Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Andrew Rist]

We've been following the discussions to replace MySQL with MariaDB in 
Fedora, and would like to provide additional data to help the community 
make the most informed decision.  Instead of switching**the default to 
MariaDB 5.5 we would like to propose that Fedora instead integrate MySQL 
5.6.  Switching to MariaDB would be going backwards, as their releases 
usually lag by at least 6 months. The differences between MariaDB 5.5 
and MySQL 5.6 are quite significant, with major improvements in both 
performance and stability [1] , as well as additional features and 
improved security [2].

With hundreds of development and QA engineers, including MySQL veterans 
and fresh talent, Oracle has produced the most stable, secure, and 
scalable releases of open source MySQL ever.  We are ready to help 
integrate and package the latest and best-tested version of MySQL in 
Fedora, including becoming the package maintainer (same as we do with 
Ubuntu).

15 years of contributing to the Linux kernel, 8 years developing InnoDB, 
and now 3 years leading MySQL represent a track record that speaks for 
itself.  Fedora's corporate sponsor and Oracle do compete in the Linux 
support business, but the database choice for Fedora should only focus 
on the merits and the quality of the MySQL code. If Fedora, as the 
mission statement says wants to "lead, and not follow" we recommend you 
keep MySQL,  the leading edge and highest quality open source database, 
as the default choice in your Linux distribution.

Andrew

[1] http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/articles/whats-new-in-mysql-5.6.html
[2] https://blogs.oracle.com/MySQL/entry/mysql_5_6_is_a

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2013-01-23 at 17:49 -0800, Andrew Rist wrote:
>  but the database choice for Fedora should only focus on the merits
> and
>  the quality of the MySQL code 
You may have read the mission statement, but you appear to have entirely
missed the four foundations:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations

of which 'Freedom' and 'Friends' are notably the first. The concerns
I've seen raised around MySQL are not related to the 'merits and the
quality of the...code' but to the freedom of the development community,
a topic that was noticeably absent from your mail.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Arthur G]

It would nice for MariaDB to obsolete MySQL and have an emulation
switch that allows it to masquerade as a MySQL installation as well as
operate in native mode. This will provide backwards compatability for
systems that use products that want to see a MySQL installation. This
will also provide a fresh canvass for new development that only wants
to talk/depend directly with native MariaDB. This will also provide
compatability for systems that want to do both.

Perhaps this MySQL emulation component for MariaDB can be delivered as
a separate RPM that "provides" mysql. This will make the original
MariaDB RPM cleaner.

Arthur.

On 24 January 2013 13:05, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Wed, 2013-01-23 at 17:49 -0800, Andrew Rist wrote:
> > but the database choice for Fedora should only focus on the merits and
> > the quality of the MySQL code
>
>  You may have read the mission statement, but you appear to have entirely
>  missed the four foundations:
>
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
>
>  of which 'Freedom' and 'Friends' are notably the first. The concerns
>  I've seen raised around MySQL are not related to the 'merits and the
>  quality of the...code' but to the freedom of the development community,
>  a topic that was noticeably absent from your mail.
>  --
>  Adam Williamson
>  Fedora QA Community Monkey
>  IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
>  http://www.happyassassin.net
>
>  --
>  devel mailing list
>  devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2013-01-24 at 16:24 +1100, Arthur G wrote:
>  It would nice for MariaDB to obsolete MySQL and have an emulation
>  switch that allows it to masquerade as a MySQL installation as well as
>  operate in native mode. This will provide backwards compatability for
>  systems that use products that want to see a MySQL installation. This
>  will also provide a fresh canvass for new development that only wants
>  to talk/depend directly with native MariaDB. This will also provide
>  compatability for systems that want to do both. 
This is already how MariaDB works. Testing will consist of making sure
it in fact _succeeds_ in acting as a drop-in replacement in all
real-world tested cases.

