Re: Security Guide Development Freeze
by Eric Christensen
Anthony,
Thanks for the offer. Right now we are in the process of finishing up quite a few entries and hope to have everything squared away for Tuesday and the new wiki.
As soon as the transition is made, I'll be posting needed material requests to the list so keep an eye out.
Thanks,
Eric
hi Eric, my name is Anthony, and wanted to keep abreast of the progress of the security, I am new to the list and want to see where I can help,my level of english is medium, but I want to help in what may....
bytes !!
2008/5/25 Eric H Christensen <eric(a)christensenplace.us>:
I just went through all of the draft Security Guide and cleaned up some of the information. I think chapters 1 through 5 are ready to be released (minus 4.5 and 4.6 which will follow soon) and moved over to the final side.
If no one has any problems with that I can do so before Tuesday.
Eric
>I'm looking over what has been completed so far in the Security Guide. I'd
>like to go ahead and move development of this guide over to the new wiki at
>this time. I'd also like to move all the drafts over to the final side [1]
>from the draft side [2] before the wiki goes live on Tuesday.
>
>I'll be reviewing what is there now. Hopefully someone else can come behind
>me and look at what's been done before Tuesday. I'm looking to our fearless
>leaders to give me the go ahead to publish this on the final side on Monday or
>Tuesday.
>
>Eric
>
>
>[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/Security_Guide/9
>[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/Docs/Drafts/CryptoGuide
>
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Anthony Mogrovejo
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Aureal Systems
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---------------------------------------------------------
"Quisiera cambiar al mundo pero no me dan los RPM..."
16 years
RE: Security Guide Development Freeze
by Eric Christensen
I just went through all of the draft Security Guide and cleaned up some of the information. I think chapters 1 through 5 are ready to be released (minus 4.5 and 4.6 which will follow soon) and moved over to the final side.
If no one has any problems with that I can do so before Tuesday.
Eric
>I'm looking over what has been completed so far in the Security Guide. I'd
>like to go ahead and move development of this guide over to the new wiki at
>this time. I'd also like to move all the drafts over to the final side [1]
>from the draft side [2] before the wiki goes live on Tuesday.
>
>I'll be reviewing what is there now. Hopefully someone else can come behind
>me and look at what's been done before Tuesday. I'm looking to our fearless
>leaders to give me the go ahead to publish this on the final side on Monday or
>Tuesday.
>
>Eric
>
>
>[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/Security_Guide/9
>[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/Docs/Drafts/CryptoGuide
>
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>fedora-docs-list mailing list
>fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com
>To unsubscribe:
>https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
16 years
Security Guide Development Freeze
by Eric Christensen
I'm looking over what has been completed so far in the Security Guide. I'd like to go ahead and move development of this guide over to the new wiki at this time. I'd also like to move all the drafts over to the final side [1] from the draft side [2] before the wiki goes live on Tuesday.
I'll be reviewing what is there now. Hopefully someone else can come behind me and look at what's been done before Tuesday. I'm looking to our fearless leaders to give me the go ahead to publish this on the final side on Monday or Tuesday.
Eric
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/Security_Guide/9
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/Docs/Drafts/CryptoGuide
16 years
Re: Governance
by Mike Dittmeier
I agree!
As a Project Manger by choice (not design) I have always tried to have a
minimal quorum to make steering decisions on what requests should
actually become projects. More ideas exist than resources, and not all
ideas match the goals of the Docs Project. My minimal quorum consists of
a Chair and Vice Chair with a sponsor (person making the request) and the
project lead (Implementer).
Chair and Vice Chair should lead the direction for all projects and sub
project. Without clear direction, an over abundance of ideas could lead
to a loss of direction or even fragmentation of the original scope the
Docs Project was designed to serve.
The Sponsor and Project Leads should report status, and poll for
resources to complete the projects. These last two positions should not
be voted on in my opinion, only the Chair and Vice Chair. A one year term
that is staggered for election purposes would mean only 2 elections a
year.
A little more than 2 cents, but whos counting
Mike Ditt Dittmeier
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Christensen"
To: "For participants of the Documentation Project"
Subject: Re: Governance
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 10:46:22 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Paul,
What positions are needed? I could see a Chair and a Vice Chair (or
whatever you wanted to call them) that would ultimately be in charge
of
the project. They could serve one year terms that could be staggered
(one start in January and one start July). Their responsibilities
would
be to lead the meetings, approve draft documentation for release, and
to
kick butt as necessary.
