New Release Freeze Times

[Mohan Boddu]

Hi all,

It has been brought to our attention that release freezes starting at
00:00 UTC has been confusing for a lot of people. So, we decided to
change it to 14:00 UTC.

The freeze dates are not going to change, just the time when freeze
starts is going to change. Fedora 32 schedule [1] has been updated to
reflect the changed time.

[1] https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-32/f-32-key-tasks.html

Thanks,
Mohan Boddu.
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Hi,

Thanks a lot for this change. 00:00 is always confusing to deal with.

Jirka

On Thu, 2020-02-20 at 14:04 -0500, Mohan Boddu wrote:
>  Hi all,
>  
>  It has been brought to our attention that release freezes starting at
>  00:00 UTC has been confusing for a lot of people. So, we decided to
>  change it to 14:00 UTC.
>  
>  The freeze dates are not going to change, just the time when freeze
>  starts is going to change. Fedora 32 schedule [1] has been updated to
>  reflect the changed time.
>  
>  [1] https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-32/f-32-key-tasks.html
>  
>  Thanks,
>  Mohan Boddu.
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel-announce mailing list -- devel-announce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to 
>  devel-announce-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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[John M. Harris Jr]

On Friday, February 21, 2020 2:31:14 AM MST jkonecny(a)redhat.com wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  Thanks a lot for this change. 00:00 is always confusing to deal with.
>  
>  Jirka
>  
>  On Thu, 2020-02-20 at 14:04 -0500, Mohan Boddu wrote:
>  
>  > Hi all,
>  > 
>  > It has been brought to our attention that release freezes starting at
>  > 00:00 UTC has been confusing for a lot of people. So, we decided to
>  > change it to 14:00 UTC.
>  > 
>  > The freeze dates are not going to change, just the time when freeze
>  > starts is going to change. Fedora 32 schedule [1] has been updated to
>  > reflect the changed time.
>  > 
>  > [1] https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-32/f-32-key-tasks.html
>  > 
>  > Thanks,
>  > Mohan Boddu. 
I really must disagree. 0000 UTC is at least aligned with something. I cannot 
imagine what 1400 UTC was chosen to align with, or how this will be any less 
confusing. This seems like it'd only be *more* confusing.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr.

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 7:28 PM John M. Harris Jr <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Friday, February 21, 2020 2:31:14 AM MST jkonecny(a)redhat.com wrote:
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > Thanks a lot for this change. 00:00 is always confusing to deal with.
>  >
>  > Jirka
>  >
>  > On Thu, 2020-02-20 at 14:04 -0500, Mohan Boddu wrote:
>  >
>  > > Hi all,
>  > >
>  > > It has been brought to our attention that release freezes starting at
>  > > 00:00 UTC has been confusing for a lot of people. So, we decided to
>  > > change it to 14:00 UTC.
>  > >
>  > > The freeze dates are not going to change, just the time when freeze
>  > > starts is going to change. Fedora 32 schedule [1] has been updated to
>  > > reflect the changed time.
>  > >
>  > > [1] https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-32/f-32-key-tasks.html
>  > >
>  > > Thanks,
>  > > Mohan Boddu.
>
>  I really must disagree. 0000 UTC is at least aligned with something. I cannot
>  imagine what 1400 UTC was chosen to align with, or how this will be any less
>  confusing. This seems like it'd only be *more* confusing.
>  
14:00 UTC is 9:00 EST, so it basically means to everyone: do
everything the day before. And 00:00 is confusing because people
interpret it either the day before or the day after. It's a "special"
time that nobody should ever schedule anything people need to care
about at.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[John M. Harris Jr]

On Friday, February 21, 2020 9:03:26 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote:
>  On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 7:28 PM John M. Harris Jr
> <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > On Friday, February 21, 2020 2:31:14 AM MST jkonecny(a)redhat.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > > Hi,
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Thanks a lot for this change. 00:00 is always confusing to deal with.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Jirka
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > On Thu, 2020-02-20 at 14:04 -0500, Mohan Boddu wrote:
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > > Hi all,
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > It has been brought to our attention that release freezes starting at
>  > > > 00:00 UTC has been confusing for a lot of people. So, we decided to
>  > > > change it to 14:00 UTC.
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > The freeze dates are not going to change, just the time when freeze
>  > > > starts is going to change. Fedora 32 schedule [1] has been updated to
>  > > > reflect the changed time.
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > [1] https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-32/f-32-key-tasks.html
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > Thanks,
>  > > > Mohan Boddu.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > I really must disagree. 0000 UTC is at least aligned with something. I
>  > cannot imagine what 1400 UTC was chosen to align with, or how this will
>  > be any less confusing. This seems like it'd only be *more* confusing.
>  >
>  >
>  
>  
>  14:00 UTC is 9:00 EST, so it basically means to everyone: do
>  everything the day before. And 00:00 is confusing because people
>  interpret it either the day before or the day after. It's a "special"
>  time that nobody should ever schedule anything people need to care
>  about at. 
That's simply not true. 0000 UTC is midnight UTC. That is not difficult to 
grasp. I certainly understand the mappings, which is why this is even more 
confusing. Why was 1400 chosen?