Not to sound mean, but could people please at least read up on the
feature page before contributing to this thread? There's a lot of
noise...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Andrew Rist]

On 1/23/2013 6:05 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  On Wed, 2013-01-23 at 17:49 -0800, Andrew Rist wrote:
> > but the database choice for Fedora should only focus on the merits and
> > the quality of the MySQL code
>  You may have read the mission statement, but you appear to have entirely
>  missed the four foundations:
>
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
>
>  of which 'Freedom' and 'Friends' are notably the first. The concerns
>  I've seen raised around MySQL are not related to the 'merits and the
>  quality of the...code' but to the freedom of the development community,
>  a topic that was noticeably absent from your mail. 
Thanks to all for the comments. 
 Norvald and I offered to help package 
and provide technical information to inform Fedora's choices.   This 
hopefully covers "Friends", or friendly intent.   As for "Features"
and 
"First"  MySQL 5.6 is simply better, more performant and more stable, 
and we think the community will not be happy with an older and less 
stable fork of the code.   MariaDB is also going to continue to diverge, 
which is good reason to continue to provide both MySQL and MariaDB so 
your users can make the choice of which to use.

When it comes to "Freedom"....many companies working, contributing, and 
supporting open source codebases have information disclosure policies 
very similar to MySQL [1]. The code is still GPL and out there for 
everyone to check out [2]. Our commercial efforts around MySQL are the 
thing that allows us to staff up with hundreds of engineers writing all 
of this code, and this in turn translates directly to the new features 
and stability of the community edition.

Andrew

[1] 
http://web.archive.org/web/20120108120323/http://www.redhat.com/about/new...


[2] http://labs.mysql.com/

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Andrew Rist  wrote:

>  When it comes to "Freedom"....many companies working, contributing, and
>  supporting open source codebases have information disclosure policies very
>  similar to MySQL [1]. The code is still GPL and out there for everyone to
>  check out [2]. Our commercial efforts around MySQL are the thing that
>  allows us to staff up with hundreds of engineers writing all of this code,
>  and this in turn translates directly to the new features and stability of
>  the community edition.
>
>  Andrew
>
>  [1] http://web.archive.org/web/**20120108120323/http://www.**
>
> redhat.com/about/news/blog/**commitment-to-open/<http://web.archive.or...
>  [2] http://labs.mysql.com
>  

Just to be clear,  RHEL != Fedora.  Red Hat policy for RHEL kernel is not
acceptable to Fedora and Fedora kernel continues to have the patches split
out.  You cannot use that to defend MySQL policies here.  You can do
whatever you want to do for the MySQL "enterprise edition" which is a
commercial product but the community project should have transparency and
openness in how it handles bugs, security issues, test cases etc.  If you
are willing to commit to that,  that is a step forward.

Rahul

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Reindl Harald]

Am 25.01.2013 18:57, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>  Just to be clear,  RHEL != Fedora.  Red Hat policy for RHEL kernel is
> not acceptable to Fedora and Fedora kernel
>  continues to have the patches split out.  You cannot use that to defend MySQL policies
> here.  You can do whatever
>  you want to do for the MySQL "enterprise edition" which is a commercial product
> but the community project should
>  have transparency and openness in how it handles bugs, security issues, test cases etc. 
> If you are willing to
>  commit to that,  that is a step forward. 
this is all nice and fine

but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
applications may be certified for mysql

and yes you are unsopported to run them at all on Fedora
but run them additionally on a fork of mysql which maybe
more and more incompatible over the years you are out of
hope and have not anything from the subjective freedom

if there is no way to have both, mysqld AND mariadb Fedora
should do itself a favour and keep mysqld, not for now -
forever or as long not most other software supports mariadb
explicitly which is not the case now

has mysqld any technical problem which makes it unstable?
no it has not!

is mariadb supported from any software which does not for mysqld?
not it does not!

is mysqld opensource?
yes it is!

did we had enough subsystem changes the last few years?
yes - we had way too much for the time-window!

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Reindl Harald

>  if there is no way to have both, mysqld AND mariadb Fedora
>  should do itself a favour and keep mysqld, not for now -
>  forever or as long not most other software supports mariadb
>  explicitly which is not the case now
>  
It is very much possible to have them and that is already the case in
Fedora now.

Rahul

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Reindl Harald]

Am 26.01.2013 19:59, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>  On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Reindl Harald
>      if there is no way to have both, mysqld AND mariadb Fedora
>      should do itself a favour and keep mysqld, not for now -
>      forever or as long not most other software supports mariadb
>      explicitly which is not the case now
>  
>  It is very much possible to have them and that is already the case in Fedora now 
and even if any package in fedora is built this way

a operating systemd / distribution should not built for it's
own with the attitude "what does us bother software outside our
repos"?

this NIH syndrome is very very bad

typically a user see a operating system as base for running
applications, and this does not mean only the limited ones
coming with the OS itself

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


>  a operating systemd / distribution should not built for it's
>  own with the attitude "what does us bother software outside our
>  repos"?
>
>  this NIH syndrome is very very bad
>  
Both MySQL and MariaDB is available and neither was invented here and
either can be used as per your preference.  When use terms like NIH, make
sure they are actually applicable.


