11:02 a.m.
I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a burn://
folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
want to see how everyone else feels.
--
John (J5) Palmieri
Associate Software Engineer
Desktop Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Blog: http://martianrock.com
11:31 a.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 12:02 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a
burn://
folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
want to see how everyone else feels.
--
John (J5) Palmieri
Associate Software Engineer
Desktop Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Blog: http://martianrock.com
I find the pop-up somewhat annoying since I use k3b. I vote for turning
it off.
12:48 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 12:31 -0400, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote:
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 12:02 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
> I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a burn://
> folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
> up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
> want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
> in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
> bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
> you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
> should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
> want to see how everyone else feels.
>
> --
> John (J5) Palmieri
> Associate Software Engineer
> Desktop Group
> Red Hat, Inc.
> Blog: http://martianrock.com
>
I find the pop-up somewhat annoying since I use k3b. I vote for turning
it off.
You have the ability to turn it off. I don't think this is a compelling
reason to turn it off by default.
--
John (J5) Palmieri
Associate Software Engineer
Desktop Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Blog: http://martianrock.com
11:36 a.m.
A problem I noticed: I've set gnome-volume-manager to open k3b instead
of burn://
When burning 1st CD it went ok. When inserting the 2nd CD, k3b is opened
again although it was already open. Could it check first if the
application specified by user is already running?
Maybe this solves multiple burn:// folders too.
I don't know how to check in a reliable way if the application is
already running. ps aux|grep username|grep <application> works usually,
but it's ugly. It won't work for burn://
--
Marius Andreiana
Galuna - Solutii Linux in Romania
http://www.galuna.ro
12:05 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 19:36 +0300, Marius Andreiana wrote:
A problem I noticed: I've set gnome-volume-manager to open k3b
instead
of burn://
When burning 1st CD it went ok. When inserting the 2nd CD, k3b is opened
again although it was already open. Could it check first if the
application specified by user is already running?
Not really. K3B needs to be corrected to not open multiple copies of
itself, not g-v-m.
Maybe this solves multiple burn:// folders too.
I imagine it would be possible for Nautilus to say, "oh, burn:// is
already open, let's just focus that window." Of course, you then have
one of the primary features of spatial file management...
I don't particularly think Nautilus has any business burning CDs, but
that's not my call, and this is the wrong list to discuss it anyways.
I don't know how to check in a reliable way if the application
is
already running. ps aux|grep username|grep <application> works usually,
but it's ugly. It won't work for burn://
The proper solution is for the application itself to use that desktop
frameworks' existing solution to the problem.
Anything else is not really guaranteed to work, at least not portably.
The shell line you gave can easily break in dozens of different
scenarios, and the other method I can think of would be OS-specific.
(Scanning the running processes to see which binary it is running.)
--
Sean Middleditch <elanthis(a)awesomeplay.com>
AwesomePlay Productions, Inc.
12:47 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 19:36 +0300, Marius Andreiana wrote:
A problem I noticed: I've set gnome-volume-manager to open k3b
instead
of burn://
When burning 1st CD it went ok. When inserting the 2nd CD, k3b is opened
again although it was already open. Could it check first if the
application specified by user is already running?
Maybe this solves multiple burn:// folders too.
I don't know how to check in a reliable way if the application is
already running. ps aux|grep username|grep <application> works usually,
but it's ugly. It won't work for burn://
There is locking code in hal now that an app can use to give advisory
locks on a cd device. g-v-m respects this. k3b needs to be updated to
set and unset these locks.
--
John (J5) Palmieri
Associate Software Engineer
Desktop Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Blog: http://martianrock.com
12:59 a.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 13:47 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
There is locking code in hal now that an app can use to give
advisory
locks on a cd device. g-v-m respects this. k3b needs to be updated to
set and unset these locks.
great, I've posted this to k3b:
http://k3b.plainblack.com/index.pl/feedback?
func=view&wid=29&forumId=1000&forumOp=viewThread&forumPostId=UUhD7_5QpkCYvlgdjmXiPg#UUhD7_5QpkCYvlgdjmXiPg
--
Marius Andreiana
Galuna - Solutii Linux in Romania
http://www.galuna.ro
12:51 p.m.
That is a problem i have noticed with several programs. They should
really check if they are already running.