My opinion...
Eric
Paul W. Frields wrote:
| re: This part of Wednesday's meeting:
| = = = = =
| * We're just not sure the current elections scheme is serving us
well.
| Pushing discussion to the list for wider input. How much does
| governance matter to folks?
| ** In light of Docs role with contributors embedded in SIGs
| ** How subprojects govern themselves in the hands of subprojs?
| = = = = =
|
| http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects
|
| According to the current policy, to be a "project" (meaning an
official
| subproject) there has to be some sort of governance in place,
"possibly
| including an election or selection scheme." So we have some leeway
to
| do what we think needs to be done to empower Docs to get things
done.
| If elections are too often, too much, too early, or whatever the
popular
| opinion may be, I think we just need to decide on what the new
scheme
| will be.
|
| Would it make sense, rather than to have a sort of "global Docs
| committee" like FDSCo, instead just have people who agree to take
up the
| banner for particular interest areas, and we could still meet
regularly
| as we do now? Those assignments could be somewhat formal in nature,
and
| noted on the wiki so community members know who's responsible for
each
| area.
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iEYEARECAAYFAkg22LoACgkQL5V8yddJCO3NGQCfZZi1gH2xYfLw04JzMh08uvZd
KSkAnjrIroI2e4GXYll42kgoulu0TmG8
=D6QP
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Mike Dittmeier
mike(a)vegasitpros.com
16 years
Governance
by Paul W. Frields
re: This part of Wednesday's meeting:
= = = = =
* We're just not sure the current elections scheme is serving us well.
Pushing discussion to the list for wider input. How much does
governance matter to folks?
** In light of Docs role with contributors embedded in SIGs
** How subprojects govern themselves in the hands of subprojs?
= = = = =
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects
According to the current policy, to be a "project" (meaning an official
subproject) there has to be some sort of governance in place, "possibly
including an election or selection scheme." So we have some leeway to
do what we think needs to be done to empower Docs to get things done.
If elections are too often, too much, too early, or whatever the popular
opinion may be, I think we just need to decide on what the new scheme
will be.
Would it make sense, rather than to have a sort of "global Docs
committee" like FDSCo, instead just have people who agree to take up the
banner for particular interest areas, and we could still meet regularly
as we do now? Those assignments could be somewhat formal in nature, and
noted on the wiki so community members know who's responsible for each
area.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
16 years
Re: [Ambassadors] Re: Only a DVD writer is required!!! Please help...
by "G"
Hi Satish
> u are right , we should have version numbers, ... .but one more thing is , i
> guess many of those who would like to have the media wont be aware that such
> a list exists , .... how can we make it more popular ?
1.The Lugs should/could have a webpage for CDs right? so we people
have to make sure that the link which currently would point to their
own people should point to the fedoraproject<Location> web page which
would be of real help
2. People should first be aware that there exists a program called
Free Media. I am very sure that Lot of People now a days know about
Ubuntu's shipit so similarly this program should take flight. I guess
the new wiki which is shaping up could give importance to this page by
adding a link in the home page itself inside (Get-Fedora link) so that
the Free media program gains even more momentum too.
Cheers,
Balaji
On 5/23/08, Satish Eerpini <eerpini(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> hi balaji , ..
> u are right , we should have version numbers, ... .but one more thing is , i
> guess many of those who would like to have the media wont be aware that such
> a list exists , .... how can we make it more popular ?
>
> Thanks
> -Satish
>
>
> On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 11:00 AM, G <balajig81(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> >
> > > Currently I am writing Fedora 9 dvds.
> >
> > Please update your name in the wiki with your email ID in the
> > appropriate location that you represent if you have not done it as
> > yet.
> >
> >
> >
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/India/LocalContacts
> >
> > And What about the version numbers ? How would people come to know
> > what we posses ?. I guess version numbers are most important here
> >
> > Cheers
> > Balaji
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/23/08, Vignesh <vignesh1986(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Currently I am writing Fedora 9 dvds.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Vignesh
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/22/08, G <balajig81(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I ve updated the wiki with my name in the list for chennai. I would
> > > > also like to know how would the users get to know what versions of
> > > > fedora do ambassadors have currently. This information would be really
> > > > helpful . I am not able to find this information on that page so it
> > > > would be really good if we could also update the version of the fedora
> > > > Images that we have so that we could write it on to the DVD.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Balaji
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/22/08, susmit shannigrahi <thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > * This is for increasing Fedora Media's availability in India.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Please note, you need not spend _any_ money.
