Bugzilla: You can't ask Lennart Poettering because that account is disabled.

[Marius Schwarz]

Hi,

I have some bug reports for PA opening BZ and only one ever got a response.

Is it possible that this is the cause:

You can't ask /Lennart Poettering <lpoetter(a)redhat.com&gt;/ because that 
account is disabled.

I tried a needinfo request after a month long silence.

Short: PAVU shows the input meter at the app output tab since the 
upgrade from f34 to f35.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2092513

best regards,
Marius

[Sérgio Basto]

On Sat, 2022-07-02 at 00:15 +0200, Marius Schwarz wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  I have some bug reports for PA opening BZ and only one ever got a
>  response.
>  
>  Is it possible that this is the cause:
>  
>  You can't ask Lennart Poettering <lpoetter(a)redhat.com&gt; because that
>  account is disabled.
>  
>  I tried a needinfo request after a month long silence.
>  
>  Short: PAVU shows the input meter at the app output tab since the
>  upgrade from f34 to f35. 
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2092513 
Looking at the results of this query on bugzilla [1] , it seems to me
that you are not the only one. 

[1] 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?component=pavucontrol&list_id...



>  best regards,
>  Marius
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
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>  List Guidelines:
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>  https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure 
-- 
Sérgio M. B.

[Adam Williamson]

On Sat, 2022-07-02 at 00:15 +0200, Marius Schwarz wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  I have some bug reports for PA opening BZ and only one ever got a response.
>  
>  Is it possible that this is the cause:
>  
>  You can't ask /Lennart Poettering <lpoetter(a)redhat.com&gt;/ because that 
>  account is disabled.
>  
>  I tried a needinfo request after a month long silence. 
Probably not, no. Lennart hasn't maintained PA upstream or downstream
for a long time. The current downstream maintainer is Wim Taymans (I
think).

Note that Fedora doesn't use Pulseaudio by default any more since F34,
it uses pipewire:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DefaultPipeWire
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net

[Marius Schwarz]

Hi,

Am 02.07.22 um 10:37 schrieb Adam Williamson:
>  Probably not, no. Lennart hasn't maintained PA upstream or downstream
>  for a long time. The current downstream maintainer is Wim Taymans (I
>  think).
>  
Can we change the defaults for PA inside bugzilla to Wim and transfer 
the open tickets to him?
it does not make sense to have Leonard as default assignee if the 
accoutn is disabled.

Best regards,
Marius

[Tom Hughes]

On 02/07/2022 11:35, Marius Schwarz wrote:

>  Am 02.07.22 um 10:37 schrieb Adam Williamson:
> >
> > Probably not, no. Lennart hasn't maintained PA upstream or downstream
> > for a long time. The current downstream maintainer is Wim Taymans (I
> > think).
>  
>  Can we change the defaults for PA inside bugzilla to Wim and transfer 
>  the open tickets to him?
>  it does not make sense to have Leonard as default assignee if the 
>  accoutn is disabled. 
Well that is just a matter of who is the main-admin of the package
so the package owner can change it.

Strictly speaking Lennart is still the main-admin on pulseaudio
though Wim is also a committer so would have been cced on the bug
if it was a pulseaudio bug.

But it isn't a pulseaudio bug, it's a pavucontrol bug, and Wim is
not a committer there which is why he isn't cced.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes (tom(a)compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Sat, Jul 2 2022 at 12:35:44 PM +0200, Marius Schwarz 
<fedoradev(a)cloud-foo.de&gt; wrote:
>  Can we change the defaults for PA inside bugzilla to Wim and transfer
>
>  the open tickets to him?
>   it does not make sense to have Leonard as default assignee if the 
>  accoutn is disabled. 
This is an extremely common problem in Fedora: the de facto maintainer 
is not the main admin, and so the bugs are assigned to the wrong 
person. Ideally we would automatically orphan a package if the main 
admin does not have any commits to the package for a certain period of 
time, e.g. three years. To avoid being removed you could simply push an 
empty commit.