-- 
John M. Harris, Jr.
Splentity

[Samuel Sieb]

On 2/21/20 9:32 PM, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
>  That's simply not true. 0000 UTC is midnight UTC. That is not
> difficult to
>  grasp. I certainly understand the mappings, which is why this is even more
>  confusing. Why was 1400 chosen? 
Midnight of which day?  Maybe it doesn't confuse you, but it confused 
many people.  1400 might just be an arbitrary number, why does it 
matter?  It's just a reference point, the specific time is mostly 
irrelevant.

[Kevin Kofler]

Neal Gompa wrote:
>  14:00 UTC is 9:00 EST, so it basically means to everyone: do
>  everything the day before. 
"Do everything the day before" is exactly what was confusing about the 00:00 
UTC deadline, so I do not see how the change to 14:00 UTC fixes the issue. 
It is customary to give inclusive deadlines, i.e., a deadline of day X means 
I have up to AND INCLUDING day X to do the work.

I do not see why the deadlines were not changed to 23:59 UTC deadlines 
instead, which would also not have meant any actual change in process 
(unlike this 14:00 UTC change), just a change of how the deadlines are 
announced (subtract 1 day from all the posted deadlines).

        Kevin Kofler

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 7:58 AM Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote:
>  Neal Gompa wrote:
>  > 14:00 UTC is 9:00 EST, so it basically means to everyone: do
>  > everything the day before.
>
>  "Do everything the day before" is exactly what was confusing about the 00:00
>  UTC deadline, so I do not see how the change to 14:00 UTC fixes the issue.
>  It is customary to give inclusive deadlines, i.e., a deadline of day X means
>  I have up to AND INCLUDING day X to do the work.
>
>  I do not see why the deadlines were not changed to 23:59 UTC deadlines
>  instead, which would also not have meant any actual change in process
>  (unlike this 14:00 UTC change), just a change of how the deadlines are
>  announced (subtract 1 day from all the posted deadlines).
>  
The folks that actually are doing this work are also based on US
Eastern Time, specifically out in the Boston, MA area. It is much
easier for them to pull this off by saying "welp, it's the start of
the day for me and this is the day we push the button, so let's push
it!". Previously they had to do it technically *after* the end of *the
previous day* their time, which made things confusing.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Mohan Boddu]

We didn't pick the time at random, 14:00 UTC is the time when Fedora
release gets out. We thought if we are changing the time, we should
align it with the only other time constrained task, that is, Fedora
release.

00:00 UTC is definitely confusing for some people as they complained
about it, but 14:00 UTC should not make it anymore confusing.

Also, as a side note, people will get 14 more hours to get their stuff
into the release before the freeze starts, that should help the
maintainers as well.

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 10:51 AM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>
> On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 7:58 AM Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote:
> >
> > Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > 14:00 UTC is 9:00 EST, so it basically means to everyone: do
> > > everything the day before.
> >
> > "Do everything the day before" is exactly what was confusing about the
00:00
> > UTC deadline, so I do not see how the change to 14:00 UTC fixes the issue.
> > It is customary to give inclusive deadlines, i.e., a deadline of day X means
> > I have up to AND INCLUDING day X to do the work.
> >
> > I do not see why the deadlines were not changed to 23:59 UTC deadlines
> > instead, which would also not have meant any actual change in process
> > (unlike this 14:00 UTC change), just a change of how the deadlines are
> > announced (subtract 1 day from all the posted deadlines).
> >
>
> The folks that actually are doing this work are also based on US
> Eastern Time, specifically out in the Boston, MA area. It is much
> easier for them to pull this off by saying "welp, it's the start of
> the day for me and this is the day we push the button, so let's push
> it!". Previously they had to do it technically *after* the end of *the
> previous day* their time, which made things confusing.
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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[Miro Hrončok]

On 22. 02. 20 1:28, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
>  I really must disagree. 
In my opinion, once you simply disagree with literally everything, your feedback 
no longer gives any significant meaning for the people who receive it. I know 
that it is very frustrating when everybody around you seem not to see the 
simplest reason why an idea is wrong. However I suggest you do your research 
first on the subject (in this case, when the freeze times were discussed) and 
only start a "I disagree" topic on subjects that are really very important to 
you. That way, your opinion has a larger chance of being considered.

