the installer DVD as well as both live CDs for mirrors to carry.
Kevin Kofler
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Le 13/09/2009 20:29, Kevin Kofler a écrit :
The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff, like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
Well, the CD does not include most of the fonts we package. Not enough fonts is a recurrent user complaint (was moded up +5 insightful several times again when /. posted its “why users reject FLOSS apps” article). So I'd expect desktop livecds to address this.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
Le 13/09/2009 20:29, Kevin Kofler a écrit :
The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff, like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting.
Well, the CD does not include most of the fonts we package. Not enough fonts is a recurrent user complaint (was moded up +5 insightful several times again when /. posted its “why users reject FLOSS apps” article). So I'd expect desktop livecds to address this.
I think the cleanest way to fix this is to have a post-installation program for the Live CD image which offers to "Complete your installation?" and does the PackageKit equivalent of yum groupinstall <corresponding comps group>. (This is another reason why the kickstart files should only be subtraction-for-space from a comps group). The Live CD should basically be enough to bootstrap and get a good feel for the system and do basic tasks.
This also moves us much closer to having 1 defined set of things in the "installation" instead of two wildly different things which is really broken from a QA/marketing/etc. standpoint.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
I think the cleanest way to fix this is to have a post-installation program for the Live CD image which offers to "Complete your installation?" and does the PackageKit equivalent of yum groupinstall
<corresponding comps group>
We thought of this earlier. Being a fedora ambassador when I go to promote fedora the most common problem I hear is that people are not able to get everything from repo due to bad internet connection or just because they don't know what to install to get a particular job done. The problem with dvd install is that not everyone is familiar that what packages he/she require to do a particular task. Live DVD will be helpful in these situations. There won't be any need to download packages from internet as most common of them will be pre-installed.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Aditya Patawari aditya@adityapatawari.com wrote:
We thought of this earlier. Being a fedora ambassador when I go to promote fedora the most common problem I hear is that people are not able to get everything from repo due to bad internet connection
Right, understood. What I'm arguing is that what you get when you install the "Live DVD" should actually be identical to the comps group.
However if it's desired to fill the full 4 gigabytes (i.e. actually be DVD size), then I suggest what you do is pre-load a lot of stuff into the yum cache, but not actually install it. A bit of PackageKit work could expose to the interface "only search cached stuff" perhaps. Or maybe the UI already knows about http:// versus file://, and if you just made a repository which pointed at the mounted DVD?
Great Idea!! It would be really nice if this could be implemented successfully. Live CD + An internal Repo + A bit of php coding to choose the packages = Live DVD Genius :)
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
Right, understood. What I'm arguing is that what you get when you install the "Live DVD" should actually be identical to the comps group.
However if it's desired to fill the full 4 gigabytes (i.e. actually be DVD size), then I suggest what you do is pre-load a lot of stuff into the yum cache, but not actually install it. A bit of PackageKit work could expose to the interface "only search cached stuff" perhaps. Or maybe the UI already knows about http:// versus file://, and if you just made a repository which pointed at the mounted DVD?
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On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 10:07:46PM +0530, Aditya Patawari wrote:
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the community. For this to be a success, community support is very much required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at [1]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD .� Any kind of suggestions or pointers are most welcome.
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many languages as possible.
So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium, we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda.
Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly permits it.
Initially I was also thinking of producing a larger image to include more packages but after reading Colin's view I also thinking that instead of creating a large image with all pre-installed stuff, a large image with an internal repository can be created. It will reduce the user's need of accessing external repository without having a lot of stuff installed which a new user might find confusing and cluttered. It will leave the basic "try before use" feature of the live cd will remain as it is.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.comwrote:
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many languages as possible.
So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium, we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda.
Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly permits it.
-- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Aditya Patawari aditya@adityapatawari.com wrote:
Initially I was also thinking of producing a larger image to include more packages but after reading Colin's view I also thinking that instead of creating a large image with all pre-installed stuff, a large image with an internal repository can be created. It will reduce the user's need of accessing external repository without having a lot of stuff installed which a new user might find confusing and cluttered. It will leave the basic "try before use" feature of the live cd will remain as it is.
While I really prefer the idea of a live DVD over a normal install DVD, just filling it with extra software seems like a bit of a waste. What would be awesome (but understandably difficult) would have a grub menu showing KDE / GNOME / XFCE at boot, and use that as the live DE. It'd be a painless way try different DEs and pretty damn cool.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 08:34:43 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com wrote:
To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many languages as possible.
Note that there are already Live DVDs and at least one (Games Spin) that is limited by the 4 GiB iso size so as to be downloadable on FAT systems.
There is also a good chance that Squashfs will support lzma compression by F13, which should be a noticeable help to spins up against their iso size limits.
Note that there are already Live DVDs and at least one (Games Spin) that is limited by the 4 GiB iso size so as to be downloadable on FAT systems.
Many people who have a choice prefer USB2.0 flash memory storage over DVD because it has much lower latency (seeks are much faster) and does not degrade the drive [wear] nor the platter [scratches] during frequent or intensive use. The downside is lower capacity in readily-available units ("4GB" [or even "2GB"] instead of "4.7GB"), higher initial cost for media (typical in US: 4GB flash $9; DVD+R $0.40), different physical attachment, different BIOS capability.
There is also a good chance that Squashfs will support lzma compression by F13, which should be a noticeable help to spins up against their iso size limits.
Squashfs and lzma have been living together happily for years: http://www.squashfs-lzma.org/ Are you sure that squashfs in Fedora Project is not using lzma?
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 09:31:48 -0700, John Reiser jreiser@bitwagon.com wrote:
Squashfs and lzma have been living together happily for years: http://www.squashfs-lzma.org/ Are you sure that squashfs in Fedora Project is not using lzma?
The squashfs-tools srpm does not include the squashfs-lmza patches. It just has the 4.0 tbz file and a patch for handing compiler options in SOURCES.
I belive the problem has been Fedora rarely using kernel modules that aren't in mainline. squashfs-lzma is not mainline at this time. But both squashfs and lzma have been included in recent mainline kernels.
Lougher had said he was going to try to get the patches into 2.6.31, but didn't end up making it. I haven't seen anything yet indicating that they got into the 2.6.32 merge window, but there is still time.
It's probably too late for F12 even if it did make it in to 2.6.32.
Aditya Patawari (aditya@adityapatawari.com) said:
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the community. For this to be a success, community support is very much required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or pointers are most welcome.
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and will also increase the package installation speed.
Aditya Patawari (aditya@adityapatawari.com) said:
How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately?
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and will also increase the package installation speed.
... how is that significantly different than what we have now?
Now:
- user downloads DVD iso - user picks from arbitrary set of software - additional software can be selected from network - user installs
New: - user downloads DVD live iso - user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!) - user installs - user reboots - user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on - additional software can be selected from network
How is this better?
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI.
Colin Walters (walters@verbum.org) said:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI.
We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems inefficient.
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems inefficient.
Well, there are a few other virtues to having a larger image, namely:
* Can use web browser to find out more information about applications (and in general, use other live tools) * De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining one single path
Colin Walters (walters@verbum.org) said:
- De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining
one single path
Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live image.)
Bill
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Colin Walters (walters@verbum.org) said:
- De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining
one single path
Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live image.)
I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc.
Colin Walters walters@verbum.org writes:
I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc.
Images sound significantly more difficult to create and maintain than kickstart-files.
I would really hate to lose kickstart.
/Benny
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Benny Amorsen benny+usenet@amorsen.dk wrote:
Colin Walters walters@verbum.org writes:
I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc.
Images sound significantly more difficult to create and maintain than kickstart-files.
I would really hate to lose kickstart.