God know how many times i have started a (borked) extra-evolution
because i forgot i had another one open at another desktop - hitting the
evo icon should really just bring foreward the evo already on-line
tor, 07.10.2004 kl. 18.36 skrev Marius Andreiana:
A problem I noticed: I've set gnome-volume-manager to open k3b
instead
of burn://
When burning 1st CD it went ok. When inserting the 2nd CD, k3b is opened
again although it was already open. Could it check first if the
application specified by user is already running?
Maybe this solves multiple burn:// folders too.
I don't know how to check in a reliable way if the application is
already running. ps aux|grep username|grep <application> works usually,
but it's ugly. It won't work for burn://
--
Marius Andreiana
Galuna - Solutii Linux in Romania
http://www.galuna.ro
11:37 a.m.
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:02:57 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri <johnp(a)redhat.com> wrote:
I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a
burn://
folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
want to see how everyone else feels.
1) what toggle in the volume management preference gui turns the burn
window appearing on and off?
2) Considering that browser mode is NOT the default mode of operation,
i find it difficult to justify turning off a default setting because
its not ideal for browser mode. So any argument as to why it should or
shouldn't be on by default in context of a default desktop experience
holds large buckets more water than any discussion primarily backed by
whats happening in non-default nautilus browser mode. What matters is
if all the defaults together make for the best experience. If someone
sets nautilus to browser mode and finds the volume management defaults
to no longer be ideal, they are free to reconfigure volume management
settings as well to create the customized experience they like best.
3)I say if it makes sense to open up a window for other types of media
by default then it should make sense for blank media as well. I
personally hate having any window open by default for any media...but
I'm not going to suggest my personal preference should be the default.
I'm not overly burdened by toggling the volume management preferences
to suit my tastes. But I think consistency on handling all media in a
similar way is important. So if by default if data cds are going to
open up a window, i think blank cds should as well. To underscore that
fact, I think people unfamiliar with nautilus's cd burning features
are going to benefit by seeing a burn window open up for them.
-jef
12:45 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 12:37 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:02:57 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri
<johnp(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a burn://
> folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
> up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
> want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
> in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
> bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
> you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
> should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
> want to see how everyone else feels.
1) what toggle in the volume management preference gui turns the burn
window appearing on and off?
Preference/Removable Storage/"Preform action on blank CDs when
inserted"
2) Considering that browser mode is NOT the default mode of
operation,
i find it difficult to justify turning off a default setting because
its not ideal for browser mode. So any argument as to why it should or
shouldn't be on by default in context of a default desktop experience
holds large buckets more water than any discussion primarily backed by
whats happening in non-default nautilus browser mode. What matters is
if all the defaults together make for the best experience. If someone
sets nautilus to browser mode and finds the volume management defaults
to no longer be ideal, they are free to reconfigure volume management
settings as well to create the customized experience they like best.
It also has to do with is it really all that more usable popping up the
burn window when they can just double click the icon like any other app.
Another problem I could see is a user pops in a CD to burn from
RhythmBox but uses burn:// to burn occasionally it might get annoying
having the window pop up and they have to close it.
3)I say if it makes sense to open up a window for other types of
media
by default then it should make sense for blank media as well. I
personally hate having any window open by default for any media...but
I'm not going to suggest my personal preference should be the default.
I'm not overly burdened by toggling the volume management preferences
to suit my tastes. But I think consistency on handling all media in a
similar way is important. So if by default if data cds are going to
open up a window, i think blank cds should as well. To underscore that
fact, I think people unfamiliar with nautilus's cd burning features
are going to benefit by seeing a burn window open up for them.
Ok, good points.
--
John (J5) Palmieri
Associate Software Engineer
Desktop Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Blog: http://martianrock.com
11:38 a.m.
Hi.
"John (J5) Palmieri" <johnp(a)redhat.com> wrote:
bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop
which
you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
want to see how everyone else feels.
Is that the same option that can be disabled via Preferences/Removable
Storage?
--
If you can keep your head when all about you men are losing theirs...
then perhaps you haven't grasped the full severity of the situation.
12:39 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 18:38 +0200, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
Hi.
"John (J5) Palmieri" <johnp(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
> you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
> should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
> want to see how everyone else feels.
Is that the same option that can be disabled via Preferences/Removable
Storage?
Yes.
--
If you can keep your head when all about you men are losing theirs...
then perhaps you haven't grasped the full severity of the situation.
--
John (J5) Palmieri
Associate Software Engineer
Desktop Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Blog: http://martianrock.com
2:23 a.m.