Thanks.

-- 
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: [phone]
IRC: mhroncok

[John M. Harris Jr]

On Friday, February 21, 2020 10:52:27 PM MST Miro Hrončok wrote:
>  On 22. 02. 20 1:28, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
>  
>  > I really must disagree.
>  
>  
>  In my opinion, once you simply disagree with literally everything, your
>  feedback  no longer gives any significant meaning for the people who
>  receive it. I know that it is very frustrating when everybody around you
>  seem not to see the simplest reason why an idea is wrong. However I suggest
>  you do your research first on the subject (in this case, when the freeze
>  times were discussed) and only start a "I disagree" topic on subjects that
>  are really very important to you. That way, your opinion has a larger
>  chance of being considered. 
>  Thanks. 
While this is clearly not the most important of such issues, I suppose it just 
seemed a bit illogical to use a seemingly random offset, rather than the start 
of that day in UTC. I don't really have a dog in this fight regardless, it's 
just weird, I suppose.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr.
Splentity

[Peter Robinson]

>  On Friday, February 21, 2020 10:52:27 PM MST Miro Hrončok wrote:
>  > On 22. 02. 20 1:28, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
>  >
>  > > I really must disagree.
>  >
>  >
>  > In my opinion, once you simply disagree with literally everything, your
>  > feedback  no longer gives any significant meaning for the people who
>  > receive it. I know that it is very frustrating when everybody around you
>  > seem not to see the simplest reason why an idea is wrong. However I suggest
>  > you do your research first on the subject (in this case, when the freeze
>  > times were discussed) and only start a "I disagree" topic on subjects
> that
>  > are really very important to you. That way, your opinion has a larger
>  > chance of being considered.
>  > Thanks.
>
>  While this is clearly not the most important of such issues, I suppose it just
>  seemed a bit illogical to use a seemingly random offset, rather than the start
>  of that day in UTC. I don't really have a dog in this fight regardless, it's
>  just weird, I suppose. 
It makes sense for a number of reasons besides the confusion, in
particular it means working hours for the people that have to do the
work as opposed to some other time.

[Test-Announce] New Release Freeze Times

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 2/20/20 8:04 PM, Mohan Boddu wrote:
>  Hi all,
>  
>  It has been brought to our attention that release freezes starting at
>  00:00 UTC has been confusing for a lot of people. So, we decided to
>  change it to 14:00 UTC. 
This longs for an explanation.

I fail to understand why 14:00 UTC should be less confusing than 00:00 
UTC. Seems like planless bikesheding to me.

Ralf

[Test-Announce] New Release Freeze Times

[Fabio Valentini]

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020, 10:47 Ralf Corsepius <rc040203(a)freenet.de&gt; wrote:

>  On 2/20/20 8:04 PM, Mohan Boddu wrote:
>  > Hi all,
>  >
>  > It has been brought to our attention that release freezes starting at
>  > 00:00 UTC has been confusing for a lot of people. So, we decided to
>  > change it to 14:00 UTC.
>
>  This longs for an explanation.
>
>  I fail to understand why 14:00 UTC should be less confusing than 00:00
>  UTC. Seems like planless bikesheding to me.
>
>  Ralf
>  
I assume 00:00 UTC was confusing for people used to the AM/PM (12h) time
format instead of the 24h format.

For people used to 24h clocks, it's completely obvious that 00:00 is the
beginning of the day, and 24:00 is the end of the day (= equivalent to
00:00 of the following day).

Whereas with 12h clocks, I think midnight is 12:00 PM, and noon is 12:00
AM? Which is still confusing me after having known about it for decades.

Fabio

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[Test-Announce] New Release Freeze Times

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 11:06:30AM +0100, Fabio Valentini wrote:
>  I assume 00:00 UTC was confusing for people used to the AM/PM (12h)
> time
>  format instead of the 24h format.
>  
>  For people used to 24h clocks, it's completely obvious that 00:00 is the
>  beginning of the day, and 24:00 is the end of the day (= equivalent to
>  00:00 of the following day).
>  
>  Whereas with 12h clocks, I think midnight is 12:00 PM, and noon is 12:00
>  AM? Which is still confusing me after having known about it for decades. 
It's the opposite, which furthers your point. :)



-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Test-Announce] New Release Freeze Times

[Thomas Moschny]

Am Di., 25. Feb. 2020 um 20:37 Uhr schrieb Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;:
>  > Whereas with 12h clocks, I think midnight is 12:00 PM, and noon
> is 12:00
>  > AM? Which is still confusing me after having known about it for decades.
>
>  It's the opposite, which furthers your point. :) 
That does not seem to be very clear:
https://www.npl.co.uk/resources/q-a/is-midnight-12am-or-12pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight

- Thomas