Modularity Improvements Objective

[Daniel Mach]

Hello everyone,
There's a Modularity Improvements Objective draft available[1].

The Objective summarizes the work that is in progress already as well as 
highlights our plans for Fedora 34.

We're planning to fix the current modularity in Fedora 33 and 34.
We may look into alternatives or bigger design changes in Fedora 35 and 
later.

You can find more details in the Objective document[1].

- Daniel

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Modularity_Improvements_2020

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 7:44 AM Daniel Mach  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> There's a Modularity Improvements Objective draft available[1].
>
> The Objective summarizes the work that is in progress already as well as
> highlights our plans for Fedora 34.
>
> We're planning to fix the current modularity in Fedora 33 and 34.
> We may look into alternatives or bigger design changes in Fedora 35 and
> later.
>
> You can find more details in the Objective document[1].
> Daniel
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Modularity_Improvements_2020

This looks pretty good. I'm excited to see these improvements as they come!

[Petr Pisar]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 01:44:07PM +0200, Daniel Mach wrote:
> There's a Modularity Improvements Objective draft available[1].
>
> The Objective summarizes the work that is in progress already as well as
> highlights our plans for Fedora 34.
>
> We're planning to fix the current modularity in Fedora 33 and 34.
> We may look into alternatives or bigger design changes in Fedora 35 and
> later.
>
> You can find more details in the Objective document[1].
> Daniel
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Modularity_Improvements_2020

I hope that you find resources to properly maintain MBS. Currently (last two
weeks) it cannot build the modules
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/9066.

-- Petr

[Vít Ondruch]

Dne 24. 07. 20 v 14:25 Petr Pisar napsal(a):
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 01:44:07PM +0200, Daniel Mach wrote:
> > There's a Modularity Improvements Objective draft available[1].
> >
> > The Objective summarizes the work that is in progress already as well as
> > highlights our plans for Fedora 34.
> >
> > We're planning to fix the current modularity in Fedora 33 and 34.
> > We may look into alternatives or bigger design changes in Fedora 35 and
> > later.
> >
> > You can find more details in the Objective document[1].
> > Daniel
> >
> > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Modularity_Improvements_2020
>
> I hope that you find resources to properly maintain MBS.

+1

This document seems to focus on "DNF" side of thing, while completely
missing the infrastructure side. E.g. MBS, dist-git, mass rebuilds, etc.

Vít
> Currently (last two
> weeks) it cannot build the modules
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/9066.
>
> -- Petr
>
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[Mat Booth]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 13:26, Petr Pisar  wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 01:44:07PM +0200, Daniel Mach wrote:
> > There's a Modularity Improvements Objective draft available[1].
> >
> > The Objective summarizes the work that is in progress already as well as
> > highlights our plans for Fedora 34.
> >
> > We're planning to fix the current modularity in Fedora 33 and 34.
> > We may look into alternatives or bigger design changes in Fedora 35 and
> > later.
> >
> > You can find more details in the Objective document[1].
> > Daniel
> >
> > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Modularity_Improvements_2020
>
> I hope that you find resources to properly maintain MBS. Currently (last two
> weeks) it cannot build the modules
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/9066.
>
> -- Petr

I opened this ticket more than two months ago. :-(

What's *worse* is that before I filed that infra ticket I filed this
ticket [1] at the MBS upstream project and that got *absolutely* no
response. Complete silence. In fact *no* ticket reported there haven't
seen any activity in months. Not exactly confidence inspiring for the
future of the project.

[1] https://pagure.io/fm-orchestrator/issue/1640

I've tried *so* hard to get on board with modularity but I think I'm
done with modules now in Fedora.

In the early days the people who maintained MBS were super helpful and
worked hard to fix the bugs I found in it, but now it feels like those
days are gone and still it's just hurdle after hurdle. All I want is
an easy life, and I thought modules were that, but it's impossible to
get anything done in a timely manner, builds have required so much
babysitting, the MBS requiring (already scarce) releng resources to
intervene periodically.... Honestly, it's been just exhausting and
demoralising how many man-hours have gone to waste. So I've pulled all
my packages back into mainline Fedora since that seems to be the path
of least resistance even though I will once again have to maintain
multiple branches of my whole stack of packages.

