Sorry if this is off-topic... (If it is, please tell me what list I need to direct this to).
I know a wee bit about marketing, and I don't know if anyone has brought it to the attention of those in the know at RH's branding department about the fact the RH logo is still present in the fedora test2 0.94 release.
I would suggest replacing it with the "favicon" that is present on the fedora.redhat.com website.
The convention would be that under the Enterprise edition, the RH logo would be present(on the menu bar and other places), and on Fedora Core, a Fedora logo would be present. I think the [F] favicon would suffice in this area unless there is work being done on an official fedora logo.
The idea, from what I have gathered, is to split out the two identities: a.) Fedora -- community distro b.) Redhat -- Enterprise server
Sorry if I've missed something here.
-Trae
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 10:04, Trae McCombs wrote:
I know a wee bit about marketing, and I don't know if anyone has brought it to the attention of those in the know at RH's branding department about the fact the RH logo is still present in the fedora test2 0.94 release.
The hat icon used on the panel isn't the Red Hat logo, it's just a generic red fedora. The Red Hat logo is the "shadowman" which is the 2D circle with the man wearing a hat.
The convention would be that under the Enterprise edition, the RH logo would be present(on the menu bar and other places), and on Fedora Core, a Fedora logo would be present. I think the [F] favicon would suffice in this area unless there is work being done on an official fedora logo.
The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to come up with one at some point.
Havoc
On Sep 27, 2003, Havoc Pennington hp@redhat.com wrote:
The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to come up with one at some point.
/me thinks the Fedora logo should have the capital F turned into a hat hanger, with a red fedora hanging off of it. Any graphical artists willing to give it a try?
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 00:20, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 27, 2003, Havoc Pennington hp@redhat.com wrote:
The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to come up with one at some point.
/me thinks the Fedora logo should have the capital F turned into a hat hanger, with a red fedora hanging off of it. Any graphical artists willing to give it a try?
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations - leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations - leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
I concur. The GNOME people are correct in this.
I see that we've gotten a dialog going here, but is there a sub-committee of people or something that will work on a solution for this. If so I'd like to volunteer my expertise and assist in anyway I can in helping the "UI" team for fedora.
On a note as far as using text... What's wrong with having text? As long as it's something that can change according to ones language. I'm sure there is something in the HIG that will tell me, but I can't find how that pertains to a "start" button.
I do think calling it fedora or something cryptic like that wouldn't be good.
I can, and don't mind simply posting ideas to the list, but didn't want to clog things up.
Trae
(ps. ltns Eric :)
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:30, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations - leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
I concur. The GNOME people are correct in this.
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 23:26, Trae McCombs wrote:
I see that we've gotten a dialog going here, but is there a sub-committee of people or something that will work on a solution for this. If so I'd like to volunteer my expertise and assist in anyway I can in helping the "UI" team for fedora.
On a note as far as using text... What's wrong with having text? As long as it's something that can change according to ones language. I'm sure there is something in the HIG that will tell me, but I can't find how that pertains to a "start" button.
Because icons and graphics don't change with your language, only with your icon theme. Plus, remaking a logo for every language out there would be insane.
If we want text, that's great, but we need to get GNOME (and KDE, if needed) to support a real text label in the main menu icon. Then it can be localized/internationalized just like any other text.
I do think calling it fedora or something cryptic like that wouldn't be good.
I can, and don't mind simply posting ideas to the list, but didn't want to clog things up.
Trae
(ps. ltns Eric :)
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:30, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
As per the GNOME HIG, keep all letters out of icons in all situations - leave all letters and words to labels that can be easily translated.
I concur. The GNOME people are correct in this.
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:22, Sean Middleditch wrote:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
A bit of a humorous aside -- in popular Russian children's literature, "Fedora" is the name of a woman who was such a poor housekeeper, that all her belongings ran away from her screaming, including plates, silverware, cups and glasses (who all smashed themselves in the process) so she was left with only cats and roaches for company.
However, the story ends well, as Fedora promises that she'll take much better care of her stuff, so it returns happily back to her, cooking her some dinner in the process.
Not really relevant, but "Fedora" is sure to bring up a chuckle or a grin when mentioned among people who grew up in Russia. The name of the poem itself is "Fedora's Troubles" (Федорино Горе), so I'm sure there'll be plenty of headlines in the Russian IT press playing off of that. :)
Cheers,
Em Segunda, 29 de Setembro de 2003 03:47, Konstantin Riabitsev escreveu:
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 22:22, Sean Middleditch wrote:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
A bit of a humorous aside -- in popular Russian children's literature, "Fedora" is the name of a woman who was such a poor housekeeper, that all her belongings ran away from her screaming, including plates, silverware, cups and glasses (who all smashed themselves in the process) so she was left with only cats and roaches for company.
