Here are some of my ideas for Fedora 8 and Fedora 9

[Valent Turkovic]

Hi,

here are some of my ideas in which I see that Fedora can improve
general user and desktop experience and usability. I would like you to
see my comment and suggestion in the manner I made them - I don't mean
to be a critic but only an objective observer that loves usind Fedora
at home and also at work and would like to see more people do so - and
I belive that with some of ideas I have here more people would use
Fedora and be more productive.

* NTFS support during installation
there should be NTFS support built in to anaconda so that ntfs
partitions are automatically recognized and added to /etc/fstab - and
that users are given an option to make them read-only or to be mounted
in read-write mode.

* Beagle and Deskbar installed by default
these applications make all the difference for an desktop user between
an "OK" user experience and "wonderful" user experience. Work flow
using these two applications is radically improved and this is what
should be showcased as a "Modern linux desktop".
- also I would add a beagle firefox plugin which also makes all the
difference when you need some resource you saw online but didn't
bookmark it or put it on del.ico.us
- these apps don't waste resources, and the memory footprint is really
not that much, especially if put in context that you really have to
look hard these days for a system that has less or equal to 256MB of
memory. I tested beagle on 3 laptop systems with fedora 6 / 7 and one
desktop with also fedora 6 / 7 and I didn't have a single issue. So
for me not to have in installed in Fedora 7 was a big disappointment.

* Tomboy installed by default
- I have all the same arguments here as I do for Beagle and Deskbar

* Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel
the icon fedora uses makes me search for firefox icon all the time. I
guess that I'm not the only one. Firefox has one of the most
recognisable icons I have ever seen and simply don't see why fedora
uses non-firefox icon. It just confuses users.

* Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live Help")
Fedora is about freedom+communication, right? Why not make this
statement more that just a nice slogan. If you installed saabyon linux
you could experienced for yourself what this really means. I as a new
user to gentoo (sabayon is based on gentoo) was really blown away with
this feature. It is really, really simple to implement and gives a
real meaning to a communication friendly linux distro.
In sabayon link to their IRC chat has a simple name "Get Live Help"
and it work fabulous! I didn't have any Portage experience so I poped
in IRC chat room and was on my way after I got quick help. Whis kind
of help was precious to me and would love to see it in fedora as one
of it's main features and not just as a slogan.
screenshot: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=382063978&size=l

* Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux thing" can do :)
This is especially important for a live cd versions. Ubuntu has this
"feature" on each of their live cd's as a folder on desktop. In these
folder you can see and test for yourself some filetypes and apps that
work woth them. So for example you open examples folder and see how
some spreadsheets work in "this linux thing" by simply clicking on the
spreadsheat that they placed in there and also for some text
documents, images and the most important thing - there is an video
clip. And it is a really nice video about the meaning of Ubuntu
project. I saw some great videos on redhat magazine page and it is a
shame that these aren't part of Fedora 7 live cd's. I hope you see the
great value in video presentation and include some great videos on
Fedora 8 live CD.
ubuntu examples:
http://johnny.chadda.se/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Ubuntu_Examples.png
and another: http://knowledge76.com/images/thumb/800px-Dapper_examples.png

* a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop
Put any new user in front of fresh Fedora 7 desktop and ask them to
burn some files to CD or DVD - any watch them as they wiggle
unpleasantly as they can't find any burning app under gnome desktop.
Puting a link for nautils burner under "Places / CD - DVD Recoder"
doesn't help. If you choose atleast not to include Brassero as the
default burning app under gnome then at least thre should be a link
for "CD Recoder" placed somewhere under "Applications" menu and not
"Places" menu.


I have some other ideas, suggestions and improvements I would love to
see but these are the main ones. I hope you see all of my suggestions
to Fedora desktop in the manner they were written - as my intention
was to be as objective as possible and not to be a critic. I love
Fedora and it is definitely by my opinion the best distro for Desktop
users (yes, even better than Ubuntu).

Valent.
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Skype: valent.turkovic

[Ian Chapman]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  * NTFS support during installation
>  there should be NTFS support built in to anaconda so that ntfs
>  partitions are automatically recognized and added to /etc/fstab 
Providing that was optional, ie they should only go into the fstab if 
the user wants them there.

>  * Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel
>  the icon fedora uses makes me search for firefox icon all the time. I
>  guess that I'm not the only one. Firefox has one of the most
>  recognisable icons I have ever seen and simply don't see why fedora
>  uses non-firefox icon. It just confuses users. 
That has something to do with the default icon not direcly using 
Firefox, it uses the user's preferred browser which by default is 
Firefox but if it's changed could launch something else. I forget the 
exact mechanics of it.

-- 
Ian Chapman.

[Naheem Zaffar]

On 02/07/07, Ian Chapman <packages(a)amiga-hardware.com&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  >
>  > * NTFS support during installation
>  > there should be NTFS support built in to anaconda so that ntfs
>  > partitions are automatically recognized and added to /etc/fstab
>
>  Providing that was optional, ie they should only go into the fstab if
>  the user wants them there.
>  
In other words, just include ntfs-config in the dafault install?

[Valent Turkovic]

On 7/2/07, Naheem Zaffar <naheemzaffar(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On 02/07/07, Ian Chapman <packages(a)amiga-hardware.com&gt; wrote:
>  > Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > >
>  > > * NTFS support during installation
>  > > there should be NTFS support built in to anaconda so that ntfs
>  > > partitions are automatically recognized and added to /etc/fstab
>  >
>  > Providing that was optional, ie they should only go into the fstab if
>  > the user wants them there.
>  >
>  In other words, just include ntfs-config in the dafault install? 
It needs to be in anaconda. If anaconda runs ntfs-config or does it
it's own way I as a user don't care. To be clear I don't have any NTFS
partitions on my system but I saw this as a mayor showstopper for
users with windows partition trying this great new thing called fedora
linux.
Users new to linux and fedora install it and can't access their data
(on NTFS partitions). They don't know why it doesn't work and why is
their partition grayed out during the install. This should JustWork
out of the box. They don't know about ntfs-3g and ntfs-config and if
you tell them to open a "dos window" and type some commands to it they
will probably run away from fedora desktop screaming :)

-- 
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241
Skype: valent.turkovic