Rahul

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Reindl Harald]

Am 26.01.2013 21:14, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>      a operating systemd / distribution should not built for it's
>      own with the attitude "what does us bother software outside our
>      repos"?
>  
>      this NIH syndrome is very very bad
>  Both MySQL and MariaDB is available and neither was invented here and either can be used
> as per your preference. 
>  When use terms like NIH, make sure they are actually applicable. 
seems you did not understand what i said

NIH in context of the distributoon at all not a single package
means the sometimes snappy feedback with any software outside
the repos "we do not care" and there maybe software which works
with mysqld and does not bother for mariadb

and so - this thread is about REPLACE MYSQL

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Michael Scherer]

Le vendredi 25 janvier 2013 à 19:05 +0100, Reindl Harald a écrit :
>  
>  Am 25.01.2013 18:57, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>  > Just to be clear,  RHEL != Fedora.  Red Hat policy for RHEL kernel is not acceptable
> to Fedora and Fedora kernel
>  > continues to have the patches split out.  You cannot use that to defend MySQL
> policies here.  You can do whatever
>  > you want to do for the MySQL "enterprise edition" which is a commercial
> product but the community project should
>  > have transparency and openness in how it handles bugs, security issues, test cases
> etc.  If you are willing to
>  > commit to that,  that is a step forward.
>  
>  this is all nice and fine
>  
>  but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
>  applications may be certified for mysql 
If you take a look at the RHEL channels, you will see that RH is
perfectly able to offer packages not coming from Fedora and to support
them ( exemple, passenger for openshift, or jboss, cloudforms ). And
Oracle can perfectly offer mysql rpms for Fedora if you need them.

And again as Rahul said, RHEL != Fedora. 

If the Fedora Mysql maintainer all think this is too time consuming to
keep Mysql in Fedora , then he is right. We should keep the
sustainability in mind, or that's the recipe for long term problems.

>  and yes you are unsopported to run them at all on Fedora
>  but run them additionally on a fork of mysql which maybe
>  more and more incompatible over the years you are out of
>  hope and have not anything from the subjective freedom
>  
>  if there is no way to have both, mysqld AND mariadb Fedora
>  should do itself a favour and keep mysqld, not for now -
>  forever or as long not most other software supports mariadb
>  explicitly which is not the case now 
No one is going to support mariadb explicitly unless it start to be
distributed widely.

And instead of spreading FUD, please take a look at smaller distribution
that did switch to mariadb ( for example, mageia, who did since more
than 1 year ). Ask them if this cause problems or not, if they have lots
of unsupported softwares, etc. 

Then you will be able to claim "this is not supported". From what I
know, the switch was handled without problem.

-- 
Michael Scherer

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Fri, 2013-01-25 at 19:05 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
>  
>  Am 25.01.2013 18:57, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
>  > Just to be clear,  RHEL != Fedora.  Red Hat policy for RHEL kernel
>  is not acceptable to Fedora and Fedora kernel
>  > continues to have the patches split out.  You cannot use that to
>  defend MySQL policies here.  You can do whatever
>  > you want to do for the MySQL "enterprise edition" which is a
>  commercial product but the community project should
>  > have transparency and openness in how it handles bugs, security
>  issues, test cases etc.  If you are willing to
>  > commit to that,  that is a step forward.
>  
>  this is all nice and fine
>  
>  but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
>  applications may be certified for mysql  
And that is Fedora's problem how?

Pierre

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Reindl Harald]

Am 26.01.2013 21:24, schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon:
> > but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
> > applications may be certified for mysql 
>  
>  And that is Fedora's problem how? 
and THAT is the problem with many pieces of fedora-development
the last few years - what do we care for the real world usage,
we are only a design study......