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 12:02 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a
burn://
folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
want to see how everyone else feels.
I think we should not open it. Not even in spatial mode. I'm off the
opinion that most "automatically open window that can disturb the users
workflow" behaviour is wrong, as it often interfers with peoples use of
the system.
What i'm saying is: putting an icon on the desktop or in the computer
location when you insert some media is fine, this actually helps the
user to easier access the media, and the visible change makes it obvious
the computer actually recognized that you did something. Poping up a
window over the current application can break the users current action,
plus it doesn't educate him on the interaction model we're trying to
plant in the users mind (that the cd icon on the desktop represents the
media).
Currently we don't pop up a filemanager window when you insert any other
kind of media, why should blank cds be different?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc
alexl(a)redhat.com alla(a)lysator.liu.se
He's an immortal alcoholic sorceror with nothing left to lose. She's a
strong-willed hip-hop femme fatale from a family of eight older brothers. They
fight crime!
4 a.m.
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Alexander Larsson wrote:
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 12:02 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
> I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a burn://
> folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
> up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
> want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
> in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
> bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
> you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
> should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
> want to see how everyone else feels.
I think we should not open it. Not even in spatial mode. I'm off the
opinion that most "automatically open window that can disturb the users
workflow" behaviour is wrong, as it often interfers with peoples use of
the system.
Amen.
What i'm saying is: putting an icon on the desktop or in the computer
location when you insert some media is fine, this actually helps the
user to easier access the media, and the visible change makes it obvious
the computer actually recognized that you did something. Poping up a
window over the current application can break the users current action,
plus it doesn't educate him on the interaction model we're trying to
plant in the users mind (that the cd icon on the desktop represents the
media).
I personally don't particularly like adding stuff to desktop either
(because I never get to see it there, there's hardly ever empty space on
my desktop) but it's anyway infinitely better than annoying windows
popping up at all the wrong moments.
- Panu -
5:03 a.m.
What about poping up the preference dialog at the first time s.o. inserts a blank CD.
The user then can specify the wanted behaviour for the next times...
5:13 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 12:03:56PM +0200, Harald Hoyer wrote:
What about poping up the preference dialog at the first time s.o.
inserts a blank CD.
The user then can specify the wanted behaviour for the next times...
XP does this (at other ocasions, too), and I think it would be useful.
10:07 a.m.
On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 09:23 +0200, Alexander Larsson wrote:
On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 12:02 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
> I wanted to get the Fedora communities opinion on popping up a burn://
> folder when a blank CD is inserted into the drive. Right now we pop it
> up which makes sense because if you pop in a blank CD most likely you
> want to burn to it. Problems come in when a user is using browser mode
> in Nautilus. If you pop the CD in and out a couple of times you get a
> bunch of burn:// folders. Since you get a CD icon on the desktop which
> you can double click to open up the burn:// folder I am wondering if I
> should turn this off by default. I am of no opinion either way so I
> want to see how everyone else feels.
I think we should not open it. Not even in spatial mode. I'm off the
opinion that most "automatically open window that can disturb the users
workflow" behaviour is wrong, as it often interfers with peoples use of
the system.
What i'm saying is: putting an icon on the desktop or in the computer
location when you insert some media is fine, this actually helps the
user to easier access the media, and the visible change makes it obvious
the computer actually recognized that you did something. Poping up a
window over the current application can break the users current action,
plus it doesn't educate him on the interaction model we're trying to
plant in the users mind (that the cd icon on the desktop represents the
media).
Except for the fact that the user has already broken their current
action by plugging something in.
Currently we don't pop up a filemanager window when you insert
any other
kind of media, why should blank cds be different?
Yes we do. This should be on by default.
--
John (J5) Palmieri
Associate Software Engineer
Desktop Group
Red Hat, Inc.
Blog: http://martianrock.com
12:50 p.m.
On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 11:07 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
> Currently we don't pop up a filemanager window when you
insert any other
> kind of media, why should blank cds be different?
Yes we do.
Not by default, no.
Corner case: consider plugging in a USB2 harddisk enclosure with three
partitions on - do we really want three new Nautilus windows popping up
by default? Personally, I'm not convinced we want that.
This should be on by default.
For blank optical discs, yes (for the reasons stated other places in
this thread). For other media, I'm not so sure.
David
3:17 p.m.