[Gerry Reno]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  here are some of my ideas in which I see that Fedora can improve
>  general user and desktop experience and usability. I would like you to
>  see my comment and suggestion in the manner I made them - I don't mean
>  to be a critic but only an objective observer that loves usind Fedora
>  at home and also at work and would like to see more people do so - and
>  I belive that with some of ideas I have here more people would use
>  Fedora and be more productive.
>
>  * NTFS support during installation
>  there should be NTFS support built in to anaconda so that ntfs
>  partitions are automatically recognized and added to /etc/fstab - and
>  that users are given an option to make them read-only or to be mounted
>  in read-write mode.
>
>  * Beagle and Deskbar installed by default
>  these applications make all the difference for an desktop user between
>  an "OK" user experience and "wonderful" user experience. Work flow
>  using these two applications is radically improved and this is what
>  should be showcased as a "Modern linux desktop".
>  - also I would add a beagle firefox plugin which also makes all the
>  difference when you need some resource you saw online but didn't
>  bookmark it or put it on del.ico.us
>  - these apps don't waste resources, and the memory footprint is really
>  not that much, especially if put in context that you really have to
>  look hard these days for a system that has less or equal to 256MB of
>  memory. I tested beagle on 3 laptop systems with fedora 6 / 7 and one
>  desktop with also fedora 6 / 7 and I didn't have a single issue. So
>  for me not to have in installed in Fedora 7 was a big disappointment.
>
>  * Tomboy installed by default
>  - I have all the same arguments here as I do for Beagle and Deskbar
>
>  * Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel
>  the icon fedora uses makes me search for firefox icon all the time. I
>  guess that I'm not the only one. Firefox has one of the most
>  recognisable icons I have ever seen and simply don't see why fedora
>  uses non-firefox icon. It just confuses users.
>
>  * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live Help")
>  Fedora is about freedom+communication, right? Why not make this
>  statement more that just a nice slogan. If you installed saabyon linux
>  you could experienced for yourself what this really means. I as a new
>  user to gentoo (sabayon is based on gentoo) was really blown away with
>  this feature. It is really, really simple to implement and gives a
>  real meaning to a communication friendly linux distro.
>  In sabayon link to their IRC chat has a simple name "Get Live Help"
>  and it work fabulous! I didn't have any Portage experience so I poped
>  in IRC chat room and was on my way after I got quick help. Whis kind
>  of help was precious to me and would love to see it in fedora as one
>  of it's main features and not just as a slogan.
>  screenshot: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=382063978&size=l
>
>  * Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux thing" can do :)
>  This is especially important for a live cd versions. Ubuntu has this
>  "feature" on each of their live cd's as a folder on desktop. In these
>  folder you can see and test for yourself some filetypes and apps that
>  work woth them. So for example you open examples folder and see how
>  some spreadsheets work in "this linux thing" by simply clicking on the
>  spreadsheat that they placed in there and also for some text
>  documents, images and the most important thing - there is an video
>  clip. And it is a really nice video about the meaning of Ubuntu
>  project. I saw some great videos on redhat magazine page and it is a
>  shame that these aren't part of Fedora 7 live cd's. I hope you see the
>  great value in video presentation and include some great videos on
>  Fedora 8 live CD.
>  ubuntu examples:
>  http://johnny.chadda.se/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Ubuntu_Examples.png
>  and another: 
>  http://knowledge76.com/images/thumb/800px-Dapper_examples.png
>
>  * a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop
>  Put any new user in front of fresh Fedora 7 desktop and ask them to
>  burn some files to CD or DVD - any watch them as they wiggle
>  unpleasantly as they can't find any burning app under gnome desktop.
>  Puting a link for nautils burner under "Places / CD - DVD Recoder"
>  doesn't help. If you choose atleast not to include Brassero as the
>  default burning app under gnome then at least thre should be a link
>  for "CD Recoder" placed somewhere under "Applications" menu and not
>  "Places" menu.
>
>
>  I have some other ideas, suggestions and improvements I would love to
>  see but these are the main ones. I hope you see all of my suggestions
>  to Fedora desktop in the manner they were written - as my intention
>  was to be as objective as possible and not to be a critic. I love
>  Fedora and it is definitely by my opinion the best distro for Desktop
>  users (yes, even better than Ubuntu).
>
>  Valent. 
Valent,
  I agree with you.  As far as desktop users, the out-of-the-box Linux 
experience has to be Wow! with little demos of Wow!  The installer 
Anaconda has to be flawless.  It still had some hiccups in F7 which I 
think was related to libata.  Another thing in Disk Druid that I would 
like to see is the ability to install on a degraded RAID-1 array where I 
declare RAID-1 but then the second mirror is missing.  I install this 
way all the time on systems and then when I add the second hard drive 
later and place it into the array, it just syncs.  Want to go back to 
just a single drive - no problem.  Just fault the device and remove it.  
No complicated remounting filesystems or anything - very smooth.  This 
way you're always on an md device.  I would like to see this actually 
become the default.
  From my perspective dealing mostly with servers, I would like to see 
libata get back support for all the previous controllers that were 
lost.  Like HighPoint.  We got killed with F7 when we put in on a few 
boxes with HighPoint controllers and the kernel would not even boot.  
Much scrambling then ensued.   All-in-all just make everything that's in 
F7 work well so that the initial experience for new-to-Fedora folks is 
really great.

my 2c,
Gerry

[Valent Turkovic]

>  Valent,
>    I agree with you.  As far as desktop users, the out-of-the-box Linux
>  experience has to be Wow! with little demos of Wow!  The installer
>  Anaconda has to be flawless.  It still had some hiccups in F7 which I
>  think was related to libata.  Another thing in Disk Druid that I would
>  like to see is the ability to install on a degraded RAID-1 array where I
>  declare RAID-1 but then the second mirror is missing.  I install this
>  way all the time on systems and then when I add the second hard drive
>  later and place it into the array, it just syncs.  Want to go back to
>  just a single drive - no problem.  Just fault the device and remove it.
>  No complicated remounting filesystems or anything - very smooth.  This
>  way you're always on an md device.  I would like to see this actually
>  become the default. 
I don't use raid setups but I plan to do some time soon and I
completely agree with you - your suggestions would be great. Maybe
this is worth staring a separate thread and lobing for it? ;)

> All-in-all just make everything that's in
>  F7 work well so that the initial experience for new-to-Fedora folks is
>  really great. 
I would like also to see this; especially user switcher which caused
me a lot of data and time loss! Really great idea but buggy as hell!
And then when I see they removed beagle because it was "buggy" but
work for me on lots of systems (7 desktops) I tried flawlessly - and
then fedora includes this totally new and buggy feature :(

>  my 2c,
>  Gerry 
add another 2c :)

Valent.

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http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241
Skype: valent.turkovic

[Jeffrey Ollie]

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 23:23 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  
>  * Beagle and Deskbar installed by default
>  these applications make all the difference for an desktop user between
>  an "OK" user experience and "wonderful" user experience. Work flow
>  using these two applications is radically improved and this is what
>  should be showcased as a "Modern linux desktop".
>  - also I would add a beagle firefox plugin which also makes all the
>  difference when you need some resource you saw online but didn't
>  bookmark it or put it on del.ico.us
>  - these apps don't waste resources, and the memory footprint is really
>  not that much, especially if put in context that you really have to
>  look hard these days for a system that has less or equal to 256MB of
>  memory. I tested beagle on 3 laptop systems with fedora 6 / 7 and one
>  desktop with also fedora 6 / 7 and I didn't have a single issue. So
>  for me not to have in installed in Fedora 7 was a big disappointment. 
There was a recent discussion on this topic and the decision was to
remove Beagle from the default install because for too many users Beagle
would suck up 100% CPU and leave the machine virtually unusable. See the
archives for details.  Once Beagle matures some more and causes fewer
problems like this having Beagle in the default install can be
reconsidered.

Jeff

[Valent Turkovic]

>  There was a recent discussion on this topic and the decision was to
>  remove Beagle from the default install because for too many users Beagle
>  would suck up 100% CPU and leave the machine virtually unusable. See the
>  archives for details.  Once Beagle matures some more and causes fewer
>  problems like this having Beagle in the default install can be
>  reconsidered.
>
>  Jeff
>  
The beagle was disabled (I'm on bugzilla for that beagle bug and also
I was active in discussions on mailing lists when that happened) but
IMHO the reasoning that was for it to not be installed by default
would make Fedora 7 look like Fedora Core 3 if it was applied to
fedora as a whole and not only to beagle.

I have substantially tested beagle on 7 different desktops and had
ZERO problems. Also the bug in bugzilla is really vague. I have much
more problems with other features in Fedora 7; like user switcher
which, if you haven't used it, causes data losses and time losses.
When other user logs in then after some time first X session just
crashes taking all apps and all the work that has been going on there
down with it! This is a MUCH more severe bug that beagle can produce
and it is still installed by default on all Fedora 7 desktops. This is
inconsistent. Either don't include any of new fetures that aren't
rock-solid in Fedora 7, 8, 9, etc, or give us these great apps and
iron the bugs out along the was. Fedora team should have left beagle
installed an on by default and hunt down and squashed that bug.

I contacted beagle maintainers for fedora and offered them my hand in
testing if beagle is now good enough for prime time.
here is the bugzilla link:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217031

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registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241
Skype: valent.turkovic

[Gerry Reno]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > There was a recent discussion on this topic and the decision was
> to
> > remove Beagle from the default install because for too many users Beagle
> > would suck up 100% CPU and leave the machine virtually unusable. See the
> > archives for details.  Once Beagle matures some more and causes fewer
> > problems like this having Beagle in the default install can be
> > reconsidered.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>
>  The beagle was disabled (I'm on bugzilla for that beagle bug and also
>  I was active in discussions on mailing lists when that happened) but
>  IMHO the reasoning that was for it to not be installed by default
>  would make Fedora 7 look like Fedora Core 3 if it was applied to
>  fedora as a whole and not only to beagle.
>
>  I have substantially tested beagle on 7 different desktops and had
>  ZERO problems. Also the bug in bugzilla is really vague. I have much
>  more problems with other features in Fedora 7; like user switcher
>  which, if you haven't used it, causes data losses and time losses.
>  When other user logs in then after some time first X session just
>  crashes taking all apps and all the work that has been going on there
>  down with it! This is a MUCH more severe bug that beagle can produce
>  and it is still installed by default on all Fedora 7 desktops. This is
>  inconsistent. Either don't include any of new fetures that aren't
>  rock-solid in Fedora 7, 8, 9, etc, or give us these great apps and
>  iron the bugs out along the was. Fedora team should have left beagle
>  installed an on by default and hunt down and squashed that bug.
>
>  I contacted beagle maintainers for fedora and offered them my hand in
>  testing if beagle is now good enough for prime time.
>  here is the bugzilla link:
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217031
>  
Hi Valent,
  I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my 
desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like 
beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource 
when it was running trying to do this.  At first I didn't know why 
things were so sluggish and then 'top' showed beagle consuming 
everything.  'beagle' needs to get some intelligent throttling and 
perhaps just some bugs fixed before I'll try it again.