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Sat, 2013-01-26 at 21:34 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
>  
>  Am 26.01.2013 21:24, schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon:
>  >> but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
>  >> applications may be certified for mysql 
>  > 
>  > And that is Fedora's problem how?
>  
>  and THAT is the problem with many pieces of fedora-development
>  the last few years - what do we care for the real world usage,
>  we are only a design study...... 
I agree, we care for real world usage of Fedora, not XYZ.

Pierre

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Jóhann B. Guðmundsson]

On 01/26/2013 08:42 PM, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
>  On Sat, 2013-01-26 at 21:34 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> > Am 26.01.2013 21:24, schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon:
> >>> but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
> >>> applications may be certified for mysql
> >> And that is Fedora's problem how?
> > and THAT is the problem with many pieces of fedora-development
> > the last few years - what do we care for the real world usage,
> > we are only a design study......
>  I agree, we care for real world usage of Fedora, not XYZ. 
Yup rhel != Fedora

The third party support can be distribution agnostic like for example [1]

Running on Fedora does not break support there however using mariadb will.

If the current maintainers orphan mysql anyone can pick it up including 
Oracle employees and continue it's maintenance within the distribution.

Any beef, competition or what not between Red Hat and Oracle ( or anyone 
else for that matter ) is between Red Hat and Oracle not Fedora and I 
cant imagine FESCO/Board standing in the way of Oracle wanting to 
packaging and maintain anything in the distribution unless it breaks 
some legal jargon just like everyone else.

JBG

1.https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRA/Supported+Platforms

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Henrique Junior]

OpenSUSE is dumping MySQL in the next release 12.3[1] and, also is
Wikipedia[2]

[1] -
http://www.muktware.com/5148/opensuse-dumps-mysql-makes-mariadb-default-d...
[2] -
http://www.zdnet.com/wikipedia-moving-from-mysql-to-mariadb-7000008912/



2013/1/26 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <johannbg(a)gmail.com&gt;

>  On 01/26/2013 08:42 PM, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 2013-01-26 at 21:34 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >
> >> Am 26.01.2013 21:24, schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon:
> >>
> >>> but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
> >>>> applications may be certified for mysql
> >>>>
> >>> And that is Fedora's problem how?
> >>>
> >> and THAT is the problem with many pieces of fedora-development
> >> the last few years - what do we care for the real world usage,
> >> we are only a design study......
> >>
> > I agree, we care for real world usage of Fedora, not XYZ.
> >
>
>  Yup rhel != Fedora
>
>  The third party support can be distribution agnostic like for example [1]
>
>  Running on Fedora does not break support there however using mariadb will.
>
>  If the current maintainers orphan mysql anyone can pick it up including
>  Oracle employees and continue it's maintenance within the distribution.
>
>  Any beef, competition or what not between Red Hat and Oracle ( or anyone
>  else for that matter ) is between Red Hat and Oracle not Fedora and I cant
>  imagine FESCO/Board standing in the way of Oracle wanting to packaging and
>  maintain anything in the distribution unless it breaks some legal jargon
>  just like everyone else.
>
>  JBG
>
>
> 1.https://confluence.**atlassian.com/display/JIRA/**Supported+Platforms&l...
>
>  --
>  devel mailing list
>  devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/devel<https://admin...
>  


-- 
Henrique "LonelySpooky" Junior
http://about.me/henriquejunior

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Honza Horak]

On 01/26/2013 10:33 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
>  On 01/26/2013 08:42 PM, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> > On Sat, 2013-01-26 at 21:34 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >> Am 26.01.2013 21:24, schrieb Pierre-Yves Chibon:
> >>>> but keep in mind that Fedora is the base for RHEL
> >>>> applications may be certified for mysql
> >>> And that is Fedora's problem how?
> >> and THAT is the problem with many pieces of fedora-development
> >> the last few years - what do we care for the real world usage,
> >> we are only a design study......
> > I agree, we care for real world usage of Fedora, not XYZ.
>
>  Yup rhel != Fedora
>
>  The third party support can be distribution agnostic like for example [1]
>
>  Running on Fedora does not break support there however using mariadb will.
>
>  If the current maintainers orphan mysql anyone can pick it up including
>  Oracle employees and continue it's maintenance within the distribution.
>
>  Any beef, competition or what not between Red Hat and Oracle ( or anyone
>  else for that matter ) is between Red Hat and Oracle not Fedora and I
>  cant imagine FESCO/Board standing in the way of Oracle wanting to
>  packaging and maintain anything in the distribution unless it breaks
>  some legal jargon just like everyone else.
>
>  JBG
>
>  1.https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRA/Supported+Platforms 
Going through the thread I currently see two reasons to keep packaging 
mysql after switching to mariadb:

Firstly, some admins may be bound to mysql because of the certification 
or similar reason, but it probably won't be a technical reason. It'd be 
nice if admins work with providers in such cases and push them to add 
mariadb into set of "supported" options. I believe there won't be 
technical barrier to do so, so everyone could benefit from that.