In Portugal the word fedora isn't used directly, but we've got "fedorenta", which means something that stinks :-)
Pedro Morais
Pedro Morais pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt:
In Portugal the word fedora isn't used directly, but we've got "fedorenta", which means something that stinks :-)
The rare word 'fetor' in English describes a bad smell, especially an animal or rotting smell. Clearly a cognate.
On Sep 28, 2003, Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com wrote:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
Icon != Logo. I'm talking about the project logo. Fedora is the name of the project. You don't translate that, just like Red Hat isn't called `Chapéu Vermelho' where I live.
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 04:44, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 28, 2003, Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com wrote:
That's not a good idea - that makes a symbol a meaningful part of the icon which is completely meaningless to people using languages that don't use latin letters or have the word 'Fedora'.
Icon != Logo. I'm talking about the project logo. Fedora is the name of the project. You don't translate that, just like Red Hat isn't called `Chapéu Vermelho' where I live.
When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon, then yes, the logo quite obviously does equal an icon.
On Sep 29, 2003, Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com wrote:
When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon,
It was already pointed out before that that's not a logo. If it were a Red Hat logo, it wouldn't be there any more. The icon is just a generic red fedora.
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 10:55, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 29, 2003, Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com wrote:
When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon,
It was already pointed out before that that's not a logo. If it were a Red Hat logo, it wouldn't be there any more. The icon is just a generic red fedora.
Ah. I'd argue its the same problem anyhow (not to mention letters in logos is just tacky), human interaction isn't limited to the GUI. Anyways, I assumed you meant the logo/icon for the task icon, given the name of the thread - if you're on a different subject entirely, warn us. ;-)
Alexandre Oliva wrote:
On Sep 29, 2003, Sean Middleditch elanthis@awesomeplay.com wrote:
When you're taling about the logo being the main menu icon,
It was already pointed out before that that's not a logo. If it were a Red Hat logo, it wouldn't be there any more. The icon is just a generic red fedora.
It would be interesting to adopt another color to Fedora Project, like blue for logos and so on...
On Sep 29, 2003, Xose Vazquez Perez xose@wanadoo.es wrote:
It would be interesting to adopt another color to Fedora Project, like blue for logos and so on...
You know... I *really* miss the red in the installer and login screens. It feels so odd...
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 13:22, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 12:14, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
Fedora is the name of the project. You don't translate that, just like Red Hat isn't called `Chapéu Vermelho' where I live.
But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my language.
Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
That makes me happy.
-sv
Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
Am Di, 2003-09-30 um 09.09 schrieb Roozbeh Pournader:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 04:04, seth vidal wrote:
But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my language.
Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
Entirely related: it was written with Evolution also.
roozbeh
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 05:39, Harald Hoyer wrote:
Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my language.
Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language to know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
-sv
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 15:19, seth vidal wrote:
Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language to know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
This was the Persian language, written in the Arabic script. And yes, it *does* have that "contextual shaping" behavior. But in no language in the word should selecting (a read-only act) change the appearance underlying text. But again, since this is a bidirectional script, so getting things like this right is a little hard.
roozbeh
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 15:19, seth vidal wrote:
Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language to know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
This was the Persian language, written in the Arabic script. And yes, it *does* have that "contextual shaping" behavior. But in no language in the word should selecting (a read-only act) change the appearance underlying text. But again, since this is a bidirectional script, so getting things like this right is a little hard.
First time I saw this behaviour was in mozilla. Right now I'm thinking that having such a *feature* may not be so bad some times. Consider selecting Arabic text when your font supports and you are seeing those nasty ligatures of three or more letters...
roozbeh
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 12:49, seth vidal wrote:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 05:39, Harald Hoyer wrote:
Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my language.
Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
Yah - I noticed that too. But I wasn't familiar with the language to know if selecting only part of it changed the letter to be used. For example, korean changes the character dependent on what you type.
I believe it's a right-to-left bug: when you select it the order of characters is reversed. In vi it looks reversed to evolution. So without looking at the source too much, that's what I suspect it is.
I filed a bug before getting to this e-mail ;)
Harald Hoyer wrote:
Try to select the sentence word by word with the mouse :-)
Am Di, 2003-09-30 um 09.09 schrieb Roozbeh Pournader:
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 04:04, seth vidal wrote:
But you may 'transcribe' it. Fedora may become 'فدورا' in my language.
Entirely unrelated - but evolution showed those fonts really well.
Entirely related: it was written with Evolution also.
Selects without changes in Mozilla :)
double click gives: 'فدورا
higlighting gives: 'فدورا'
Appears to paste OK to. Scrolling through the characters is interesting (r->l issue?).