Gerry

[Laurent Rineau]

On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:44:19 Gerry Reno wrote:
>  Hi Valent,
>    I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my
>  desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like
>  beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource
>  when it was running trying to do this. 
+1

-- 
Laurent Rineau
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LaurentRineau

[Valent Turkovic]

On 7/3/07, Laurent Rineau <laurent.rineau__fedora(a)normalesup.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:44:19 Gerry Reno wrote:
>  > Hi Valent,
>  >   I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my
>  > desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like
>  > beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource
>  > when it was running trying to do this.
>
>  +1 
Why don't you engage a little of your time and track which files cause
this problem. I also have thousands of files and I don't see any
performance issues using beagle. If you would contribute and get
involved with hunting these bugs you experience than we all would
benefit.
I'm volunteering my time and my other resources to fixing beagle bugs
- but I just don't experience any since Fedora Core 5 (then there were
plenty of bugs). If you find which files are causing you problems
please mail them to me and I'll report bugs and work with beagle team
to fix them.

There.

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[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On 7/3/07, Laurent Rineau
> <laurent.rineau__fedora(a)normalesup.org&gt; wrote:
> > On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:44:19 Gerry Reno wrote:
> > > Hi Valent,
> > >   I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my
> > > desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like
> > > beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource
> > > when it was running trying to do this.
> >
> > +1
>  
>  Why don't you engage a little of your time and track which files cause
>  this problem. I also have thousands of files and I don't see any
>  performance issues using beagle. If you would contribute and get
>  involved with hunting these bugs you experience than we all would
>  benefit.
>  I'm volunteering my time and my other resources to fixing beagle bugs
>  - but I just don't experience any since Fedora Core 5 (then there were
>  plenty of bugs). If you find which files are causing you problems
>  please mail them to me and I'll report bugs and work with beagle team
>  to fix them.
>  
>  There.
>   
I think we all appreciate that you do take the time and fix beagle right
up so that one day we may all reconsider using beagle and have it
installed and enabled by default.

However, just because you do take that time doesn't mean we all have to.
Some of us may just take enough time to yum -y remove \*beagle\*, like
me, and that's all they ever do with beagle.

In fact, I'll yum install the latest and greatest beagle now, and see if
it consumes what I find to be too much CPU during the initial indexing.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  In fact, I'll yum install the latest and greatest beagle now, and
> see if
>  it consumes what I find to be too much CPU during the initial indexing.
>   
Replying to myself, I see my ~/rpmbuild (which I /happily/ use as an
archive) is being indexed with:

/usr/lib/rpm/rpmq -q --package --queryformat [%{*:xml}?] /path/to/rpm

Apparently it's threaded, because this one happily consuming 100% CPU,
happily locking up my funky beryl desktop. Then it seems beagle-helper
catches some output because it gets too excited and happily consumes
like 20% CPU next to the 100-20% CPU being consumed by the other happy
process.

Thanks for the reminder, sometime in the future I'll try again.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:40 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  Replying to myself, I see my ~/rpmbuild (which I /happily/ use as an
>  archive) is being indexed with:
>  
>  /usr/lib/rpm/rpmq -q --package --queryformat [%{*:xml}?] /path/to/rpm
>  
>  Apparently it's threaded, because this one happily consuming 100% CPU,
>  happily locking up my funky beryl desktop. Then it seems beagle-helper
>  catches some output because it gets too excited and happily consumes
>  like 20% CPU next to the 100-20% CPU being consumed by the other happy
>  process.
>  
>  Thanks for the reminder, sometime in the future I'll try again.  
Please look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8P_X8UK2fQ

is the use-case you are having really a bug? Beagle has to index files
in order to make desktop search possible. Every process that actually
does something uses 100% of the cpu - only issue is how well it plays
with the desktiop. Beagle should be running a high NICE so it shouldn't
impact your desktop experience while it indexes files...
To me your experience with beagle just shows that beagle is working and
it doesn't show that beagle is buggy and kills your system.

[Laurent Rineau]

On Wednesday 04 July 2007 12:08:41 Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:40 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  > Replying to myself, I see my ~/rpmbuild (which I /happily/ use as an
>  > archive) is being indexed with:
>  >
>  > /usr/lib/rpm/rpmq -q --package --queryformat [%{*:xml}?] /path/to/rpm
>  >
>  > Apparently it's threaded, because this one happily consuming 100% CPU,
>  > happily locking up my funky beryl desktop. Then it seems beagle-helper
>  > catches some output because it gets too excited and happily consumes
>  > like 20% CPU next to the 100-20% CPU being consumed by the other happy
>  > process.
>  >
>  > Thanks for the reminder, sometime in the future I'll try again.
>
>  Please look at this video:
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8P_X8UK2fQ
>
>  is the use-case you are having really a bug? Beagle has to index files
>  in order to make desktop search possible. Every process that actually
>  does something uses 100% of the cpu - only issue is how well it plays
>  with the desktiop. Beagle should be running a high NICE so it shouldn't
>  impact your desktop experience while it indexes files...
>  To me your experience with beagle just shows that beagle is working and
>  it doesn't show that beagle is buggy and kills your system. 
Exhibiting one case where does things nicely is not a justification.

On my desktop, Beagle is regularly browsing my files. I am not even sure that 
is has indexed all my documents, even if I am using it for six months.

I regularly (about once a week) need to trigger beagle-shutdown when my load 
is high, even though the beagle daemon has nice=19. You can blame the kernel 
scheduler, perhaps.

-- 
Laurent Rineau
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LaurentRineau

[Andy Green]

Laurent Rineau wrote:

> > is the use-case you are having really a bug? Beagle has to index
> files
> > in order to make desktop search possible. Every process that actually
> > does something uses 100% of the cpu - only issue is how well it plays 
>  Exhibiting one case where does things nicely is not a justification.
Yes... how many billions of CPU cycles should it take to strip some
plain text out of a PDF?  Maybe the fault isn't with Beagle but a child
process but the result in front of the user is the same.

Besides the even bigger problem with Beagle is it pulls in Mono, you
need a new language to index files now?

-Andy

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le Jeu 5 juillet 2007 11:23, Andy Green a écrit :

>  Yes... how many billions of CPU cycles should it take to strip some
>  plain text out of a PDF? 
Indexers such as beagle often have pathological behaviour when
processing documents like .pdfs, because they do not write their own
text strippers but reuse filters designed to preserve document
structure & formatting.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:40 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> > Replying to myself, I see my ~/rpmbuild (which I /happily/ use as an
> > archive) is being indexed with:
> >
> > /usr/lib/rpm/rpmq -q --package --queryformat [%{*:xml}?] /path/to/rpm
> >
> > Apparently it's threaded, because this one happily consuming 100% CPU,
> > happily locking up my funky beryl desktop. Then it seems beagle-helper
> > catches some output because it gets too excited and happily consumes
> > like 20% CPU next to the 100-20% CPU being consumed by the other happy
> > process.
> >
> > Thanks for the reminder, sometime in the future I'll try again. 
>  
>  Please look at this video:
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8P_X8UK2fQ
>   
No.

>  is the use-case you are having really a bug? 
Yes. If not a bug, it's a feature that makes me not use beagle.

 Beagle has to index files
>  in order to make desktop search possible. Every process that
> actually
>  does something uses 100% of the cpu - only issue is how well it plays
>  with the desktiop. Beagle should be running a high NICE so it shouldn't
>  impact your desktop experience while it indexes files...
>  To me your experience with beagle just shows that beagle is working and
>  it doesn't show that beagle is buggy and kills your system.
>   
Fine. We have different opinions.

If beagle is unable to nice/renice the child processes it launches then
that is a blocker for me. If it's installed I'll remove it.

Regardless of whether one of us thinks it's either a bug or a feature:
You requested someone to show you how beagle doesn't work for anyone.
I've given you my use case. Knock yourself out.

EOF

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Valent Turkovic]

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 11:23 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  Fine. We have different opinions.
>  
>  If beagle is unable to nice/renice the child processes it launches
>  then
>  that is a blocker for me. If it's installed I'll remove it.
>  
>  Regardless of whether one of us thinks it's either a bug or a feature:
>  You requested someone to show you how beagle doesn't work for anyone.
>  I've given you my use case. Knock yourself out.  
Thank you all for your input. Because this thread got mostly talked
about beagle I'll start a new one. But a really short one.
And I'll need the precious info and your usage cases. 

Thank you Jeroen and all of you.

[alcapcom]

Valent Turkovic a écrit :
>  I'm volunteering my time and my other resources to fixing beagle
> bugs
>  - but I just don't experience any since Fedora Core 5 (then there were
>  plenty of bugs).  
I you will see beagle slowdown your whole system. Just place some big
pdf files in a directory and index it, you will see pdf2html or so take
the whole CPU time and you Desktop entirely no usable without killing
these processes. I was really happy to no have to yum remove \*beagle\*
on F7.