Second, if mariadb differs more in the future and stops to be "drop-in" 
replacement, then we'll need an alternative for applications, where 
mariadb won't be suitable enough. Nevertheless, this is not a current 
issue right now.

In both cases we'll probably need some time to evaluate how the things 
with mariadb goes, so I'd suggest to wait, observe, test and after some 
time to re-open the discussion and make a decision about dropping mysql.

When we're talking about testing, there is a mariadb package built in 
rawhide already:
   https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=380910

We're not using obsoletes for now, so in order to install the builds you 
can do the following (after the packages will by synced into rawhide repo):

# yum shell --enablerepo=rawhide
Loaded plugins: langpacks, presto, refresh-packagekit
>  remove mysql mysql-libs ...
>  install mariadb mariadb-libs ...
>  run 
Sub-package names of mariadb correspond with sub-packages of mysql.

Honza

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[James Hogarth]

>  Firstly, some admins may be bound to mysql because of the
> certification 
or similar reason, but it probably won't be a technical reason.
It'd be
nice if admins work with providers in such cases and push them to add
mariadb into set of "supported" options. I believe there won't be technical
barrier to do so, so everyone could benefit from that.
>  
Any admins retiring stability and certification probably shouldn't be
running fedora anyway... But that's a side issue. As an admin they are
welcome to use upstream (if oracle provide a fedora compatible repo) if
mysql is removed from fedora... Or just not migrate to Mariadb if both end
up packaged.

>  Second, if mariadb differs more in the future and stops to be
> "drop-in" 
replacement, then we'll need an alternative for
applications, where mariadb
won't be suitable enough. Nevertheless, this is not a current issue right
now.
>  
Indeed this is a straw man effectively.

>  When we're talking about testing, there is a mariadb package
> built in 
rawhide already:
>   https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=380910
>  
> We're not using obsoletes for now, so in order to
install the builds you
can do the following (after the packages will by synced into rawhide repo):
>  
It'll be worthwhile typo get this into F18 as others have suggested to test
without the risk of rawhide eating their data ;-)

For what it's worth the brief interaction with the two Oracle employees in
this thread sounds very similar to statements made by Oracle with respect
to Hudson and OpenOffice.org with lots of promises on one hand but those
mostly being fluff... Of course the history there speaks for itself.

> From a pragmatic point of view it would make sense for Oracle to
> maintain 
the package within the Fedora Packaging Guidelines with mariadb having
suitable provides I see no real benefit in allowing the two to be installed
side by side though.... An admin should be able to switch fairly easily...
The use of yum shell could even be avoided if the yum replace plugin at IUS
community is brought up to official fedora repositories...

If/when Oracle shows an inability to stay within the guidelines it should
then be comparatively clean to remove the mysql packages from the official
fedora repositories at the next sensible moment.

This will certainly be an interesting topic over this development cycle as
similar ones were in slightly different communities.

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Naheem Zaffar]

On 30 January 2013 04:24, James Hogarth <james.hogarth(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  > Second, if mariadb differs more in the future and stops to be
> "drop-in"
>  replacement, then we'll need an alternative for applications, where mariadb
>  won't be suitable enough. Nevertheless, this is not a current issue right
>  now.
>  >
>
>  Indeed this is a straw man effectively.
>
>  Is it? 
http://blog.mariadb.org/explanation-on-mariadb-10-0/ and
http://blog.mariadb.org/mariadb-10-0-and-mysql-5-6/ seem to suggest that
MariaDB will no longer be following Mysql as religiously as the feature
suggests

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[James Hogarth]

>  Is it?
>
>  http://blog.mariadb.org/explanation-on-mariadb-10-0/ and
>  http://blog.mariadb.org/mariadb-10-0-and-mysql-5-6/ seem to suggest that
>  MariaDB will no longer be following Mysql as religiously as the feature
>  suggests
>
>
>  
I'd still say yes since the context of this discussion is mysql 5.5 to
mariadb 5.5 and nothing to do with mysql 5.6 and the time for mariadb 10/11
to become fully compatible to what's brought to the table in that which was
the relevant discussion in those blog posts...