> > > > >
> > > > > * If you have a DVD writer and can donate a few minutes from your
> > > > > busy schedule, please list your name here.[1]
> > > > >
> > > > > * When users contact you, ask them to meet you with a blank CD/DVD
> as
> > > > > and when your time permits.
> > > > > All you need is to burn the CD/DVD.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]
> > >
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/India/LocalContacts
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Susmit.
> > > > >
> > > > > =============================================
> > > > > ssh
> > > > > 0x86DD170A
> > > > >
> http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SusmitShannigrahi
> > > > > =============================================
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > >
> > > > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
> > > > > Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
> > > > >
> > >
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
> > > > Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
> > > >
> > >
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
> > > Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
> > >
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
> > Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
> >
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
> Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>
>
16 years
FDSCo Meeting 2008-05-21 Summary
by Karsten Wade
Attendees:
-----------
Paul W. Frields (stickster)
Bart Couvreur (couf)
Jared Smith (jsmith)
Karsten Wade (quaid)
John Babich (jmbuser)
Summary:
---------
* We're just not sure the current elections scheme is serving us well.
Pushing discussion to the list for wider input. How much does
governance matter to folks?
** In light of Docs role with contributors embedded in SIGs
** How subprojects govern themselves in the hands of subprojs?
* Relnotes update for F9
** POT/PO sent to L10n
* First priority content work is supporting SIGs
** http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks/SIGSupport
** Need to cross-link SIG work to section in the Get Involved Guide
(GIG)
* Populate GIG with pointers to the basic Join processes
** Focus on WHY and WHAT
*** Discussed after meeting in #fedora-docs that we need to explain
that a contributor has to bring something TO Fedora to get something
FROM Fedora; by focusing on what one brings, it helps get the process
started on the right path.
** couf to work on this content
* Wiki migrating on 27 May, premigration on 23 May
** Spend some time looking at the as-migrated wiki between then,
working on fixing stuff
** https://publictest1.fedoraproject.org/wiki/
* Clarify update to Docs focus
** Write in to wiki
** Update to list, announce-list
** Wait for new GIG pages?
** quaid to work on this
16 years
FDSCo Meeting 2008-05-21 IRC log
by Karsten Wade
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minu...
12:02 < quaid> <meeting>
12:02 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo hangin'
out -- roll call and opening number
12:03 < quaid> KarstenWade, estoy aqui
12:03 * stickster present and accounted for
12:03 * couf
12:03 < jsmith> JaredSmith... estoy aqui tambien
12:03 < jsmith> (Well, for various definitions of "here")
12:04 < quaid> ok, I have weird networking stuff but this ssh seems ok,
so ...
12:05 * jsmith twiddles the bits on quaid's router
12:05 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo talking
-- Elections
12:05 < stickster> Ah, elections.
12:05 -!- mbonnet [n=mikeb(a)c-24-218-108-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit
[Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
12:06 -!- mbonnet [n=mikeb(a)c-24-218-108-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has
joined #fedora-meeting
12:06 -!- dwmw2 is now known as dwmw2_gone
12:06 * stickster hopes quaid didn't disappera
12:06 < quaid> no, I'm here
12:06 < stickster> From the Spanish for "disappear." (apologies.0
12:06 < quaid> I want to troubleshoot but then I'd drop
12:07 -!- Southern_Gentlem
[n=notfred@unaffiliated/southerngentlem/x-2894754] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:08 < quaid> ok, anyway
12:08 -!- SMParrish [n=steven(a)cpe-069-134-255-095.nc.res.rr.com] has
quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
12:08 < quaid> I'm beginning to feel like we have too many elections
around here :)
12:08 -!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 100 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops,
0 voices, 99 normal]
12:08 -!- SMParrish [n=steven(a)cpe-069-134-255-095.nc.res.rr.com] has
joined #fedora-meeting
12:08 < couf> I second that
12:08 < quaid> and I'm a bit unclear if we have achieved the steps to
setup a new Chair around here.