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:50:45 -0400, David Zeuthen <david(a)fubar.dk> wrote:
Corner case: consider plugging in a USB2 harddisk enclosure with
three
partitions on - do we really want three new Nautilus windows popping up
by default? Personally, I'm not convinced we want that.
What about storage devices with exactly one partition?
What about data cds?
Is there room for the multiple partition case for a choice dialog?
What do you think of the photo importing dialog we have now as an
example of a choice dialog? When i plugin a compact flash card in my
reader that has a dcim directory
the photo importer script notices and asks if i want to open the photo
importer or if I want to browse the card's filesystem. Is this dialog
approach acceptable for the multiple partitioned drive case?
-jef
4:05 p.m.
On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 16:17 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:50:45 -0400, David Zeuthen
<david(a)fubar.dk> wrote:
> Corner case: consider plugging in a USB2 harddisk enclosure with three
> partitions on - do we really want three new Nautilus windows popping up
> by default? Personally, I'm not convinced we want that.
What about storage devices with exactly one partition?
What about data cds?
Or even Photo CD's, see http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/cd-
rom/photocd.htm for some background (question: do we have applications
to generate Photo CD's?)
Is there room for the multiple partition case for a choice dialog?
What do you think of the photo importing dialog we have now as an
example of a choice dialog? When i plugin a compact flash card in my
reader that has a dcim directory
the photo importer script notices and asks if i want to open the photo
importer or if I want to browse the card's filesystem. Is this dialog
approach acceptable for the multiple partitioned drive case?
I think these are good questions to consider for FC4 (and perhaps even
doing it upstream in gnome-volume-manager for GNOME 2.10), but right now
it's probably not a too good idea change the defaults too much for FC3
considering that test3 is out soon and after that it's the final. That's
my opinion anyway.
Cheers,
David
5:18 p.m.
Jeff Spaleta a écrit :
When i plugin a compact flash card in my
reader that has a dcim directory
the photo importer script notices and asks if i want to open the photo
importer or if I want to browse the card's filesystem. Is this dialog
approach acceptable for the multiple partitioned drive case?
Note that this is a copy of the windows approach, which assumes
locating the photo importer or the file browser is more annoying than
answering the same nonsensical question all year round (and given the
extremes to which this can lead on a recent windows system where an
event can be claimed by a dozen applications at least, it may very
well end the way of the dodo there soon).
The Fedora situation is very different - great care was put into
cleaning up the menus, choosing natural names etc. While this is very
much a work in progress we are very far from the windows mess and the
workarounds they had to implement because of it (simplified menu that
hides the real one, suggestion popups, etc).
Lets try to avoid proudly cloning clippy like the SO5 people did, ok ?
Cheers,
--
Nicolas Mailhot
10:43 a.m.
On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 09:23 +0200, Alexander Larsson wrote:
I think we should not open it. Not even in spatial mode. I'm off
the
opinion that most "automatically open window that can disturb the users
workflow" behaviour is wrong, as it often interfers with peoples use of
the system.
What i'm saying is: putting an icon on the desktop or in the computer
location when you insert some media is fine, this actually helps the
user to easier access the media, and the visible change makes it obvious
the computer actually recognized that you did something. Poping up a
window over the current application can break the users current action,
plus it doesn't educate him on the interaction model we're trying to
plant in the users mind (that the cd icon on the desktop represents the
media).
Currently we don't pop up a filemanager window when you insert any other
kind of media, why should blank cds be different?
A filemanager no, but when you insert a Camera we ask if you want to
import the photos (this isn't the best thing to do, but close). The
problem with only putting an icon on the desktop is that you're assuming
that when I insert new media I've cleaned my screen of applications and
can clearly see the desktop. This isn't really an assumption we can
make. At the same time, a cluttered desktop could make it harder for
people to see new items appear on it, we can't assume people have clean
desktops and a new icon will be immediately visible.
Popping up the filemanager, especially since burn:// is just a blank
window isn't the best thing to do either. What we should work on is
improving our CD burning interface so it's not so bare.
If we don't popup something at all people are like to assume we didn't
realize that you inserted new media. The persons work flow behavior on
the desktop has already been interrupted by inserting a media device,
giving them the option to begin using the media is probably the best
next step.
Ultimately I think using some kind of bubble up notification [1] might
be the best thing in the short term. What I'd really like to work on is
to determine a way to figure out the work flow. What I mean is, if you
have Rhythmbox open and you insert a blank CD, we currently assume that
you're going to want burn:// because that's our default CD burning
system. However, if Rhythmbox has CD burning facilities and you have
the application open it'd be better to assume (or at least ask) that
you're going to make an audio CD and not a data CD. Yea, there's lots
of edge cases either way, but I think this work flow idea is the best
method to work towards.