And if someone is using upstream themselves they are responsible to manage
that ... and assuming the versioned obsoletes is used as discussed
yesterday then there would be no accidental overwrite and compatibility if
mysql-5.6 is on the system and the admin updated without thinking...

James

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Pavel Alexeev]

01.02.2013 00:42, James Hogarth wrote:
>      Is it?
>
>      http://blog.mariadb.org/explanation-on-mariadb-10-0/ and
>      http://blog.mariadb.org/mariadb-10-0-and-mysql-5-6/ seem to
>      suggest that MariaDB will no longer be following Mysql as
>      religiously as the feature suggests
>
>
>
>  I'd still say yes since the context of this discussion is mysql 5.5 to 
>  mariadb 5.5 and nothing to do with mysql 5.6 and the time for mariadb 
>  10/11 to become fully compatible to what's brought to the table in 
>  that which was the relevant discussion in those blog posts...
>
>  And if someone is using upstream themselves they are responsible to 
>  manage that ... and assuming the versioned obsoletes is used as 
>  discussed yesterday then there would be no accidental overwrite and 
>  compatibility if mysql-5.6 is on the system and the admin updated 
>  without thinking... 
Is it really hard maintain both? May be it have worth also
package and 
support Percona with XtraDB?
>  James
>
>

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Honza Horak]

On 02/03/2013 06:24 PM, Pavel Alexeev wrote:
>  01.02.2013 00:42, James Hogarth wrote:
> > I'd still say yes since the context of this discussion is mysql 5.5 to
> > mariadb 5.5 and nothing to do with mysql 5.6 and the time for mariadb
> > 10/11 to become fully compatible to what's brought to the table in
> > that which was the relevant discussion in those blog posts...
> >
> > And if someone is using upstream themselves they are responsible to
> > manage that ... and assuming the versioned obsoletes is used as
> > discussed yesterday then there would be no accidental overwrite and
> > compatibility if mysql-5.6 is on the system and the admin updated
> > without thinking...
>  Is it really hard maintain both? May be it have worth also package and
>  support Percona with XtraDB? 
The question of maintaining both will be probably re-evaluate in the 
future again, there may be some new opinions for any way.

Speaking about XtraDB -- MariaDB includes this engine so feel free to 
test it.

Honza

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Henrique Junior]

It looks like openSUSE is providing both, MariaDB and MySQL, with MariaDB
as a default[1].

[1] - http://michal.hrusecky.net/2013/01/mysql-mariadb-and-opensuse-12-3/


2013/2/4 Honza Horak <hhorak(a)redhat.com&gt;

>  On 02/03/2013 06:24 PM, Pavel Alexeev wrote:
>
> > 01.02.2013 00:42, James Hogarth wrote:
> >
> >> I'd still say yes since the context of this discussion is mysql 5.5 to
> >> mariadb 5.5 and nothing to do with mysql 5.6 and the time for mariadb
> >> 10/11 to become fully compatible to what's brought to the table in
> >> that which was the relevant discussion in those blog posts...
> >>
> >> And if someone is using upstream themselves they are responsible to
> >> manage that ... and assuming the versioned obsoletes is used as
> >> discussed yesterday then there would be no accidental overwrite and
> >> compatibility if mysql-5.6 is on the system and the admin updated
> >> without thinking...
> >>
> > Is it really hard maintain both? May be it have worth also package and
> > support Percona with XtraDB?
> >
>
>  The question of maintaining both will be probably re-evaluate in the
>  future again, there may be some new opinions for any way.
>
>  Speaking about XtraDB -- MariaDB includes this engine so feel free to test
>  it.
>
>
>  Honza
>
>  --
>  devel mailing list
>  devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/devel<https://admin...
>  


-- 
Henrique "LonelySpooky" Junior
http://about.me/henriquejunior

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Kevin Kofler]

Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote:
>  If the current maintainers orphan mysql anyone can pick it up
> including
>  Oracle employees and continue it's maintenance within the distribution.
>  
>  Any beef, competition or what not between Red Hat and Oracle ( or anyone
>  else for that matter ) is between Red Hat and Oracle not Fedora and I
>  cant imagine FESCO/Board standing in the way of Oracle wanting to
>  packaging and maintain anything in the distribution unless it breaks
>  some legal jargon just like everyone else. 
But the fact that the packages conflict should stand in the way.