12:09 < quaid> so I'm open for discussion on the topic in that vein and
others
12:10 < couf> unfortunately the new-to-be chair isn't around :-/
12:10 < stickster> Yeah, it's difficult to have this conversation
without him
12:11 < quaid> ok
12:11 < stickster> Has anyone thought about Docs in light of Jef
Spaleta's role-based SIG idea, and whether we might actually enjoy
*better* success -- and a better ruler against which to measure
ourselves -- as a SIG?
12:11 < stickster> That could be total crazy talk.
12:11 < quaid> stickster: um, see ...
12:11 < quaid> that is crazy talk
12:11 < stickster> OK
12:12 < quaid> Docs is a clear example of a subproject
12:12 < quaid> in the role-based SIG world
12:12 < quaid> there would be a Documentor in each SIG focused on that
SIG content
12:12 < quaid> and that person is *also* a memmber of the Docs Project
(Subproj)
12:12 < quaid> make sense?
12:13 < Southern_Gentlem> or should be
12:13 < quaid> that said, we were discussing governance here a few hours
ago, and Jeff didn't even know that we require elections for Projects
12:13 < quaid> Southern_Gentlem: refer to "in the role-based SIG world"
12:14 -!- giarc_w [i=hidden-u(a)gnat.asiscan.com] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:14 < couf> so basiclly we would be a resource subproject working for
the SIGs?
12:15 < quaid> that's basically it
12:15 < stickster> Well, I think what quaid is saying is that we'd
"embed" with them
12:15 < stickster> Is that a good characterization of it?
12:15 < quaid> sure
12:15 * couf tries to get the whole role-based SIG concept here
12:15 < couf> right, gotcha
12:15 < quaid> the idea is to get people working on what interests them
12:16 < quaid> and filling roles there more than "packaging"
12:17 < couf> +1
12:17 < quaid> so, elections and governance ...
12:17 < quaid> on-list?
12:17 < quaid> move to, that is
12:18 < stickster> +1
12:18 < couf> maybe, but we *should* get a clear POV from John, personal
mail could help
12:18 < couf> just to make sure we don't keep pushing this back
12:20 -!- fraggle_ [n=fraggle(a)bea13-2-82-239-143-199.fbx.proxad.net] has
quit ["-ENOBRAIN"]
12:22 < Southern_Gentlem> what can be done to lower the barriers for
people to get involved in the docs project
12:22 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser(a)195.229.25.134] has joined #fedora-meeting
12:22 < jmbuser> JohnBabich late
12:23 < Southern_Gentlem> some people see it a litte extreme to have to
get on cvs just to get a tutorial on how to do docs
12:23 < stickster> Southern_Gentlem: You missed last week's meeting :-)
12:23 < stickster> jmbuser! hi!
12:24 < quaid> hey jmbuser
12:24 < jmbuser> quaid: hey
12:24 < quaid> we're discussing governance
12:24 < jmbuser> stickster: hi
12:24 < jmbuser> carry on...
12:24 < stickster> Southern_Gentlem:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00032.html
12:24 < quaid> do we need elections, etc.
12:25 < quaid> this often, etc.
12:25 < quaid> I still think it might be an on list discussion
12:25 < quaid> to have.
12:27 < stickster> Me sees that 20 minutes have gone by one topic, and
not much said about it. Sounds like a clear "silence gives consent" for
the ML.
12:27 < quaid> right on
12:27 < jmbuser> +1
12:27 < quaid> elections discussion on list etc.
12:27 < lfoppiano> Hi all, sry fro delay....
12:27 < lfoppiano> *for
12:28 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo chilling
-- Relnotes, Guides, other content
12:28 -!- RodrigoPadula [n=RodrigoP(a)189.25.241.29] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:29 < lfoppiano> uhm...I lost elections... .-/
12:29 < lfoppiano> :s/lost/miss/g
12:29 < quaid> lfoppiano: we're moving the topic to the mailing list
12:29 < quaid> ok, wsa there something to sayabout the relnotes?
12:30 * quaid hsa to be excused for typos, bad connetion, no tim e to
edit
12:30 < lfoppiano> no
12:30 < stickster> mdious has been keeping up with these, and we should
have a new package rolled later in the week
12:30 < couf> mdious has been syncing in the last bits
12:30 < stickster> Or maybe weekend
12:31 < quaid> ok, UG and other end-user content is second priority
after Fedora contributor-oriented content
12:31 < quaid> I created
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks/SIGSupport
12:31 < quaid> just so we can track who is "embedded" where
12:32 < quaid> note that Docs is supporting any contributor area, SIG
and subproject alike; just put it all on that one page for now.