Cheers,
~ Bryan
[1] One of those things from the systray area that doesn't steal focus
and allows you to open up a CD burning app.
11:29 a.m.
Le vendredi 08 octobre 2004 à 11:43 -0400, Bryan Clark a écrit :
If we don't popup something at all people are like to assume we
didn't
realize that you inserted new media.
And this is something that needs to be validated. People might assume
there is a popup because we buried them under popups in similar
circumstances in the past (or if we didn't do it some other system did).
Virgin users might very well adapt better to a less intrusive system,
and virgin users are the only ones that count in the long run.
Popup blockers and tabs certainly change the browser experience and some
people's habits. They are a huge success nevertheless.
The persons work flow behavior on
the desktop has already been interrupted by inserting a media device,
They might insert a blank while reading a document that describes the
iso they're about to burn (ie FC3 release notes) and get very annoyed
when the damn window pops up over their article, or collecting the files
they intend to burn in nautilus, etc
People are not limited to single tasks. They can perfectly drink coffee
while listening music and reading something. Why should the computer
hammer the fact they've just done something as obvious as inserting a
CD ? How many people can open a CD box, a CD tray, take a disc inside
the box and put it in the tray, then close the tray, while being totally
oblivious to the fact they've just put a disc inside the damn computer ?
giving them the option to begin using the media is probably the best
next step.
You're not giving them an option, you're wacking them on the head with
it. A lot of people do things like warming up an oven, switching on the
TV or the radio <insert stupid example here> then moving on to something
else before going back to their oven or tv or whatever because they can
and while they could possibly devote themselves to each machine they
prefer doing it in their own order (because frankly they don't care
about the damn appliance feelings). Now thanks to the wonders of modern
computer science we're building appliances that can pout.
Popups, spash screens and other (human-)focus-stealers should not be
taken lightly.
Cheers,
--
Nicolas Mailhot
1:43 p.m.
New subject: Event based UI defaults [WAS: gnome-volume-manager blank CD defaults]
These UI discussions are some of my favorite and coupled with the
increasing componentization and modularization of FC is one of my
primary reasons for reading these lists religiously. Jeff, John, and
Nicolas and others consistently express valid viewpoints and are able to
abstract what works best for them and what would work best for most
users (which are often different beasts altogether). I dont know if this
is no an off list discussion:
I am unaware of the "real" guidelines (would love to know where to find
them) for event UI design for the fedora project and gnome but I feel
that the defaults of a UI should be targeted at a normal user (majority
of the user base). I also believe that it is important to distinguish
what will soon be normal users (slightly less technically proficient and
dont desire to be more so) from what currently are normal users
(moderately technically proficient with the desire to improve). Many of
the people that i have known use fedora because they want to learn it
and want to experiment with software alternatives but
users/companies/governments are increasingly turning to FC as a core
set of applications to "do business". These new users are much less
interested in creating the perfect computing experience for themselves
and would just like a sane set of defaults that arent obtrusive but
still inform them of important system events and a helping hand in the
right direction when they perform a new/unfamiliar operation.
That said I personally despise "intelligent" menus that reorganize items
and "automatic wizards/popups" that push you through the meat processing
plant. While this may be a gray line i believe it is the UI's job to
subtly provide the user with enough input and reinforcement as to propel
them to the next desired step without forcing them down improper paths
if they know differently (insert HAL 2000 quote here).
To this end I believe that click able system tray notifications provide
a great opportunity to guide less experienced users and dont "steal
focus" away from experienced users on a mission. They can be easily
ignored and should disappear in a reasonable amount of time (not to
mention be configurable if desired). The end goal IMO is to provide the
user with the knowledge to make the decision next time if there wasnt a
notification present.
I think Fedora is and should be attempting to be an attractive
alternative with a shallow learning curve. So it is justifiably a bit
more helpful currently then it should be as it becomes more ubiquitous.
Streamlining and unifying the process by which the user interacts with
the UI when foreign media and other elements (USB cam, printers, mp3
players, etc) are introduced if one of the most important areas of
interaction in my opinion. I think we should handle all of these
"events" in a unified way so the users becomes used to dealing with a
computer that is trying to understand what actions you are trying to
make it perform.