I don't see how having 2 packages which are drop-in replacements of each 
other and ship conflicting files (requiring the packages to Conflict with 
each other at RPM level) is helpful in any way. We already have too many 
Conflicts in the repository.

        Kevin Kofler

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

>  But the fact that the packages conflict should stand in the way.
>  
We don't have any guidelines that forbids it.


>  I don't see how having 2 packages which are drop-in replacements
> of each
>  other and ship conflicting files (requiring the packages to Conflict with
>  each other at RPM level) is helpful in any way. We already have too many
>  Conflicts in the repository.
>  
Do you have a proposal to solve it other than excluding all possible
alternative implementations? If so, you should post it and let FPC vote on
it.

Rahul

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Kevin Kofler]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Do you have a proposal to solve it other than excluding all possible
>  alternative implementations? If so, you should post it and let FPC vote on
>  it. 
For a starter, I propose excluding all new uses of Conflicts (except with
< someEVR versioning where an EVR >= someEVR is already available in the 
repository, or if the item being conflicted with is not in Fedora), and 
trying to get the existing ones fixed in a reasonable timeframe.

        Kevin Kofler

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 2:31 AM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:


>  For a starter, I propose excluding all new uses of Conflicts (except
> with
>  < someEVR versioning where an EVR >= someEVR is already available in the
>  repository, or if the item being conflicted with is not in Fedora), and
>  trying to get the existing ones fixed in a reasonable timeframe.
>  
You are putting the cart before the horse.  You have to demonstrate its
feasible to fix them before excluding future uses.   I don't see how it is
possible to fix the entire distribution to never use conflicts.

Rahul

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Kevin Kofler]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  You are putting the cart before the horse.  You have to demonstrate
> its
>  feasible to fix them before excluding future uses.   I don't see how it is
>  possible to fix the entire distribution to never use conflicts. 
Aggressive renaming (see e.g. what I did to kdelibs to allow kdelibs-devel 
and kdelibs3-devel to coexist; renaming is also the solution in the case of 
completely different binaries which happen to conflict), and dropping of 
unneeded compatibility cruft (where nothing really needs the compatibility 
version anymore, which seems to be the case here).

        Kevin Kofler

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Toshio Kuratomi]

On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 12:16:36AM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Hi
>  
>  
>      But the fact that the packages conflict should stand in the way.
>  
>  
>  We don't have any guidelines that forbids it.
>   
>   
Just a note for people searching the mailing list later:

We do have Guidelines that prohibit Conflicts in many cases:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Conflicts

However, the FPC recently (in the last year) added this general exception:

" However, if neither upstream is willing to rename the binaries to resolve
the conflict, AND the binaries are not viable candidates for alternatives or
environment modules (incompatible runtimes), as long as there are no clear
cases for both packages to be installed simultaneously, explicit Conflicts
are permitted at the packager's discretion. Both packages must carry
Conflicts in this case."

which this case seems to fall under.

-Toshio

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Morten Stevens]

On 25.01.2013 18:49, Andrew Rist wrote:
>  On 1/23/2013 6:05 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2013-01-23 at 17:49 -0800, Andrew Rist wrote:
> >> but the database choice for Fedora should only focus on the merits and
> >> the quality of the MySQL code
> > You may have read the mission statement, but you appear to have entirely
> > missed the four foundations:
> >
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
> >
> > of which 'Freedom' and 'Friends' are notably the first. The concerns
> > I've seen raised around MySQL are not related to the 'merits and the
> > quality of the...code' but to the freedom of the development community,
> > a topic that was noticeably absent from your mail.
>  Thanks to all for the comments.   Norvald and I offered to help package
>  and provide technical information to inform Fedora's choices.   This
>  hopefully covers "Friends", or friendly intent.   As for "Features"
> and
>  "First"  MySQL 5.6 is simply better, more performant and more stable,
>  and we think the community will not be happy with an older and less
>  stable fork of the code.   MariaDB is also going to continue to diverge,
>  which is good reason to continue to provide both MySQL and MariaDB so
>  your users can make the choice of which to use. 
I think that's a good statement. Fedora users should have the 
possibility to choose between MySQL and MariaDB.

