On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 13:05, Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:57 PM Stephen John Smoogen <smooge(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 12:47, Owen Taylor <otaylor(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:40 PM Stephen John Smoogen <smooge(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 11:37, Owen Taylor <otaylor(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > > Fedora needs to be an operating system provider, not just an
operating
> > > > system toolbox provider. <cut>
> > >
> > > I feel like we have been saying this for 15+ years even before Fedora
> > > was Fedora. Even back in the RHL days, we would argue over whether
> > > what we were providing was an 'OS' or not versus a toolkit for
someone
> > > else to work with.
> >
> > I don't think we've just been saying this, I think we've been
steadily
> > improving in this area - both in our focus and in our processes. The
> > move to editions was particularly helpful.
> >
>
> I didn't mean to assume we haven't improved on it, but I do believe it
> is the central 'conflict' we have had. My main worry is that can we
> actually achieve being an "operating system provider" or are we always
> going to be a toolbox who isn't happy with itself? (or thirdly, are we
> already an operating system provider with delusions of being a
> toolbox?)
Why do either of those possibilities matter? Or asked more directly,
why wouldn't we continue to look at ourselves and iterate and try to
improve? There is no "done" state in an operating system.
You communicated clearer in your previous email what I wanted to say
better than I have in mine. Evolution versus revolution. We spend a
lot of time and energy talking for and against revolutions every
release because we don't seem to know what we are at and when in fact
most of them are evolutions which later on weren't as big as expected.
I just want us to come to some consensus on what we have accomplished,
where we are at, and then see if we can work out what we need to
iterate and improve. [I am probably still not communicating this any
better than I did in my previous emails, as I think you covered it
very well previously. ]
> How can we know if we actually are still making progress if we
each
> have a different definition of what that operating system is.
Great question. I know there are different ideas around it in terms
of platform vs. core/extras vs. lifecycles of different bits. I think
coming to a general consensus on that is a huge part of the discussion
we're having here.
Thanks. I am interested in working out what we have accomplished so
far, and what we are hurting on in concrete terms.
josh
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--
Stephen J Smoogen.