Michael

[Maxwell G]

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 10:01:18 AM CDT Michael Catanzaro wrote:

>  This is an extremely common problem in Fedora: the de facto
> maintainer
>  is not the main admin, and so the bugs are assigned to the wrong
>  person. Ideally we would automatically orphan a package if the main
>  admin does not have any commits to the package for a certain period of
>  time, e.g. three years. 
It would help if other people besides the main admin could change the Bugzilla 
assignee. After all, if the main admin is non-responsive, it's going to be 
difficult to get them to do it.

>  To avoid being removed you could simply push an
>  empty commit. 
The problem with empty commits is that they cause a release bump when 
rpmautospec is used which probably isn't desired. I guess this isn't the end 
of the world.

There are also some packages which legitimately haven't been updated upstream 
in three years. 

-- 
Thanks,

Maxwell G (@gotmax23)
Pronouns: He/Him/His

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 11:54:17AM -0500, Maxwell G via devel wrote:
>  On Saturday, July 2, 2022 10:01:18 AM CDT Michael Catanzaro wrote:
>  
>  > This is an extremely common problem in Fedora: the de facto maintainer
>  > is not the main admin, and so the bugs are assigned to the wrong
>  > person. Ideally we would automatically orphan a package if the main
>  > admin does not have any commits to the package for a certain period of
>  > time, e.g. three years.
>  
>  It would help if other people besides the main admin could change the Bugzilla 
>  assignee. After all, if the main admin is non-responsive, it's going to be 
>  difficult to get them to do it. 
I'm not sure the main admin matters as much as this thread indicates?
All the other maintainers of the package are CC'ed, in this case
belegdol.
>  
>  > To avoid being removed you could simply push an
>  > empty commit.
>  
>  The problem with empty commits is that they cause a release bump when 
>  rpmautospec is used which probably isn't desired. I guess this isn't the end 
>  of the world.
>  
>  There are also some packages which legitimately haven't been updated upstream 
>  in three years.  
This has been discussed a number of times in the past, most recently the
discussion caused a policy to remove inactive provenpackagers. 

In any case I don't think setting needinfo on someone who is not working
on your bug will help much. Most likely they would ignore the needinfo
as well or show up and tell you they don't have cycles to work on the
bug and clear it. 

More effective would likely be refiling upstream and seeing if they
could address it. all IMHO. 

kevin

[Maxwell G]

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 3:11:44 PM CDT Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 11:54:17AM -0500, Maxwell G via devel wrote:
>  > On Saturday, July 2, 2022 10:01:18 AM CDT Michael Catanzaro wrote:
>  > > This is an extremely common problem in Fedora: the de facto maintainer
>  > > is not the main admin, and so the bugs are assigned to the wrong
>  > > person. Ideally we would automatically orphan a package if the main
>  > > admin does not have any commits to the package for a certain period of
>  > > time, e.g. three years.
>  > 
>  > It would help if other people besides the main admin could change the
>  > Bugzilla assignee. After all, if the main admin is non-responsive, it's
>  > going to be difficult to get them to do it.
>  
>  I'm not sure the main admin matters as much as this thread indicates?
>  All the other maintainers of the package are CC'ed, in this case
>  belegdol. 
Maybe the main admin isn't so important, but the Bugzilla assignee is. 
Packages should be assigned to the person who is actually maintaining it. This 
makes it so bugs are more likely to be addressed. Then, the bugs will also 
show up in the "Open bugs assigned to me" link on the Bugzilla homepage[1] for 
the actual maintainer. This is more important for EPEL than Fedora proper. For 
packagers who don't care about EPEL, EPEL bugs should be assigned to the co-
maintainer (or the epel-packagers-sig) who actually maintains the EPEL 
branches; the latter should be held responsible to fix bugs and be the one who 
is NEEDINFO'd (when/if that happens), not the Fedora maintainer. It seems like 
there is at least some agreement in this area[2].