Cheers,
Alphonse

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:40 +0200, Alphonse Van Assche wrote:
>  I you will see beagle slowdown your whole system. Just place some
> big
>  pdf files in a directory and index it, you will see pdf2html or so
>  take
>  the whole CPU time and you Desktop entirely no usable without killing
>  these processes. I was really happy to no have to yum remove \*beagle
>  \*
>  on F7.  
I tested it and here are the results:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8P_X8UK2fQ

You can see that pdf file of 5MB does start to use CPU at 100% but it
has high nice value so it doesn't slow down my desktop. 
I believe this is not a bug, but a feature :)

[alcapcom]

Valent Turkovic a écrit :
>  On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:40 +0200, Alphonse Van Assche wrote:
> > I you will see beagle slowdown your whole system. Just place some big
> > pdf files in a directory and index it, you will see pdf2html or so
> > take
> > the whole CPU time and you Desktop entirely no usable without killing
> > these processes. I was really happy to no have to yum remove \*beagle
> > \*
> > on F7. 
>  
>  I tested it and here are the results:
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8P_X8UK2fQ
>  
>  You can see that pdf file of 5MB does start to use CPU at 100% but it
>  has high nice value so it doesn't slow down my desktop. 
>  I believe this is not a bug, but a feature :)
>   
Sorry but your test is absolutely not correct. I have say *some* big pdf
and the only pdf that you test is a text only pdf. In the real live many
pdf contain images too. Another think that I have never understand is
why beagle re-index always files that are already indexed.

It was not in my dream that beagle was taking 100% of my CPU and make my
system *totally* unusable and BTW I have never have so a problem when I
build big RPM package that take 100% of the CPU. For example, when I
build Xgl (a really big package) I can continue to browse, read mails
with Thunderbird and coding in Eclipse on the other hand when beagle
take 100% of the CPU I can difficultly open a gnome-terminal to kill him.

If you are sure that everybody here say nothing true about beagle, It
seems to me like a not constructive discuss and IMHO not the good way of
doing if you will convince peoples here.

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 15:12 +0200, Alphonse Van Assche wrote:
>  Sorry but your test is absolutely not correct. I have say *some* big
>  pdf
>  and the only pdf that you test is a text only pdf. In the real live
>  many
>  pdf contain images too. Another think that I have never understand is
>  why beagle re-index always files that are already indexed.  
Can you please provide a link for a really big pdf so I can to some
testing.

Thank you.

Valent.

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 15:12 +0200, Alphonse Van Assche wrote:
>  with Thunderbird and coding in Eclipse on the other hand when beagle
>  take 100% of the CPU I can difficultly open a gnome-terminal to kill
>  him.  
why not issue beagle-shutdown?

[alcapcom]

Valent Turkovic a écrit :
>  On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 15:12 +0200, Alphonse Van Assche wrote:
> > with Thunderbird and coding in Eclipse on the other hand when beagle
> > take 100% of the CPU I can difficultly open a gnome-terminal to kill
> > him. 
>  
>  why not issue beagle-shutdown?
>   
Kill vs shutdown, why... same result ;-). The problem is that beagle is
too "possessive" with the CPU and dislike to share him... not nice even
with a renice :-).

[Valent Turkovic]

On 7/3/07, Laurent Rineau <laurent.rineau__fedora(a)normalesup.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:44:19 Gerry Reno wrote:
>  > Hi Valent,
>  >   I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my
>  > desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like
>  > beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource
>  > when it was running trying to do this.
>
>  +1
>  
Show me the money! Or put you money where your mouth is. Or any other
slogan fits here nicely.

Show us exactly where you have issues with beagle and with which files
and help us all fix these bugs. Complaining only doesn't help anybody.

-- 
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241
Skype: valent.turkovic

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On 7/3/07, Laurent Rineau
> <laurent.rineau__fedora(a)normalesup.org&gt; wrote:
> > On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:44:19 Gerry Reno wrote:
> > > Hi Valent,
> > >   I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my
> > > desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like
> > > beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource
> > > when it was running trying to do this.
> >
> > +1
> >
>  
>  Show me the money! Or put you money where your mouth is. Or any other
>  slogan fits here nicely.
>  
>  Show us exactly where you have issues with beagle and with which files
>  and help us all fix these bugs. Complaining only doesn't help anybody.
>   
Turning evil on your (potential) userbase doesn't help anybody either.

Jeroen "The problem is choice" van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:20 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  Turning evil on your (potential) userbase doesn't help anybody
> either. 
I'm just a fedora user, I don't have a userbase, yet :)
I'm not a beagle devel, just one concerned fedora desktop user.

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:20 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> > Turning evil on your (potential) userbase doesn't help anybody either.
>  
>  I'm just a fedora user, I don't have a userbase, yet :)
>  I'm not a beagle devel, just one concerned fedora desktop user.
>   
As an advocate for beagle you pretty much have a user base (maybe it's a
language barrier on my side and I should have said 'an audience').

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[David Nielsen]

tir, 03 07 2007 kl. 16:09 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
>  On 7/3/07, Laurent Rineau
> <laurent.rineau__fedora(a)normalesup.org&gt; wrote:
>  > On Tuesday 03 July 2007 15:44:19 Gerry Reno wrote:
>  > > Hi Valent,
>  > >   I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my
>  > > desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like
>  > > beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource
>  > > when it was running trying to do this.
>  >
>  > +1
>  >
>  
>  Show me the money! Or put you money where your mouth is. Or any other
>  slogan fits here nicely.
>  
>  Show us exactly where you have issues with beagle and with which files
>  and help us all fix these bugs. Complaining only doesn't help anybody. 
Upstream Beagle already has a great guide to helping you, help them spot
problem areas, I would suggest reading that.

I think Beagles biggest problem is that it's not really useful, it's not
integrated anywhere, it's just a search service right now. Places like
your media player e.g. could have their database populated in a dynamic
manner using technology like Beagle but currently they don't. Even if we
enabled Beagle by default we would not gain a lot and it's still
suffering from a number of issues (such as not even surviving 5 secs on
Development currently).

- David

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 17:20 +0200, David Nielsen wrote:
>  Upstream Beagle already has a great guide to helping you, help them
>  spot
>  problem areas, I would suggest reading that. 
I'll check that out.

>  I think Beagles biggest problem is that it's not really useful,
> it's
>  not
>  integrated anywhere, it's just a search service right now. Places like
>  your media player e.g. could have their database populated in a
>  dynamic
>  manner using technology like Beagle but currently they don't.  
Can you please explain how would that work in a little more detail? I
get great benefit from beagle searching my mail, web pages and local
documents... how would I benefit from beagle integration to amarok or
audacious or some other player I use? I don't see what beagle would do
there so please explain.

>  Even if we
>  enabled Beagle by default we would not gain a lot and it's still
>  suffering from a number of issues (such as not even surviving 5 secs
>  on
>  Development currently).  
I have tested and proved it works great on development, see here for
more details:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245521
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217031

[David Nielsen]

ons, 04 07 2007 kl. 10:26 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:

>  Can you please explain how would that work in a little more detail?
> I
>  get great benefit from beagle searching my mail, web pages and local
>  documents... how would I benefit from beagle integration to amarok or
>  audacious or some other player I use? I don't see what beagle would do
>  there so please explain. 
Okay imagine you down.. acquire a new album, with beagle indexing this
it would automatically be added to your library, you could move the
files around and the library would not break. 

Okay, lemme give you an example, I recently ripped some The Smashing
Pumpkins albums, I did so outside of my media player and I forgot to
double check that the metadata was correct. Then I imported the
resulting flac files into Banshee and notice that some of the albums
were labelled as "Smashing Pumpkins" so I corrected that but the files
weren't moved into the same directory. So I moved them manually.. and
voila Banshee now looks for the files in the wrong dir.

With an indexed solution this would be a non issue, I could move my
files around like I wanted and have my library be consistent. 

This is just a simple use case for an index, you can do a lot of fun and
useful things with this type of technology that are more advanced. The
problem is that currently the technology isn't at the stage where any
applications are really relying on an index. Right now that means that
Beagle is basically a very handy way to search my massive archive of
mail, considering the current downsides one has to wonder if it's worth
enabling by default.