Best regards,

Morten

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Remi Collet]

Le 24/01/2013 02:49, Andrew Rist a écrit :
>  We've been following the discussions to replace MySQL with
> MariaDB 
...

/me speaking from my experience.

I don't maintain MySQL, but various other mysql packages
(mysql-utilities, mysql-connector-python, mysql-workbench, ...).

Maintaining Oracle stuff in Fedora becomes a nightmare.

Every new release introduce new issues, mostly because there is a lack
of communication (upstream and downstream)

> From my POV, Oracle simply don't care. 
I think Oracle have choose the bad way, with OpenSource projects, and
I'm really happy to see a community response (various forks and switch
to MariaDB ,for various distro).

I simply hope that MariaDB will not stay in sync with original MySQL and
will get enough resources to become a real project (but I think they are
on the road).

Remi.

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Jóhann B. Guðmundsson]

On 01/24/2013 03:19 PM, Remi Collet wrote:
>  Le 24/01/2013 02:49, Andrew Rist a écrit :
> > We've been following the discussions to replace MySQL with MariaDB
>  ...
>
>  /me speaking from my experience.
>
>  I don't maintain MySQL, but various other mysql packages
>  (mysql-utilities, mysql-connector-python, mysql-workbench, ...).
>
>  Maintaining Oracle stuff in Fedora becomes a nightmare.
>
>  Every new release introduce new issues, mostly because there is a lack
>  of communication (upstream and downstream)
>
>   From my POV, Oracle simply don't care.
>
>  I think Oracle have choose the bad way, with OpenSource projects, and
>  I'm really happy to see a community response (various forks and switch
>  to MariaDB ,for various distro).
>
>  I simply hope that MariaDB will not stay in sync with original MySQL and
>  will get enough resources to become a real project (but I think they are
>  on the road). 
If we put Oracles history aside Oracle can (co)maintain what ever 
component they want in the distribution as long as there are no legal 
reasons not to do.

So if Oracle or any of it's employees are willing and able to put the 
effort of maintaining mysql or any other component in Fedora they are 
welcome to do so just as any other Fedora contributor.

JBG

Proposed F19 Feature: Replace MySQL with MariaDB

[Jóhann B. Guðmundsson]

On 01/24/2013 01:49 AM, Andrew Rist wrote:
>  We've been following the discussions to replace MySQL with
> MariaDB in 
>  Fedora, and would like to provide additional data to help the 
>  community make the most informed decision.  Instead of switching**the 
>  default to MariaDB 5.5 we would like to propose that Fedora instead 
>  integrate MySQL 5.6.  Switching to MariaDB would be going backwards, 
>  as their releases usually lag by at least 6 months. The differences 
>  between MariaDB 5.5 and MySQL 5.6 are quite significant, with major 
>  improvements in both performance and stability [1] , as well as 
>  additional features and improved security [2].
>
>  With hundreds of development and QA engineers, including MySQL 
>  veterans and fresh talent, Oracle has produced the most stable, 
>  secure, and scalable releases of open source MySQL ever.  We are ready 
>  to help integrate and package the latest and best-tested version of 
>  MySQL in Fedora, including becoming the package maintainer (same as we 
>  do with Ubuntu).
>
>  15 years of contributing to the Linux kernel, 8 years developing 
>  InnoDB, and now 3 years leading MySQL represent a track record that 
>  speaks for itself.  Fedora's corporate sponsor and Oracle do compete 
>  in the Linux support business, but the database choice for Fedora 
>  should only focus on the merits and the quality of the MySQL code. If 
>  Fedora, as the mission statement says wants to "lead, and not follow" 
>  we recommend you keep MySQL,  the leading edge and highest quality 
>  open source database, as the default choice in your Linux distribution.
>
>  Andrew 
Yeah about that Oracle's track records indeed speaks for itself and I'm 
pretty sure all the Solaris developers agree to that [1]

We kinda value openness and freedom here in Fedora land...

JBG

1. http://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=33m41s