This is just the aggregated sentiment of someone who introduces OSS in
general and FC in particular to new users on a daily basis. I am only
slightly qualified to express these opinions and i ask that you gently
correct my mistakes/oversights where they are present. Im sure many of
my thoughts are basic principles of UI design in some class i never took
in college and i apologize if i am rehashing it for most. My opinions in
short can be summed up as this:
* Everything that can stay static should (you want a firm foundation for
new/experienced users to feel comfortable on)
* Expose the user to as few new UI elements as possible (this means
unification of function and appearance wherever possible like: removable
storage, new usb devices, etc).
* The UI experience should be like a tree in that you follow the same
branch until you are forced to deviate because of the requirements of
your destination.
* Subtly educate the user of possible and suggested actions without
forcing them down predetermined paths of functionality (notifications).
* All "interfacing events" (popups, wizards) should be initiated by the
user using the interface itself (which may mean simply clicking on a
notification).
* Make operations as easy as possible by streamlining and automating the
process where there is little question of deviance.
By giving people less to learn (unification) and helping them through
the learning process (notification) we jointly educate the unknowing and
dont pester the experienced users with "forced interfacing".
Best wishes.
--
Michael Favia michael at insitesinc dot com
Insites Incorporated http://michael.insitesinc.com
3:51 a.m.
On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 18:43, Bryan Clark wrote:
On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 09:23 +0200, Alexander Larsson wrote:
> I think we should not open it. Not even in spatial mode. I'm off the
> opinion that most "automatically open window that can disturb the users
> workflow" behaviour is wrong, as it often interfers with peoples use of
> the system.
>
> What i'm saying is: putting an icon on the desktop or in the computer
> location when you insert some media is fine, this actually helps the
> user to easier access the media, and the visible change makes it obvious
> the computer actually recognized that you did something. Poping up a
> window over the current application can break the users current action,
> plus it doesn't educate him on the interaction model we're trying to
> plant in the users mind (that the cd icon on the desktop represents the
> media).
>
> Currently we don't pop up a filemanager window when you insert any other
> kind of media, why should blank cds be different?
A filemanager no, but when you insert a Camera we ask if you want to
import the photos (this isn't the best thing to do, but close). The
problem with only putting an icon on the desktop is that you're assuming
that when I insert new media I've cleaned my screen of applications and
can clearly see the desktop. This isn't really an assumption we can
make. At the same time, a cluttered desktop could make it harder for
people to see new items appear on it, we can't assume people have clean
desktops and a new icon will be immediately visible.
Indeed, desktop cannot be assumed to be empty at the very spot where the
new icon happens to appear.
Popping up the filemanager, especially since burn:// is just a blank
window isn't the best thing to do either. What we should work on is
improving our CD burning interface so it's not so bare.
For blank CD's popping up a cd-burner is reasonably sane thing to do,
assuming the cd-burner can actually handle the situation.
I once had, um, a session, with RHL 9 nautilus where nautilus didn't
know how to blank CD-RW's: Insert CD-RW, full of some old stuff in it. A
burn:// interface pops up, I drag stuff into it, let it burn. Didn't
remember the CD-RW was full, nautilus didn't realize it either (didn't
try to mount it either IIRC) but that didn't stop nautilus from trying
to put stuff into it. Big surprise the burn eventually failed and left
the CD device locked (or just otherwise totally confused state) despite
killing nautilus so I couldn't blank it with any other means either.
Reboot was needed to clear the situation, then turn off all the
do-stuff-on-media-insert things from nautilus settings. Finally I was
able to first blank the CD and put other stuff in it.
The above problem doesn't exist anymore as such, but the moral of the
story: if we offer something automatically we'd better be DAMN sure we
can cover all the sane things user might want to do in the situation
without having the user jump through hoops to work around the
"smartness" of the gui.
If we don't popup something at all people are like to assume we didn't
realize that you inserted new media. The persons work flow behavior on
the desktop has already been interrupted by inserting a media device,
giving them the option to begin using the media is probably the best
next step.
Visual clue about "yes the computer realized something was stuck into
it" is good, popup windows are awful.
Ultimately I think using some kind of bubble up notification [1]
might
be the best thing in the short term. What I'd really like to work on is
to determine a way to figure out the work flow. What I mean is, if you
have Rhythmbox open and you insert a blank CD, we currently assume that
you're going to want burn:// because that's our default CD burning
system. However, if Rhythmbox has CD burning facilities and you have
the application open it'd be better to assume (or at least ask) that
you're going to make an audio CD and not a data CD. Yea, there's lots
of edge cases either way, but I think this work flow idea is the best
method to work towards.