- David

[Valent Turkovic]

On 7/3/07, Gerry Reno <greno(a)verizon.net&gt; wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  >> There was a recent discussion on this topic and the decision was to
>  >> remove Beagle from the default install because for too many users Beagle
>  >> would suck up 100% CPU and leave the machine virtually unusable. See the
>  >> archives for details.  Once Beagle matures some more and causes fewer
>  >> problems like this having Beagle in the default install can be
>  >> reconsidered.
>  >>
>  >> Jeff
>  >>
>  >
>  > The beagle was disabled (I'm on bugzilla for that beagle bug and also
>  > I was active in discussions on mailing lists when that happened) but
>  > IMHO the reasoning that was for it to not be installed by default
>  > would make Fedora 7 look like Fedora Core 3 if it was applied to
>  > fedora as a whole and not only to beagle.
>  >
>  > I have substantially tested beagle on 7 different desktops and had
>  > ZERO problems. Also the bug in bugzilla is really vague. I have much
>  > more problems with other features in Fedora 7; like user switcher
>  > which, if you haven't used it, causes data losses and time losses.
>  > When other user logs in then after some time first X session just
>  > crashes taking all apps and all the work that has been going on there
>  > down with it! This is a MUCH more severe bug that beagle can produce
>  > and it is still installed by default on all Fedora 7 desktops. This is
>  > inconsistent. Either don't include any of new fetures that aren't
>  > rock-solid in Fedora 7, 8, 9, etc, or give us these great apps and
>  > iron the bugs out along the was. Fedora team should have left beagle
>  > installed an on by default and hunt down and squashed that bug.
>  >
>  > I contacted beagle maintainers for fedora and offered them my hand in
>  > testing if beagle is now good enough for prime time.
>  > here is the bugzilla link:
>  > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217031
>  >
>  Hi Valent,
>    I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my
>  desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would like
>  beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource
>  when it was running trying to do this.  At first I didn't know why
>  things were so sluggish and then 'top' showed beagle consuming
>  everything.  'beagle' needs to get some intelligent throttling and
>  perhaps just some bugs fixed before I'll try it again.
>
>  Gerry 
Why don't you engage a little of your time and track which files cause
this problem. I also have thousands of files and I don't see any
performance issues using beagle. If you would contribute and get
involved with hunting these bugs you experience than we all would
benefit.
I'm volunteering my time and my other resources to fixing beagle bugs
- but I just don't experience any since Fedora Core 5 (then there were
plenty of bugs). If you find which files are causing you problems
please mail them to me and I'll report bugs and work with beagle team
to fix them.

There.


-- 
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241
Skype: valent.turkovic

[Gerry Reno]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  Why don't you engage a little of your time and track which files cause
>  this problem. I also have thousands of files and I don't see any
>  performance issues using beagle. If you would contribute and get
>  involved with hunting these bugs you experience than we all would
>  benefit.
>  I'm volunteering my time and my other resources to fixing beagle bugs
>  - but I just don't experience any since Fedora Core 5 (then there were
>  plenty of bugs). If you find which files are causing you problems
>  please mail them to me and I'll report bugs and work with beagle team
>  to fix them.
>
>  There.
>
>  
Valent,
  Respectfully, I contribute a great deal of my deal to probably 30-40 
open source community projects.  Please do not be offended, but I have 
little interest in 'beagle'.  It's a nice-to-have but also a 
I-really-don't-miss-it if it's not there.  The problems that I had with 
beagle on desktops occurred on nearly every desktop that we had where it 
was running.  So this is not just isolated to my files or to some 
particular file that I have.  And many other people have had exactly the 
same experience so for those of you who are interested in working with 
beagle I would think it would be easy to develop a test data set of 
files that exhibits the problem and work from there.

Regards,
Gerry

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 10:33 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>  Valent,
>    Respectfully, I contribute a great deal of my deal to probably
>  30-40 
>  open source community projects.  Please do not be offended, but I
>  have 
>  little interest in 'beagle'.  It's a nice-to-have but also a 
>  I-really-don't-miss-it if it's not there.  The problems that I had
>  with 
>  beagle on desktops occurred on nearly every desktop that we had where
>  it 
>  was running.  So this is not just isolated to my files or to some 
>  particular file that I have.  And many other people have had exactly
>  the 
>  same experience so for those of you who are interested in working
>  with 
>  beagle I would think it would be easy to develop a test data set of 
>  files that exhibits the problem and work from there.
>  
>  Regards,
>  Gerry  
Gerry thank you for your valuable reply.

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 09:44 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
>  Hi Valent,
>    I have to agree with the decision to drop beagle as default.  On my 
>  desktop I have many thousands of files and documents that I would
>  like 
>  beagle to catalog but it was consuming huge amount of system resource 
>  when it was running trying to do this.  At first I didn't know why 
>  things were so sluggish and then 'top' showed beagle consuming 
>  everything.  'beagle' needs to get some intelligent throttling and 
>  perhaps just some bugs fixed before I'll try it again.
>  
>  Gerry  
Please check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8P_X8UK2fQ

[Rudolf Kastl]

2007/7/3, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  > There was a recent discussion on this topic and the decision was
> to
>  > remove Beagle from the default install because for too many users Beagle
>  > would suck up 100% CPU and leave the machine virtually unusable. See the
>  > archives for details.  Once Beagle matures some more and causes fewer
>  > problems like this having Beagle in the default install can be
>  > reconsidered.
>  >
>  > Jeff
>  >
>
>  The beagle was disabled (I'm on bugzilla for that beagle bug and also
>  I was active in discussions on mailing lists when that happened) but
>  IMHO the reasoning that was for it to not be installed by default
>  would make Fedora 7 look like Fedora Core 3 if it was applied to
>  fedora as a whole and not only to beagle.
>
>  I have substantially tested beagle on 7 different desktops and had
>  ZERO problems. Also the bug in bugzilla is really vague. I have much
>  more problems with other features in Fedora 7; like user switcher
>  which, if you haven't used it, causes data losses and time losses.
>  When other user logs in then after some time first X session just
>  crashes taking all apps and all the work that has been going on there
>  down with it! This is a MUCH more severe bug that beagle can produce
>  and it is still installed by default on all Fedora 7 desktops. This is
>  inconsistent. Either don't include any of new fetures that aren't
>  rock-solid in Fedora 7, 8, 9, etc, or give us these great apps and
>  iron the bugs out along the was. Fedora team should have left beagle
>  installed an on by default and hunt down and squashed that bug.
>
>  I contacted beagle maintainers for fedora and offered them my hand in
>  testing if beagle is now good enough for prime time.
>  here is the bugzilla link:
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217031
>
>  --
>  http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
>  linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
>  registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
>  ICQ: 2125241
>  Skype: valent.turkovic
>
>  --
>  fedora-devel-list mailing list
>  fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>  

grab a dualcore laptop with 2gb of ram and a 100gb sata drive

do svn checkouts until you have atleast a basic fedora system and 80gb
full (around 50gb sourcecode)

enable beagle then and tell me what happens if it starts to reindex...
for me the system becomes then unusable for you.

regards,
Rudolf Kastl

[Christopher Brown]

Hello Valent,

On 02/07/07, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  * NTFS support during installation 

+1

* Beagle and Deskbar installed by default


I'm afraid I also experience a RAM-rinsing with this installed. Google
Desktop, recently released under a proprietary license, is even buggier. I
have had it running for three days now and it has yet to complete its
indexing. /me remembers its beta. Hopefully this app along with others like
tracker will make the beagle team sort out the issues above - I think they
may have been resting on their laurels a little.

* Tomboy installed by default


Personally, I have never found the need for yellow stickies on my desktop.

* Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel


I can only guess this is a licensing issue a-la-iceweasel.

* Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live Help")


+1 although should this need a specific support channel?

* Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux thing" can do :)


+1 - I do not think that the default homepage in firefox is enough.

* a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop


I have no problems burning in fedora - what exactly is the issue you have
here?

Regards
Chris


-- 
http://www.chruz.com

[Valent Turkovic]

On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 16:05 +0100, Chris Brown wrote:
>  Hello Valent,
>  
>  On 02/07/07, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>          
>          * NTFS support during installation
>  
>  +1 
>  
>  
>          * Beagle and Deskbar installed by default
>  
>  I'm afraid I also experience a RAM-rinsing with this installed. Google
>  Desktop, recently released under a proprietary license, is even
>  buggier. I have had it running for three days now and it has yet to
>  complete its indexing. /me remembers its beta. Hopefully this app
>  along with others like tracker will make the beagle team sort out the
>  issues above - I think they may have been resting on their laurels a
>  little. 
On my system it consumes around 20MB or RAM. Is that a waste? I don't
thin so. So what if Google desktop for linux uses around 10MB, beagle is
much more integrated with linux desktop. I hope beagle gets to 10MB as
soon as possible, but 20MB is not that bad for the benefit of desktop
search it gives. 
My Firefox currently uses 152MB on my system with lost of tabs open,
Evolution 38MB, Azureus 75MB on a good day and around 150MB when it gets
going... OpenOffice Writer 38MB... and so on...