[1]: To be fair, I'm not sure how many people actually look at this. At least 
I do.
[2]: https://pagure.io/releng/issue/10866

-- 
Thanks,

Maxwell G (@gotmax23)
Pronouns: He/Him/His

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 05:31:13PM -0500, Maxwell G via devel wrote:
>  On Saturday, July 2, 2022 3:11:44 PM CDT Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>  > On Sat, Jul 02, 2022 at 11:54:17AM -0500, Maxwell G via devel wrote:
>  > > On Saturday, July 2, 2022 10:01:18 AM CDT Michael Catanzaro wrote:
>  > > > This is an extremely common problem in Fedora: the de facto maintainer
>  > > > is not the main admin, and so the bugs are assigned to the wrong
>  > > > person. Ideally we would automatically orphan a package if the main
>  > > > admin does not have any commits to the package for a certain period of
>  > > > time, e.g. three years.
>  > > 
>  > > It would help if other people besides the main admin could change the
>  > > Bugzilla assignee. After all, if the main admin is non-responsive, it's
>  > > going to be difficult to get them to do it.
>  > 
>  > I'm not sure the main admin matters as much as this thread indicates?
>  > All the other maintainers of the package are CC'ed, in this case
>  > belegdol.
>  
>  Maybe the main admin isn't so important, but the Bugzilla assignee is. 
>  Packages should be assigned to the person who is actually maintaining it. This  
Well, what if it's 2 people and they trade off? Or 3 ? or 4?
Or some people handle bugs in one area and others in another... having
only one 'assignee' is kind of limiting. ;( 

>  makes it so bugs are more likely to be addressed. Then, the bugs will
> also  
I'm not sure that it makes bugs more likely to be addressed. 
The only difference between assignee and someone on cc is what field
bugzilla shows. They both get email, no?

>  show up in the "Open bugs assigned to me" link on the
> Bugzilla homepage[1] for 
>  the actual maintainer. This is more important for EPEL than Fedora proper. For 
>  packagers who don't care about EPEL, EPEL bugs should be assigned to the co-
>  maintainer (or the epel-packagers-sig) who actually maintains the EPEL 
>  branches; the latter should be held responsible to fix bugs and be the one who 
>  is NEEDINFO'd (when/if that happens), not the Fedora maintainer. It seems like 
>  there is at least some agreement in this area[2]. 
Ah, I never use that anymore. 
I tend to use command line 'bugzilla query' or 
https://packager-dashboard.fedoraproject.org/
along with emails.

But perhaps you're right as I have a lot of bugs and could probibly do
better prioritizing.

I personally don't like NEEDINFO. We don't have any common perception of
when it should be used and it can be used by anyone. :( I only use
needinfo on things that are time sensitive and some specific information
is required from the needinfo target. Like "can you fix this in time to
do a new compose before go/no-go". Others use it for an implied 'do you
plan to fix this bug', others 'it's been a while and you didn't get to
this bug so are you going to?'. Some people even set it right away when
the bug was filed, not leaving any time for 'normal' processing.

When/if we move off bugzilla we should take all these considerations
into what we end up choosing and ways to make these workflows better.

kevin

[Kevin Kofler]

Marius Schwarz wrote:
>  Can we change the defaults for PA inside bugzilla to Wim and
> transfer
>  the open tickets to him? 
Just invoke the fast-track nonresponsive maintainer policy. The e-mail 
address reaches nowhere and Lennart has not requested reassigning the 
packages to a personal account, so he seems to be undisputedly 
nonresponsive.

        Kevin Kofler

[Kevin Kofler]

Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
>  The e-mail address reaches nowhere 
or actually, does it still work? Have you tried it? I assume that the fact 
that the Bugzilla account was disabled means he has left Red Hat and hence 
the @redhat.com e-mail address has also become invalid, but I might be 
mistaken.

        Kevin Kofler

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:52 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
>  > The e-mail address reaches nowhere
>
>  or actually, does it still work? Have you tried it? I assume that the fact
>  that the Bugzilla account was disabled means he has left Red Hat and hence
>  the @redhat.com e-mail address has also become invalid, but I might be
>  mistaken.
>  
That is what that means.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Marius Schwarz]

Am 03.07.22 um 04:02 schrieb Neal Gompa:
>  On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:52 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
>  <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> >> The e-mail address reaches nowhere
> > or actually, does it still work? Have you tried it? I assume that the fact
> > that the Bugzilla account was disabled means he has left Red Hat and hence
> > the @redhat.com e-mail address has also become invalid, but I might be
> > mistaken.
> >
>  That is what that means. 
So, someone could cross check with the account db before setting the 
assignee and skip disabled accounts? If none is available, set QA as 
assignee, because it is part of QA to see, that bugreports are handled 
(not by the qa itself ofcourse).