No one's suggesting replacing kickstart, actually I think we way undersell it. What I'm talking about is the mode where the image boots directly into Anaconda as a complete OS should instead be a live image with Anaconda as an application, which for the most part would be the same except you'd gain the ability to run say Firefox (or any other app; games), or do "yum install" during the install.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.comwrote:
New:
- user downloads DVD live iso
- user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!)
- user installs
- user reboots
- user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on
- additional software can be selected from network
How is this better?
I agree that it will take up more space but its a price which most of us
will be ready to pay. Bad Internet connection is more common than smaller hard disks. Also if someone is concern about the disk space so much than he'll be using live cd than dvd. Primarily Live DVD is to help those who do not have internet access or a bad connection.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Aditya Patawari aditya@adityapatawari.com wrote:
I agree that it will take up more space but its a price which most of us will be ready to pay. Bad Internet connection is more common than smaller hard disks. Also if someone is concern about the disk space so much than he'll be using live cd than dvd. Primarily Live DVD is to help those who do not have internet access or a bad connection.
They can simply use the regular DVD in that case directly.
Kushal
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Kushal Das kushaldas@gmail.com wrote:
They can simply use the regular DVD in that case directly.
Regular DVD won't give the "try before you install" feature. Also just like live CD this can be used as rescue disk too.
Aditya Patawari wrote:
Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and will also increase the package installation speed.
I don't like that idea at all. I think that if we're going to ship software, we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try it out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install it manually after their installation.
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.atwrote:
I think that if we're going to ship software, we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try it out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install it manually after their installation.
The problem with this is that giving 4 GB of pre-installed stuff will only clutter the space and might end up confusing the user. A better alternative could be to increase the size of install image to nearly 1 GB to accomodate some more packages and keep the rest of the packages in the inbuilt repo.
On Monday, 14 September 2009 at 22:41, Aditya Patawari wrote:
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.atwrote:
I think that if we're going to ship software, we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try it out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install it manually after their installation.
The problem with this is that giving 4 GB of pre-installed stuff will only clutter the space and might end up confusing the user.
What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"? It will be on the DVD anyway, either preinstalled or as RPMs. What makes you say it will confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they find less confusing or are you just guessing?
Regards, R.
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"?
By this I mean to say that if we give 4 gb pre-installed stuff then menu and workspace will be too cluttered. It will be hard to find the application you want to work upon.
It will be on the DVD anyway, either preinstalled or as RPMs.
Yes, It will be on DVD but uninstalled packages will not show on main menu.
What makes you say it will confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they find less confusing or are you just guessing?
A few months ago a local LUG here created a custom Live DVD from a mainstream Linux (wasn't fedora). The size was about 2gb. Although regular users managed but feedback from newbies wasn't so positive regarding the overall ease of use.
On Tuesday, 15 September 2009 at 17:47, Aditya Patawari wrote:
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"?
By this I mean to say that if we give 4 gb pre-installed stuff then menu and workspace will be too cluttered. It will be hard to find the application you want to work upon.
Really? Have you tried? Have you tried with some first-time user? I don't know so I'm asking.
What makes you say it will confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they find less confusing or are you just guessing?
A few months ago a local LUG here created a custom Live DVD from a mainstream Linux (wasn't fedora). The size was about 2gb. Although regular users managed but feedback from newbies wasn't so positive regarding the overall ease of use.
Was it specifically because there were too many applications installed or was it something else?
Regards, R.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
Really? Have you tried? Have you tried with some first-time user? I don't know so I'm asking.
As I said It was tried by a LUG here. Most of the users were newbies but a few had some experience. And almost all of them found the startup menu too confusing to handle.
Was it specifically because there were too many applications installed or was it something else?
According to the feedbacks we received, there were too many tools to do the same work. Also the menu had too many options which made it difficult to get the best available tool. As a newbie, instead of testing some 4-6 tools they are more interested in getting an optimized selection at first. But after a week or two, they tend to explore around and this is when the repositories are required.