Cheers,
~ Bryan
[1] One of those things from the systray area that doesn't steal focus
and allows you to open up a CD burning app.
Oh yes. Please. An icon in systray is a clear, visible clue which
doesn't get in your way. Clicking on the icon can launch the default
application for the thing (CD-burner wizard asking the necessary
questions about audio/data-cd, digicamera app, file browser, whatever).
That should be both extremely easy for new users and unobstructive as
well.
- Panu -
7:27 a.m.
On Sat, 2004-10-09 at 04:51, Panu Matilainen wrote:
> [1] One of those things from the systray area that doesn't
steal focus
> and allows you to open up a CD burning app.
Oh yes. Please. An icon in systray is a clear, visible clue which
doesn't get in your way. Clicking on the icon can launch the default
application for the thing (CD-burner wizard asking the necessary
questions about audio/data-cd, digicamera app, file browser, whatever).
That should be both extremely easy for new users and unobstructive as
well.
- Panu -
It is a bit too late in the game for something like this. I
specifically rejected using the notification area (systray) for this
because the interaction model is not quite right and the right thing to
do (i.e. Notification Bubbles) will be the way we are going in the
future.
--
J5
8:07 a.m.
On Sat, 2004-10-09 at 15:27, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
On Sat, 2004-10-09 at 04:51, Panu Matilainen wrote:
> > [1] One of those things from the systray area that doesn't steal focus
> > and allows you to open up a CD burning app.
>
> Oh yes. Please. An icon in systray is a clear, visible clue which
> doesn't get in your way. Clicking on the icon can launch the default
> application for the thing (CD-burner wizard asking the necessary
> questions about audio/data-cd, digicamera app, file browser, whatever).
> That should be both extremely easy for new users and unobstructive as
> well.
>
> - Panu -
It is a bit too late in the game for something like this.
Obviously so for FC3.
I specifically rejected using the notification area (systray) for
this
because the interaction model is not quite right and the right thing to
do (i.e. Notification Bubbles) will be the way we are going in the
future.
Assuming notification bubbles are what I think they are then that sounds
ok. Anything but popup windows :) Oh and even those are quite ok the
first time something is plugged in.
- Panu -
5:09 a.m.
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:43:54 -0400, "Bryan Clark" <bclark(a)redhat.com>
said:
Popping up the filemanager, especially since burn:// is just a blank
window isn't the best thing to do either. What we should work on is
improving our CD burning interface so it's not so bare.
This may be complete crack, but just in case... It occurred to me that
the burn:// window is a completely blank area that the user will
automatically look at when it appears. If you put an icon and/or a
line of text as the window background then the user can be cued as to
what to do next without introducing anything else to the interface.
"Drop files here to write them to CD" in soft grey, for example.
--
Stuart Ellis
s.ellis(a)fastmail.co.uk
7:31 a.m.
On Sat, 2004-10-09 at 06:09, Stuart Ellis wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:43:54 -0400, "Bryan Clark"
<bclark(a)redhat.com>
said:
> Popping up the filemanager, especially since burn:// is just a blank
> window isn't the best thing to do either. What we should work on is
> improving our CD burning interface so it's not so bare.
This may be complete crack, but just in case... It occurred to me that
the burn:// window is a completely blank area that the user will
automatically look at when it appears. If you put an icon and/or a
line of text as the window background then the user can be cued as to
what to do next without introducing anything else to the interface.
"Drop files here to write them to CD" in soft grey, for example.
Hmm, I don't seem to think it is crack. Of course I need to ask Brian
and Seth about this since they are the UI experts but adding a default
background is easy to do for any folder in Nautilus. This is similar to
how mac used to give folder directions. They used to have icons with
text and an arrow pointing to a file that would say, "Drag this file to
your system folder to install". Thanks for the suggestion.
--
J5
7175
days inactive
7177
days old
28 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Alexander Larsson -
Bryan Clark -
Clyde E. Kunkel -
David Zeuthen -
Harald Hoyer -
Jef Spaleta -
John (J5) Palmieri -
Kyrre Ness Sjobak -
Marius Andreiana -
Michael Favia -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Panu Matilainen -
Ralf Ertzinger -
Sean Middleditch -
Stuart Ellis