Back to the actual problem: can someone grab that bug and handle it pls?

best regrads,
Marius Schwarz

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 11:52:26AM +0200, Marius Schwarz wrote:
>  Am 03.07.22 um 04:02 schrieb Neal Gompa:
>  > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:52 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
>  > <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > > Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
>  > > > The e-mail address reaches nowhere
>  > > or actually, does it still work? Have you tried it? I assume that the fact
>  > > that the Bugzilla account was disabled means he has left Red Hat and hence
>  > > the @redhat.com e-mail address has also become invalid, but I might be
>  > > mistaken.
>  > > 
>  > That is what that means.
>  
>  So, someone could cross check with the account db before setting the
>  assignee and skip disabled accounts?  
I'm not sure there's a easy way to get this info, but sure. 
Filed https://pagure.io/fedora-infra/toddlers/issue/106 on it. 

>  If none is available, set QA as
>  assignee, because it is part of QA to see, that bugreports are handled (not
>  by the qa itself ofcourse). 
There isn't a 'qa' asignee, nor do they have cycles to handle every bug
report (there's a lot more package maintainers than qa group folks). 

>  Back to the actual problem: can someone grab that bug and handle it
> pls? 
Possibly belegdol can, I don't know if he's active or interested in that
package anymore. 

Failing that, file upstream?

kevin

[Julian Sikorski]

Am 03.07.22 um 19:33 schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
>  On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 11:52:26AM +0200, Marius Schwarz wrote:
> > Am 03.07.22 um 04:02 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:52 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
> >> <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> >>> Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> >>>> The e-mail address reaches nowhere
> >>> or actually, does it still work? Have you tried it? I assume that the fact
> >>> that the Bugzilla account was disabled means he has left Red Hat and hence
> >>> the @redhat.com e-mail address has also become invalid, but I might be
> >>> mistaken.
> >>>
> >> That is what that means.
> >
> > So, someone could cross check with the account db before setting the
> > assignee and skip disabled accounts?
>  
>  I'm not sure there's a easy way to get this info, but sure.
>  Filed https://pagure.io/fedora-infra/toddlers/issue/106 on it.
>  
> > If none is available, set QA as
> > assignee, because it is part of QA to see, that bugreports are handled (not
> > by the qa itself ofcourse).
>  
>  There isn't a 'qa' asignee, nor do they have cycles to handle every bug
>  report (there's a lot more package maintainers than qa group folks).
>  
> > Back to the actual problem: can someone grab that bug and handle it pls?
>  
>  Possibly belegdol can, I don't know if he's active or interested in that
>  package anymore.
>  
>  Failing that, file upstream?
>  
>  kevin 
I am active (somewhat) but I do not really care about pavucontrol that 
much these days, sorry. This does not look like a packaging bug in any 
case so filing it upstream is more likely to get it fixed. I am quite 
sure I will not be able to fix the bug myself.
Please note that pavucontrol upstream is not particularly active. 5.0 
release was 11 months ago and upstream git has not seen much beyond 
translation updates.
Wim has responded to the bug now, hopefully he can fix it.

Best regards,
Julian

[Lennart Poettering]

On Sa, 02.07.22 00:15, Marius Schwarz (fedoradev(a)cloud-foo.de) wrote:

>  Hi,
>
>  I have some bug reports for PA opening BZ and only one ever got a response.
>
>  Is it possible that this is the cause:
>
>  You can't ask /Lennart Poettering <lpoetter(a)redhat.com&gt;/ because that
>  account is disabled.
>
>  I tried a needinfo request after a month long silence.
>
>  Short: PAVU shows the input meter at the app output tab since the upgrade
>  from f34 to f35.
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2092513 
I haven't done audio stuff for a long time now.

I should probably be honest and orphan that stuff in Fedora. Anyone
wants to take this over?

That said, I have now created a personal rhbz account, and moved the
FAS stuff over. I am told that should fix the bugzilla mess. Let's
see. That said, this doesn't mean I will look into your bug reports,
audio is not my focus of work anymore, systemd is.