Interesting experiment, maybe, but if there's going to be no
commitment to pay the on-going cost of infra maintenance and fix the
design-flaws or whatever serious problem is currently holding back
MBS, then I have to end the experiment for my own sanity at least.

mbooth

[Mat Booth]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 16:10, Mat Booth  wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 13:26, Petr Pisar  wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 01:44:07PM +0200, Daniel Mach wrote:
> > > There's a Modularity Improvements Objective draft available[1].
> > >
> > > The Objective summarizes the work that is in progress already as well as
> > > highlights our plans for Fedora 34.
> > >
> > > We're planning to fix the current modularity in Fedora 33 and 34.
> > > We may look into alternatives or bigger design changes in Fedora 35 and
> > > later.
> > >
> > > You can find more details in the Objective document[1].
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Modularity_Improvements_2020
> >
> > I hope that you find resources to properly maintain MBS. Currently (last two
> > weeks) it cannot build the modules
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/9066.
> >
> > -- Petr
>
> I opened this ticket more than two months ago. :-(

Err, more than one month ago sorry. Apologies if that mischaracterised
the situation.

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:10 AM Mat Booth  wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 13:26, Petr Pisar  wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 01:44:07PM +0200, Daniel Mach wrote:
> > > There's a Modularity Improvements Objective draft available[1].
> > >
> > > The Objective summarizes the work that is in progress already as well as
> > > highlights our plans for Fedora 34.
> > >
> > > We're planning to fix the current modularity in Fedora 33 and 34.
> > > We may look into alternatives or bigger design changes in Fedora 35 and
> > > later.
> > >
> > > You can find more details in the Objective document[1].
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Modularity_Improvements_2020
> >
> > I hope that you find resources to properly maintain MBS. Currently (last two
> > weeks) it cannot build the modules
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/9066.
> >
> > -- Petr
>
> I opened this ticket more than two months ago. :-(
>
> What's *worse* is that before I filed that infra ticket I filed this
> ticket [1] at the MBS upstream project and that got *absolutely* no
> response. Complete silence. In fact *no* ticket reported there haven't
> seen any activity in months. Not exactly confidence inspiring for the
> future of the project.
>
> [1] https://pagure.io/fm-orchestrator/issue/1640
>
> I've tried *so* hard to get on board with modularity but I think I'm
> done with modules now in Fedora.
>
> In the early days the people who maintained MBS were super helpful and
> worked hard to fix the bugs I found in it, but now it feels like those
> days are gone and still it's just hurdle after hurdle. All I want is
> an easy life, and I thought modules were that, but it's impossible to
> get anything done in a timely manner, builds have required so much
> babysitting, the MBS requiring (already scarce) releng resources to
> intervene periodically.... Honestly, it's been just exhausting and
> demoralising how many man-hours have gone to waste. So I've pulled all
> my packages back into mainline Fedora since that seems to be the path
> of least resistance even though I will once again have to maintain
> multiple branches of my whole stack of packages.
>
> Interesting experiment, maybe, but if there's going to be no
> commitment to pay the on-going cost of infra maintenance and fix the
> design-flaws or whatever serious problem is currently holding back
> MBS, then I have to end the experiment for my own sanity at least.

Unfortunately, MBS is maintained by a different team: the team that
maintains Koji. I am unsure about what they're planning to do, but I
hope they're going to do *something*.

[Ben Cotton]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:17 AM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> Unfortunately, MBS is maintained by a different team: the team that
> maintains Koji. I am unsure about what they're planning to do, but I
> hope they're going to do *something*.

With my Council hat on, I'd like to see that team represented in the
Objective if their involvement is going to be critical to the success
of Modularity.

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:16:16AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> Unfortunately, MBS is maintained by a different team: the team that
> maintains Koji. I am unsure about what they're planning to do, but I
> hope they're going to do *something*.

To add history here, MBS was written by and maintained by a different
team until early this year, when it was handed off to the koji team.

Last I heard they were still trying to get up to speed on the codebase,
etc. It's not easy to take a codebase someone else has written and
maintained and take it over. ;(

I'm of course not speaking for them, and hopefully they will chime in
here with more info...

kevin