>          * Tomboy installed by default
>  
>  Personally, I have never found the need for yellow stickies on my
>  desktop.
>  
>  
>          * Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel
>  
>  I can only guess this is a licensing issue a-la-iceweasel.
>  
>  
>          * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live
>          Help")
>  
>  +1 although should this need a specific support channel?
>  
>  
>          * Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux thing" can
>          do :)
>  
>  +1 - I do not think that the default homepage in firefox is enough. 
>  
>  
>          * a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop
>  
>  I have no problems burning in fedora - what exactly is the issue you
>  have here?
>  
>  
>  Regards
>  Chris
>  
>  
>  
>  -- 
>  http://www.chruz.com 
>  -- 
>  fedora-devel-list mailing list
>  fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

[Valent Turkovic]

>          * Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel
>  
>  I can only guess this is a licensing issue a-la-iceweasel. 
Nope. Firefox icon is present on firefox shortcut in gnome menu.

>  
>          * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live
>          Help")
>  
>  +1 although should this need a specific support channel? 
I think so too.

>          * Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux
> thing" can
>          do :)
>  
>  +1 - I do not think that the default homepage in firefox is enough.  
Completely agree.

>          * a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop
>  
>  I have no problems burning in fedora - what exactly is the issue you
>  have here? 
I don't know anybody in Croatia that uses windows default app to burn
disks. It was mentioned that gnome burning is modeled by default MS
windows burning app. Everybody here uses Nero Burning Rom, or at least
80% of windows users. Maybe that is a local thing, but I believe that it
is also the case in the rest of the Europe and the US.

One thing also that I have observed is that users don't insert blank
cd/dvd first. First thing they do is to look for the burning app,
compile the list of files for burning and only then they insert bland
cd or dvd.

If you have some other experience with new users please share it with
us. It is easy to test this. Put some folder on the desktop and say to
your coworker, sister, brother or a friend to burn it to a blank CD
and watch what they do. Did you test for do this? I did and this is my
experience. That is why we need a better and more usable way to burn
data under fedora gnome desktop.

[Emmanuel Seyman]

* Valent Turkovic [04/07/2007 10:45] :
>  >         * Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel
>  > 
>  > I can only guess this is a licensing issue a-la-iceweasel.
>  
>  Nope. Firefox icon is present on firefox shortcut in gnome menu. 
The Firefox icon in the menu launches firefox.

The Web browser icon in the gnome panel lauches htmlview which in turn
launches whatever your favourite web browser is (the default is firefox
but that's easily changed) so I'm not sure changing the icon is justified.

Emmanuel

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 10:52 +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>  The Firefox icon in the menu launches firefox.
>  
>  The Web browser icon in the gnome panel lauches htmlview which in turn
>  launches whatever your favourite web browser is (the default is
>  firefox
>  but that's easily changed) so I'm not sure changing the icon is
>  justified.
>  
>  Emmanuel  
I understand you and see your logic, but can you also see how this
confuses users?  I believe that when default browsing app changes so
should the icon. 

Starting a default browser app is like a roulet - you see an icon but
you place bets before clicking it and then see what app starts after you
click it. It should be unambiguous which apps starts from just looking
at the icon. If it is firefox it should be firefox icon, if it is other
some other browser that the icon should be also changer to it's default
icon.

[Nicu Buculei]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  
>  Starting a default browser app is like a roulet - you see an icon but
>  you place bets before clicking it and then see what app starts after you 
Not at all, after a default install the icon will start Firefox and this 
does not change until you go to change the default manually (or unistall 
Firefox, if that was possible, but isn't)

>  click it. It should be unambiguous which apps starts from just
> looking
>  at the icon. If it is firefox it should be firefox icon, if it is other 
It is unambiguous: the default web browser is launched. This is a 
task-oriented philosophy instead of application-oriented.
In the same vein, the menu option titled "Word Processor" will launch 
OOo Writer and Movie Player will launch Totem, it is not a 
discrimination against Firefox.

>  some other browser that the icon should be also changer to it's
> default
>  icon. 
Keeping up with your YouTube links: 
http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/firefox_panel.gif

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Ray Van Dolson]

On Wed, Jul 04, 2007 at 01:22:29PM +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>   Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > Starting a default browser app is like a roulet - you see an icon but
>  > you place bets before clicking it and then see what app starts after you
>  
>   Not at all, after a default install the icon will start Firefox and this 
>   does not change until you go to change the default manually (or unistall 
>   Firefox, if that was possible, but isn't)
>  
>  > click it. It should be unambiguous which apps starts from just looking
>  > at the icon. If it is firefox it should be firefox icon, if it is other
>  
>   It is unambiguous: the default web browser is launched. This is a 
>   task-oriented philosophy instead of application-oriented.
>   In the same vein, the menu option titled "Word Processor" will launch OOo 
>   Writer and Movie Player will launch Totem, it is not a discrimination 
>   against Firefox.
>  
>  > some other browser that the icon should be also changer to it's default
>  > icon. 
Perhaps the htmlview icon could somehow be "symlinked" to the icon for
whichever browser is default.  So the user sees the Firefox icon .. or
Mozilla, or whichever they have configured as default.

Ray

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 10:50 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
>  Perhaps the htmlview icon could somehow be "symlinked" to
> the icon for
>  whichever browser is default.  So the user sees the Firefox icon .. or
>  Mozilla, or whichever they have configured as default.
>  
>  Ray
>   
Yes, a simple thing to do. Please consider this proposal.

[Rahul Sundaram]

Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 10:50 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
> > Perhaps the htmlview icon could somehow be "symlinked" to the icon for
> > whichever browser is default.  So the user sees the Firefox icon .. or
> > Mozilla, or whichever they have configured as default.
> >
> > Ray
> >
>  
>  Yes, a simple thing to do. Please consider this proposal. 
You got to file enhancements in bugzilla.redhat.com. A long mail with 
multiple points is likely to be lost with no action taken even you post 
to many lists and forums unnecessarily.

Rahul

[Matthias Clasen]

On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 02:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 10:50 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
>  >> Perhaps the htmlview icon could somehow be "symlinked" to the icon
> for
>  >> whichever browser is default.  So the user sees the Firefox icon .. or
>  >> Mozilla, or whichever they have configured as default.
>  >>
>  >> Ray
>  >>
>  > 
>  > Yes, a simple thing to do. Please consider this proposal.
>  
>  You got to file enhancements in bugzilla.redhat.com. A long mail with 
>  multiple points is likely to be lost with no action taken even you post 
>  to many lists and forums unnecessarily. 
And when you work on the patch to implement this you'll likely find that
it is not quite as simple as you think.

[Thufir]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:13:47 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:

>  Starting a default browser app is like a roulet - you see an icon
> but
>  you place bets before clicking it and then see what app starts after you
>  click it. It should be unambiguous which apps starts from just looking
>  at the icon. 
this is a taste issue.  I prefer firefox, but others may have a different 
preference.  I also prefer to not make things a hassle for those with 
different preferences.

Not everything can be one click automagical.

Having firefox as the default is an improvement, but why lock it down for 
others?

-Thufir

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 22:53 +0000, Thufir wrote:
>  this is a taste issue.  I prefer firefox, but others may have a
>  different 
>  preference.  I also prefer to not make things a hassle for those with 
>  different preferences. 
I'm not even suggesting anything like that.

>  Not everything can be one click automagical.
>  
>  Having firefox as the default is an improvement, but why lock it down
>  for 
>  others?
>  
>  -Thufir  
I'm not saying that.

If htmlview is launcher when you click on "Internet Browser" and it
checks which is the default browser than htmlview icon should also
change as you change preference in your browsers. That is only thing I
suggested.

What do you think about that?

[Emmanuel Seyman]

* Valent Turkovic [06/07/2007 09:25] :
>  If htmlview is launcher when you click on "Internet Browser" and it
>  checks which is the default browser than htmlview icon should also
>  change as you change preference in your browsers. That is only thing I
>  suggested.
>  
>  What do you think about that? 
I'm more in favour of the icon staying constant regardless of changes in
the user's choice, to be honest. I can easily see a user changing his choice
to test other browers and then not being able to find the icon again because
he has no idea what it looks like now.

Emmanuel

[Valent Turkovic]

On Fri, 2007-07-06 at 09:30 +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>  I'm more in favour of the icon staying constant regardless of
> changes
>  in
>  the user's choice, to be honest. I can easily see a user changing his
>  choice
>  to test other browers and then not being able to find the icon again
>  because
>  he has no idea what it looks like now.  
People would probaly spot the only icon that has changed...