Lennart

--
Lennart Poettering, Berlin

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Monday, 04 July 2022 at 10:07, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>  On Sa, 02.07.22 00:15, Marius Schwarz (fedoradev(a)cloud-foo.de)
> wrote:
>  
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > I have some bug reports for PA opening BZ and only one ever got a response.
>  >
>  > Is it possible that this is the cause:
>  >
>  > You can't ask /Lennart Poettering <lpoetter(a)redhat.com&gt;/ because that
>  > account is disabled.
>  >
>  > I tried a needinfo request after a month long silence.
>  >
>  > Short: PAVU shows the input meter at the app output tab since the upgrade
>  > from f34 to f35.
>  > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2092513
>  
>  I haven't done audio stuff for a long time now.
>  
>  I should probably be honest and orphan that stuff in Fedora. Anyone
>  wants to take this over? 
Please do orphan the packages that you don't want to maintain anymore
and announce the list of orphans here. I'm sure people will pick up
stuff they care about.

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPM Fusion  http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
        -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2022-07-04 at 10:07 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>  On Sa, 02.07.22 00:15, Marius Schwarz (fedoradev(a)cloud-foo.de)
> wrote:
>  
>  > Hi,
>  > 
>  > I have some bug reports for PA opening BZ and only one ever got a response.
>  > 
>  > Is it possible that this is the cause:
>  > 
>  > You can't ask /Lennart Poettering <lpoetter(a)redhat.com&gt;/ because that
>  > account is disabled.
>  > 
>  > I tried a needinfo request after a month long silence.
>  > 
>  > Short: PAVU shows the input meter at the app output tab since the upgrade
>  > from f34 to f35.
>  > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2092513
>  
>  I haven't done audio stuff for a long time now.
>  
>  I should probably be honest and orphan that stuff in Fedora. Anyone
>  wants to take this over? 
Wim and/or Rex Dieter would be the obvious candidates, I guess? They've
done all the non-automated changes to the package recently.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net

[Luna Jernberg]

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-M...
https://linuxactionnews.com/248

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 10:08 AM Lennart Poettering <mzerqung(a)0pointer.de&gt;
wrote:

>  On Sa, 02.07.22 00:15, Marius Schwarz (fedoradev(a)cloud-foo.de)
> wrote:
>
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > I have some bug reports for PA opening BZ and only one ever got a
>  response.
>  >
>  > Is it possible that this is the cause:
>  >
>  > You can't ask /Lennart Poettering <lpoetter(a)redhat.com&gt;/ because that
>  > account is disabled.
>  >
>  > I tried a needinfo request after a month long silence.
>  >
>  > Short: PAVU shows the input meter at the app output tab since the upgrade
>  > from f34 to f35.
>  > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2092513
>
>  I haven't done audio stuff for a long time now.
>
>  I should probably be honest and orphan that stuff in Fedora. Anyone
>  wants to take this over?
>
>  That said, I have now created a personal rhbz account, and moved the
>  FAS stuff over. I am told that should fix the bugzilla mess. Let's
>  see. That said, this doesn't mean I will look into your bug reports,
>  audio is not my focus of work anymore, systemd is.
>
>  Lennart
>
>  --
>  Lennart Poettering, Berlin
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
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>

[Kevin Kofler]

Luna Jernberg wrote:
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-M...
>  https://linuxactionnews.com/248 
Time to remove systemd from the distribution?

        Kevin Kofler

[Peter Robinson]

On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 2:05 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Luna Jernberg wrote:
>  > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-M...
>  > https://linuxactionnews.com/248
>
>  Time to remove systemd from the distribution? 
Why? There's other maintainers, and he's not been the lead maintainer
in Fedora for some time.

[Kevin Kofler]

Peter Robinson wrote:
>  Why? There's other maintainers, and he's not been the lead
> maintainer
>  in Fedora for some time. 
But upstream is now under a hostile corporation's control? Can we trust the 
most privileged userspace program when it is effectively controlled by a 
hostile corporation?