-Thomas
Bill Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 09:06, Havoc Pennington wrote:
The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to come up with one at some point.
I propose a blue fedora. :)
If it's open to discussion: i have no bias about what color but this logo sure is too basic... something at least a lil bit flashier wouldnt do any hard.....
Van
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:38:34 -0300 "Rodrigo Del C. Andrade" fedora_rh@terra.com.br wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 09:06, Havoc Pennington wrote:
The current Fedora site omits a logo so that there's the flexibility to come up with one at some point.
I propose a blue fedora. :)
If it's open to discussion: i have no bias about what color but this logo sure is too basic... something at least a lil bit flashier wouldnt do any hard.....
I hope Fedora sticks to Redhat's roots, meaning a simplistic approach to things as much as possible. Flash can get ugly
Van
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
On Sî, 2003-09-27 at 17:04, Trae McCombs wrote:
I would suggest replacing it with the "favicon" that is present on the fedora.redhat.com website.
how about replacing it with a graphic that suggest there's a menu there? People coming from Windows are used to start by pressing Start, now they have to press on a hat, very intuitive.
Most usable I could find is /usr/share/pixmaps/gnome-run.png but should be something better, made specially for the main menu.
how about replacing it with a graphic that suggest there's a menu there? People coming from Windows are used to start by pressing Start, now they have to press on a hat, very intuitive.
You know, this is actually a great idea. Should I try and corner Garrett, Jakub, or Tuomas about doing a mock-up? I know this is opening pandoras box, and inviting a possible "butter-battle"(see Dr. Seuss), but I think it helps address something that's been lacking for a while. I think the better solution to the problem is to have a menu bar preferences setting for the following:
border relief: on/off text: [start] (would be nice to be able to edit it in prefs) change icon: [icon] (this would be nice for those that want to keep things co-ordinated and not have an icon hard-coded that might not match their desktop.
Anyhoo... my two pennies...
-trae
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 14:19, Marius Andreiana wrote:
how about replacing it with a graphic that suggest there's a menu there? People coming from Windows are used to start by pressing Start, now they have to press on a hat, very intuitive.
GNOME 2.4 now supports a non-square thing there; ideally I believe it would be simply text (perhaps saying "Main Menu") plus maybe an arrow drawn by the theme engine and/or an icon of some kind.
Though I don't think KDE supports a rectangle with text so it introduces a consistency problem if we do that. Also if using a rectangle we'd probably want the half-height panel.
Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
- the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
- they always have text+icon instead of just icon for the stuff on the panel; all the applets have labels
Havoc
(snip)
Though I don't think KDE supports a rectangle with text so it introduces a consistency problem if we do that. Also if using a rectangle we'd probably want the half-height panel.
Why would it introduce a consistency problem ? If I agree that some people might use QT (or KDE) apps along with GTK (or GNOME) apps, I don't see why anyone would want to go from KDE to GNOME and vice-versa (except testers and hobbyists, who don't really care about those details anyway IMHO).
So KDE users will be used to the KDE icon and GNOME users to the "Main menu" text field.
Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
- the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
Are you sure ? From the screenshots I have seen and what I have read, the panel is on the bottom (like in other windows versions) but you can - optionally - have a vertical panel on the right side which mostly handles additional stuff (like a special clock, a slide show etc...).
(snip)
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 14:15, Julien Olivier wrote:
Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
- the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
Are you sure ? From the screenshots I have seen and what I have read, the panel is on the bottom (like in other windows versions) but you can
- optionally - have a vertical panel on the right side which mostly
handles additional stuff (like a special clock, a slide show etc...).
I think they've kept the bottom panel, but made the sidebar thing optional. Here are some Longhorn preview screenies that demonstrate both behaviors:
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_alpha.asp
-jck
Havoc Pennington wrote:
Two observations about Longhorn (next-gen windows):
- the panel is on the side, so you have more vertical space for documents (though I'm not sure where the window list lives)
Which might actually not be so smart and be removed before RTM. People do not have a square vision as movie makers well know. One nice side-effect of all the panels, menu/status/tool bars and such is the working area has actually a wide screen form factor enevn on 4/3 screens.
Regards,
-
Alexandre Oliva -
Andrew Sobala -
Behdad Esfahbod -
Bill Anderson -
Eric S. Raymond -
Harald Hoyer -
Havoc Pennington -
Jens Knutson -
Julien Olivier -
Konstantin Ryabitsev -
Marius Andreiana -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Pedro Morais -
Rodrigo Del C. Andrade -
Roozbeh Pournader -
Sean Middleditch -
seth vidal -
Thomas Dodd -
Trae McCombs -
Vincent -
Xose Vazquez Perez