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
>  * Valent Turkovic [04/07/2007 10:45] :
> >>         * Firefox to have it's original icon in gnome panel
> >>
> >> I can only guess this is a licensing issue a-la-iceweasel.
> > Nope. Firefox icon is present on firefox shortcut in gnome menu.
>  
>  The Firefox icon in the menu launches firefox.
>  
>  The Web browser icon in the gnome panel lauches htmlview which in turn
>  launches whatever your favourite web browser is (the default is firefox
>  but that's easily changed) so I'm not sure changing the icon is justified.
>   
I'm sure it's not, but the point was (I think), to have the icon change
under certain circumstances:

1) there is only one browser installed

2) preferences are changed

This way, the icon-change makes sense to me.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Valent Turkovic]

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 11:06 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  I'm sure it's not, but the point was (I think), to have the
> icon
>  change
>  under certain circumstances:
>  
>  1) there is only one browser installed
>  
>  2) preferences are changed
>  
>  This way, the icon-change makes sense to me.  
Yes, thank you. That was the meaning. Can this be done? I believe it is
a simple thing but a logical one to do.

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Montag, den 02.07.2007, 23:23 +0200 schrieb Valent Turkovic:
>  Hi,
>   
[snipped]
>  
>  * NTFS support during installation
>  there should be NTFS support built in to anaconda so that ntfs
>  partitions are automatically recognized and added to /etc/fstab - and
>  that users are given an option to make them read-only or to be mounted
>  in read-write mode. 
How exactly should this happen? Another screen with questions like: "Do
you want to mount your NTFS volumes? y/N" and "Do you want your NFTS
volumes to be mounted read only? Y/n"? I don't think bothering people
with more questions is necessary or useful.

You already have the opportunity to configure NTFS mounts during
install. Usually I tell anaconda/disc druid to mount my Windows
partition to /mnt/windows. Now that we have ntfs-3g in default install,
you have r/w access when you first boot your computer after install. 

For me this is enough. Personally I don't want partitions to be mounted
automatically somewhere without being asked. I want control over my
installation and I like to have a choice.

>  * Beagle and Deskbar installed by default
>  these applications make all the difference for an desktop user between
>  an "OK" user experience and "wonderful" user experience. 
This topic has already been beaten to death on this list before you
raised it again. We did have beagle in the default install in FC6 and it
was decided to take it out for F7. Please be so kind as to search the
archives or at least read the Fedora Weekly News:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue88#head-7fdee0a1251926827abf631c70...

BTW: If you speak German I suggest you search for beagle @
fedoraforum.de: 37 hits and 35 of them are complainants.

>  * Tomboy installed by default
>  - I have all the same arguments here as I do for Beagle and Deskbar 
deskbar and tomboy might be worth discussing, but I don't think many
people are using them. So I'd say they should stay out.

>  * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live
> Help") 
Although this is a good idea I'm not sure how to achieve this
technically: Yes, there is an IRC url scheme [1], but I'm not sure if
all desktops are able to open IRC links. Other questions are: What
application should be used to open this link and how to we make sure
this application really is installed?

>  * Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux thing"
> can do :) 
Personally I hate "example" folders. "Example
Pictures/Music/Playlists/Whatever" is the first thing I remove on a
fresh installed Windows.

>  * a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop
>  Put any new user in front of fresh Fedora 7 desktop and ask them to
>  burn some files to CD or DVD - any watch them as they wiggle
>  unpleasantly as they can't find any burning app under gnome desktop.
>  Puting a link for nautils burner under "Places / CD - DVD Recoder"
>  doesn't help. 
Really? I have been installing computers with fedora for a while now and
giving them to my customers. _No_one_ has ever asked me how to burn
CDs/DVDs. I have to admit that starting rhythmbox to burn audio discs is
not really intuitive but it works. So IMO we shouldn't add duplicate
functionality to the default install.

Ok, that was just my 2 ¢

Christoph

[1] http://www.w3.org/Addressing/draft-mirashi-url-irc-01.txt

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 14:49 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  How exactly should this happen? Another screen with questions like:
>  "Do
>  you want to mount your NTFS volumes? y/N" and "Do you want your NFTS
>  volumes to be mounted read only? Y/n"? I don't think bothering people
>  with more questions is necessary or useful. 
Offcource not. The devels can choose whic is technically better default
(RO or RW) and only have an option in advanced mode to change it, or
after the install of Fedora via some gui tool perhaps?

>  You already have the opportunity to configure NTFS mounts during
>  install. Usually I tell anaconda/disc druid to mount my Windows
>  partition to /mnt/windows. Now that we have ntfs-3g in default
>  install,
>  you have r/w access when you first boot your computer after install.  
Are you sure? I wouldn't be writing this if it worked. AFAIK you can't
choose NTFS partitions in anaconda during the partitioning and give them
mount points. NTFS partitons are grayed out and can't be even selected.
If I'm wrong please correct me.



>  > * Beagle and Deskbar installed by default
>  > these applications make all the difference for an desktop user
>  between
>  > an "OK" user experience and "wonderful" user experience.
>  
>  This topic has already been beaten to death on this list before you
>  raised it again. We did have beagle in the default install in FC6 and
>  it
>  was decided to take it out for F7. Please be so kind as to search the
>  archives or at least read the Fedora Weekly News:
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue88#head-7fdee0a1251926827abf631c70...
My point is that maintainer of the package said that he doesn't have
time to work with this package and it is easier for him to remove it
that look at some non-trivial problems.

>  BTW: If you speak German I suggest you search for beagle @
>  fedoraforum.de: 37 hits and 35 of them are complainants. 
Well I would argue that the people who remove it are a minority, not the
other way around. I have seen beagle installed on multiple systems and
it is as unobtrusive as an app can be. I have tested it on Fedora Core6,
multiple Fedora 7 installations and now I'm testing it on Rawhide. So I
have extensive experience with beagle.

Only saying "me too" to a forum, bugzilla entry or on a mailing
list makes beagle look bad but only because the majority of people who
don't have issues with beagle don't even go to these mailing lists or to
bugzilla. If you have tested beagle on multiple systems and find it
causing problems then please excuse me - show us your test results and
that is ok.

Has anybody of the 35 people on fedoraforum.de looked at the actual
problem with beagle and saw where or why they have some issues?

>  > * Tomboy installed by default
>  > - I have all the same arguments here as I do for Beagle and Deskbar
>  
>  deskbar and tomboy might be worth discussing, but I don't think many
>  people are using them. So I'd say they should stay out. 
It depends what Fedora is trying to do. It if it is trying to be a linux
Desktop and not only for us who are geeks then it should include nice
apps by deafult - any maybe put some promo video material that explains
what each app does.

>  > * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get Live
> Help")
>  
>  Although this is a good idea I'm not sure how to achieve this
>  technically: Yes, there is an IRC url scheme [1], but I'm not sure if
>  all desktops are able to open IRC links. Other questions are: What
>  application should be used to open this link and how to we make sure
>  this application really is installed? 
Why IRC url? It can be a shortcut to a script. At least there are
multiple choices. Devels should make this choice, I trust them. Do you
see some actual problem here?

>  > * Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux
> thing" can do :)
>  
>  Personally I hate "example" folders. "Example
>  Pictures/Music/Playlists/Whatever" is the first thing I remove on a
>  fresh installed Windows. 
Gnome also comes with these folders, I dislike them in Gnome also.
You are confusing examples folders from windows and a much better
example from Ubuntu example folder (and that is not in plural). If you
haven't seen it please boot up any live ubuntu disc to see what it is
all about.

>  > * a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop
>  > Put any new user in front of fresh Fedora 7 desktop and ask them to
>  > burn some files to CD or DVD - any watch them as they wiggle
>  > unpleasantly as they can't find any burning app under gnome desktop.
>  > Puting a link for nautils burner under "Places / CD - DVD Recoder"
>  > doesn't help.
>  
>  Really? I have been installing computers with fedora for a while now
>  and
>  giving them to my customers. _No_one_ has ever asked me how to burn
>  CDs/DVDs.  
Do they burn discs? Do they even have burners? Do they even know they
have a burning option?
Have you asked your customer to burn a CD or a DVD and see what he/she
does? Or you have had to teach them to use rhythmbox and gnome burning
tool because they didn't know how to use it by them selves?

>  I have to admit that starting rhythmbox to burn audio discs is
>  not really intuitive but it works.  
And that is what I'm talking about! It has to be intuitive or it doesn't
float.

>  So IMO we shouldn't add duplicate
>  functionality to the default install. 
There is no duplication if you add only a shortcut for gnome burner
"burn:///" under gnome "Applications" menu instead of being only in
"Places" menue - which is really not intuitive.

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Mittwoch, den 04.07.2007, 15:17 +0200 schrieb Valent Turkovic:
>  On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 14:49 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  > How exactly should this happen? Another screen with questions like:
>  > "Do
>  > you want to mount your NTFS volumes? y/N" and "Do you want your NFTS
>  > volumes to be mounted read only? Y/n"? I don't think bothering people
>  > with more questions is necessary or useful.
>  
>  Offcource not. The devels can choose whic is technically better default
>  (RO or RW) and only have an option in advanced mode to change it, 
What advanced mode are you talking about? AFAIK we don't have an
advanced mode. There's no such thing as "linux expert".