        Kevin Kofler

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 10:09 AM Kevin Kofler via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Peter Robinson wrote:
>  > Why? There's other maintainers, and he's not been the lead maintainer
>  > in Fedora for some time.
>
>  But upstream is now under a hostile corporation's control? Can we trust the
>  most privileged userspace program when it is effectively controlled by a
>  hostile corporation?
>  
You missed the boat there. The systemd project has several upstream
maintainers, and Lennart isn't even the first one that works at
Microsoft. I know of at least one other that is in project leadership
there that has been working at Microsoft for a while.

The world didn't end, so *shrugs*



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 04:08:55PM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
>  But upstream is now under a hostile corporation's control? Can we
> trust the 
>  most privileged userspace program when it is effectively controlled by a 
>  hostile corporation? 
Let's please not do this. Upstream is an LGPL project (without a CLA). It is
not a black box. And Microsoft is not the 1990s Microsoft. They know that
they need to do this differently and I know there are people (actual, real,
humans!) who care about open source and making Linux better for everyone.
And now that includes Lennart.

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Vitaly Zaitsev]

On 08/07/2022 16:14, Matthew Miller wrote:
>  And Microsoft is not the 1990s Microsoft. They know that
>  they need to do this differently and I know there are people (actual, real,
>  humans!) who care about open source and making Linux better for everyone.
>  And now that includes Lennart. 
No. Microsoft will always be hostile to Open Source, no matter what they 
say in public.

For example, last week they decided to kill all OSS applications from 
the Microsoft Store:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/vtxr9r/software_freedom_conservan...

-- 
Sincerely,
   Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly(a)easycoding.org)

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2022-07-08 at 17:20 +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
>  On 08/07/2022 16:14, Matthew Miller wrote:
>  > And Microsoft is not the 1990s Microsoft. They know that
>  > they need to do this differently and I know there are people (actual, real,
>  > humans!) who care about open source and making Linux better for everyone.
>  > And now that includes Lennart.
>  
>  No. Microsoft will always be hostile to Open Source, no matter what they 
>  say in public.
>  
>  For example, last week they decided to kill all OSS applications from 
>  the Microsoft Store:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/vtxr9r/software_freedom_conservan...
That's not what that story says. It says you can't charge for them.

Additionally, Microsoft says[1] the intent is not to stop F/OSS
developers from charging for their own software, but to stop others
passing off for a profit. I agree that the current proposed wording is
at least ambiguous, but it would seem reasonable to see if Microsoft
updates it as they say they will.

[1]: https://twitter.com/gisardo/status/1544741955145502724
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net

[Vitaly Zaitsev]

On 08/07/2022 17:48, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  That's not what that story says. It says you can't charge for
> them.
>  
>  Additionally, Microsoft says[1] the intent is not to stop F/OSS
>  developers from charging for their own software, but to stop others
>  passing off for a profit. I agree that the current proposed wording is
>  at least ambiguous, but it would seem reasonable to see if Microsoft
>  updates it as they say they will. 
They dropped Krita. Check out Krita's developer comment[1].

A lot of OSS application uses Microsoft Store for donations. Now they 
will be forced to become free or disappear from the Store. The GPL 
doesn't prohibit selling if you provide the source code to customers.

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/vtxr9r/comment/ifb7hgk/

-- 
Sincerely,
   Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly(a)easycoding.org)

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2022-07-08 at 17:59 +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
>  On 08/07/2022 17:48, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  > That's not what that story says. It says you can't charge for them.
>  > 
>  > Additionally, Microsoft says[1] the intent is not to stop F/OSS
>  > developers from charging for their own software, but to stop others
>  > passing off for a profit. I agree that the current proposed wording is
>  > at least ambiguous, but it would seem reasonable to see if Microsoft
>  > updates it as they say they will.
>  
>  They dropped Krita. Check out Krita's developer comment[1]. 
Um. That comment does not say that "they dropped Krita".
>  
>  A lot of OSS application uses Microsoft Store for donations. 
A donation is voluntary, and would not be affected by the policy. If
you mean lots of OSS applications put paid versions on store fronts to
try and get some income, sure, this is true, but that is not at all
what you originally claimed.

>   Now they 
>  will be forced to become free or disappear from the Store. 
You're ignoring the part about Microsoft saying that's not the intent
of the policy and that they would change it, but if that didn't happen,
potentially yes. But this is still not what you claimed. You claimed -
direct quote - "last week they decided to kill all OSS applications
from the Microsoft Store".

>   The GPL 
>  doesn't prohibit selling if you provide the source code to customers. 
Indeed it doesn't. How is that relevant?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net

[Kevin Kofler]

Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote:
>  For example, last week they decided to kill all OSS applications
> from
>  the Microsoft Store:
>  
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/vtxr9r/software_freedom_conservan...

Actually, what they did there actually makes sense to me. The rule prohibits 
you from charging for FOSS that is available at no cost elsewhere. So you 
cannot abuse the Microsoft Store monopoly to charge for otherwise free-as-
in-beer software. Now, this would not be an issue if there were not such a 
monopoly store in the first place, but in the current situation, it is 
actually a reasonable policy, and it would make sense for, e.g., Apple to 
enforce the same policy on their app store (but since it would also mean 
them losing out on their cut of the sales, I doubt they will do so any time 
soon).

Would you want upstreams to start charging Fedora users, and only Fedora 
users, for their software? Say, through some paid Flatpak distribution 
channel that gets added to "third-party software" the same way Flathub is 
being added now, and through not making RPMs or even Flathub Flatpaks 
available anymore? I guess not.

        Kevin Kofler

[Ben Cotton]

Discussion of Microsoft Store policies is off-topic for this list. The
Water Cooler category[1] on Fedora Discussion would be a good place to
have this conversation.

[1] https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/c/fun/8

-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2022-07-08 at 12:40 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  Discussion of Microsoft Store policies is off-topic for this list.
> The
>  Water Cooler category[1] on Fedora Discussion would be a good place to
>  have this conversation. 
Sorry, I sent my last reply before seeing this one.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net

[Daniel P. Berrangé]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 04:08:55PM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
>  Peter Robinson wrote:
>  > Why? There's other maintainers, and he's not been the lead maintainer
>  > in Fedora for some time.
>  
>  But upstream is now under a hostile corporation's control? Can we trust the 
>  most privileged userspace program when it is effectively controlled by a 
>  hostile corporation? 
Can you please stop with the baseless accusations and FUD.

With regards,
Daniel
-- 
|: https://berrange.com      -o-    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
|: https://libvirt.org         -o-            https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
|: https://entangle-photo.org    -o-    https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|

[Paul Wouters]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2022, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

>  But upstream is now under a hostile corporation's control? Can we
> trust the
>  most privileged userspace program when it is effectively controlled by a
>  hostile corporation? 
Yes we can, by reading and evaluating the code like we always do. If it
starts to deviate from our needs and requirements, we can change things.

If Fedora was too depending on one person, this change would be good as
in that case we should have diversified these things already before and
now we would be forced to do so if that is problem.

Lennart might not be the easiest person to work with, and I have had
my personal disagreements with him, but he has never been a malicious
person and I don't expect him to suddenly become one.

I wish him luck on his new adventures.

Paul

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; said:
>  Luna Jernberg wrote:
>  > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-M...
>  > https://linuxactionnews.com/248
>  
>  Time to remove systemd from the distribution? 
What part of Free and Open says "judge people based on their employer"?
That's a rude personal attack.
-- 
Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net&gt;

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 9:34 AM Chris Adams <linux(a)cmadams.net&gt; wrote:
>  Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; said:
>  > Luna Jernberg wrote:
>  > >
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-M...
>  > > https://linuxactionnews.com/248
>  >
>  > Time to remove systemd from the distribution?
>
>  What part of Free and Open says "judge people based on their employer"?
>  That's a rude personal attack. 
Microsoft has people working on a number of core Linux projects ever
since they started making their own Linux distribution. The likely
reality is that Microsoft made a compelling offer to employ him and
Red Hat just didn't want to counter to keep him. It happens.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Kevin Kofler]

Neal Gompa wrote:
>  Microsoft has people working on a number of core Linux projects ever
>  since they started making their own Linux distribution. 
It is fun how the old
https://web.archive.org/web/20220312030903/http://www.mslinux.org/
joke has suddenly become reality.

I hope we are not getting Embraced&Extended&Extinguished…

        Kevin Kofler