>   or
>  after the install of Fedora via some gui tool perhaps? 
But in the end it comes out to these two possibilities:
1. Do it automatically: Something that not all users like. I'd like to
have control over what a the installation does.
2. Bother people with another question: No matter if it is during
install or in firstboot, this sucks.

>  > You already have the opportunity to configure NTFS mounts
> during
>  > install. Usually I tell anaconda/disc druid to mount my Windows
>  > partition to /mnt/windows. Now that we have ntfs-3g in default
>  > install,
>  > you have r/w access when you first boot your computer after install. 
>  
>  Are you sure? I wouldn't be writing this if it worked. AFAIK you can't
>  choose NTFS partitions in anaconda during the partitioning and give them
>  mount points. NTFS partitons are grayed out and can't be even selected.
>  If I'm wrong please correct me. 
I just looked it up and you are correct. Sorry, I could have sworn that
it was possible.

So IMO all there needs to be is possibility to give NTFS partitions a
mount point, the rest should be done by the users. And I don't think
this needs to be enabled by default, we could do this like we do with
xfs for example.

>  > > * Beagle and Deskbar installed by default
>  > > these applications make all the difference for an desktop user
>  > between
>  > > an "OK" user experience and "wonderful" user experience.
>  > 
>  > This topic has already been beaten to death on this list before you
>  > raised it again. We did have beagle in the default install in FC6 and
>  > it
>  > was decided to take it out for F7. Please be so kind as to search the
>  > archives or at least read the Fedora Weekly News:
>  >
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue88#head-7fdee0a1251926827abf631c70...
>  
>  My point is that maintainer of the package said that he doesn't have
>  time to work with this package and it is easier for him to remove it
>  that look at some non-trivial problems. 
If this was the only problem I'm sure we would have already solved it by
now.

>  > BTW: If you speak German I suggest you search for beagle @
>  > fedoraforum.de: 37 hits and 35 of them are complainants.
>  
>  Well I would argue that the people who remove it are a minority, not the
>  other way around. 
35 of 37 of doesn't look like a minority to me. ;) Most of the problems
are like "My computer is horribly slow", "My computer locks up" or
"My
laptop battery is empty so much faster now". And most of them are solved
with "yum remove beagle".

>  I have seen beagle installed on multiple systems and
>  it is as unobtrusive as an app can be. I have tested it on Fedora Core6,
>  multiple Fedora 7 installations and now I'm testing it on Rawhide. So I
>  have extensive experience with beagle. 
> From what I see from bugzilla [1] you have been testing it on a
> machine 
with 1536 MB RAM. There are at least 6 search processes running with
2.6% mem each. This comes out to ~ 240 MB in total. And now think about
the people, who have only 512 MB RAM installed.

>  Only saying "me too" to a forum, bugzilla entry or on a
> mailing
>  list makes beagle look bad but only because the majority of people who
>  don't have issues with beagle don't even go to these mailing lists or to
>  bugzilla. 
I think the "me too"-people are not included, I only counted the threads
but not the people. It's most likely that there is a large number of
people who had the same symptoms, searched the forum and followed the
advice to remove beagle without writing another "me too" comment.

>   If you have tested beagle on multiple systems and find it
>  causing problems then please excuse me - show us your test results and
>  that is ok.
>  
>  Has anybody of the 35 people on fedoraforum.de looked at the actual
>  problem with beagle and saw where or why they have some issues? 
You have to decide from which point of view your are talking. From a
developer's point of view you are right: Users should file bugs,
investigate the problem, do testing and troubleshooting to help beagle
to improve. But from a users point of view, "yum remove beagle" is the
answer in most cases.

Most of the time your point of view is the user's, but now you suddenly
switch to the developers sight. In your perspective users often are to
stupid do even the most trivial tasks (like to install the applications
they need with pirut), and now you expect them to do in depth bug
hunting? That's not logical. 

BTW: Many of the developers say beagle simply is doomed, because it's
written in mono. It's a failure of design itself.

>  > > * Tomboy installed by default
>  > > - I have all the same arguments here as I do for Beagle and Deskbar
>  > 
>  > deskbar and tomboy might be worth discussing, but I don't think many
>  > people are using them. So I'd say they should stay out.
>  
>  It depends what Fedora is trying to do. It if it is trying to be a linux
>  Desktop and not only for us who are geeks then it should include nice
>  apps by deafult - any maybe put some promo video material that explains
>  what each app does. 
As I said above: On the one hand you are arguing users are not able to
find out what an application does, on the other hand you expect them to
do serious bug hunting? So what's your target audience then?

>  > > * Desktop shortcut for joining Fedora IRC (aka "Get
> Live Help")
>  > 
>  > Although this is a good idea I'm not sure how to achieve this
>  > technically: Yes, there is an IRC url scheme [1], but I'm not sure if
>  > all desktops are able to open IRC links. Other questions are: What
>  > application should be used to open this link and how to we make sure
>  > this application really is installed?
>  
>  Why IRC url? It can be a shortcut to a script. At least there are
>  multiple choices. Devels should make this choice, I trust them. Do you
>  see some actual problem here? 
I'm afraid there needs to be a bunch of if-else-statements to cover
every IRC client we ship. Maybe you can give us more details about how
the sabayon guys have covered this?

>  > > * Desktop folder with examples of what "this linux
> thing" can do :)
>  > 
>  > Personally I hate "example" folders. "Example
>  > Pictures/Music/Playlists/Whatever" is the first thing I remove on a
>  > fresh installed Windows.
>  
>  Gnome also comes with these folders, I dislike them in Gnome also.
>  You are confusing examples folders from windows and a much better
>  example from Ubuntu example folder (and that is not in plural). 
No, you are confusing an "examples" folder with xdg-user-dirs. This is
something completely different.

>  > > * a working Burning app for Fedora Gnome desktop
>  > > Put any new user in front of fresh Fedora 7 desktop and ask them to
>  > > burn some files to CD or DVD - any watch them as they wiggle
>  > > unpleasantly as they can't find any burning app under gnome desktop.
>  > > Puting a link for nautils burner under "Places / CD - DVD Recoder"
>  > > doesn't help.
>  > 
>  > Really? I have been installing computers with fedora for a while now
>  > and
>  > giving them to my customers. _No_one_ has ever asked me how to burn
>  > CDs/DVDs. 
>  
>  Do they burn discs? Do they even have burners? Do they even know they
>  have a burning option? 
Erm, I guess if I sell them a computer with DVD burner but without the
necessary software to burn I would have heard _lots_ of complainants. ;)

>  Have you asked your customer to burn a CD or a DVD and see what
> he/she
>  does? 
Today a customer handed over his laptop to me in order to upgrade it to
F7. "Don't worry about the files," he said "I have backed up
everything
onto DVD." So I guess my customers know that they have the ability to
burn discs.

>  Or you have had to teach them to use rhythmbox and gnome burning
>  tool because they didn't know how to use it by them selves? 
No, I did not have to teach them but only tell them to launch rhythmbox.

>  > I have to admit that starting rhythmbox to burn audio discs is
>  > not really intuitive but it works. 
>  
>  And that is what I'm talking about! It has to be intuitive or it doesn't
>  float. 
I remember the "shiny desktop" thread where you said that we should
learn from Apple. By default the only way to burn an audio disc in MacOS
is to use iTunes. Same in Windows with it's Mediaplayer BTW.
As I said before: It's not really intuitive for audio, but if there is
one lesson we should learn from other OSes it IMHO is: No duplicate
functionality in the base install.

>  > So IMO we shouldn't add duplicate
>  > functionality to the default install.
>  
>  There is no duplication if you add only a shortcut for gnome burner
>  "burn:///" under gnome "Applications" menu instead of being only in
>  "Places" menue - which is really not intuitive. 
For most of my customers it is. Everything they see in nautilus first of
all is a "place" for them but not an "application" (of course
nautilus
itself is an app, too).

Chris

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217031#c26

[Thufir]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:49:44 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:

>  Although this is a good idea I'm not sure how to achieve this
>  technically: Yes, there is an IRC url scheme [1], but I'm not sure if
>  all desktops are able to open IRC links. Other questions are: What
>  application should be used to open this link and how to we make sure
>  this application really is installed? 
I would really like this for a rescue situation, so that I don't have to 
register nick's and muck around trying to remember my nick and password.  
For total newbies, it'd be good too.  I imagine that it wouldn't that 
significant of a burden.

Over on the user list, the OP mentioned Sabayon doing this.

Pidgin is in the live cd and would work fine for this, to my knowledge.  
It would have to be something in the live cd. I see it more as a live-cd 
thing rather than necessary on an actual install.



-Thufir