12:33 < couf> do we want to formalize a process for these guys, and
join-pages updates etc
12:33 * stickster has to make a call, will continue lurking here
12:34 < quaid> couf: we could; we also need to talk to the various grops
and see what they want to do
12:34 < quaid> can someone add JohnStanley to that page as writing for
BugTriage?
12:35 < couf> sure
12:36 < couf> that is if the wiki wants to let me
12:36 < quaid> it'll be better than what I have right now
12:36 * couf can't wait next weeks move
12:36 < quaid> so, update on that
12:37 < quaid> we are doing a premigration on the 23rd
12:37 < quaid> (barring problems)
12:37 < quaid> then doing a re-import of what has changed from 23 to 27
on the 27th
12:37 < quaid> that way we have some days to get things nicer before the
actual migration is called
12:37 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk
12:37 < quaid> the old wiki will be up for some time in read-only,
hidden from search engines mode
12:39 < couf> wow, fast save for slow wiki
12:39 < quaid> ok, so then the next thing is ...
12:39 < quaid> we need to tell folks that Docs is here to help them
solve their internal docs problems
12:39 < quaid> maybe just make the GIG a first output along those lines
12:40 < quaid> so, let's add to that SIGSupport page a link to the
section in the GIG that corresponds, so we can have the same people own
that content creation
12:40 -!- jeff_hann [n=arares(a)89.40.98.185] has quit []
12:42 < couf> +1
12:43 < jmbuser> +1
12:44 -!- fraggle_ [n=fraggle(a)bea13-2-82-239-143-199.fbx.proxad.net] has
joined #fedora-meeting
12:44 * jmbuser makes slowest response in Fedora meeting history
12:44 * quaid is still waiting for his last typing to appear on the
screen
12:44 < quaid> oh, wait, it did
12:45 < quaid> ok, then ...
12:45 < couf> so shall we first get some basic "this is how you join
Fedora"-instructions into the GIG, then spread the new mantra/offering
to the world, and move on?
12:45 < quaid> couf: well, those are already there; GIG can have that,
but should focus more on the SIGs/Subprojects
12:45 < quaid> oh
12:45 < quaid> you mean
12:45 < quaid> write that in first, stub out the pages, then announce,
"come and fill and get some help with your contrib docs"?
12:46 * quaid sniffs a possible plan
12:46 < couf> yeah
12:46 < quaid> +1
12:46 < jmbuser> cool
12:47 < quaid> anyone feel they have the time to focus on the GIG to
make that happen in a short timeframe?
12:47 < couf> I could have a stab at it
12:48 < quaid> coo' couf
12:48 < quaid> Action: couf stab at GIG basic intro/join Fedora
12:48 < couf> check
12:48 < quaid> Action: then we send out announcements about the change
in Docs focus/role
12:48 < quaid> Action: meanwhile, feel free to blog about it at some
point :)
12:49 * jmbuser needs to start blogging again
12:49 < quaid> word
12:49 -!- juank_prada [n=juanky(a)200.114.38.35] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:49 < quaid> get addicted!
12:49 < quaid> ok, anything more on this topic?
12:49 * quaid adds some more actionnotes
12:49 < quaid> Action: election and governance to the list
12:50 < quaid> any other ones I missed?
12:50 < couf> not that I know off
12:50 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo chats --
All Other Bidness
12:51 < quaid> ten minutes to go and the flo' is open
12:51 < couf> time frame on cvs kill?
12:52 < quaid> hmm
12:53 < quaid> reality? F10 or later because of content actively in
there, right?
12:53 < quaid> we are maintaining docs back to F8
12:53 < quaid> so we might need it opened until F9 EOLs
12:53 < quaid> that said!
12:53 < couf> ah right gpl and all that
12:54 < quaid> we can move on from here, migrate guides for new work in
to fedorahosted.org
12:54 < quaid> couf: also, it works to build from there for those
versions, why risk a move? it will be for maintainers only at that
point anyway
12:54 < quaid> that's my off-the-cuff assessment
12:55 < couf> sure :)
12:55 < quaid> I'd say, any guides we want to publish for F9+ should get
a stand alone fedorahosted.org project, SCM of choice, and rock on
12:56 < quaid> not sure if we have to update any part of bugzilla there
or not
12:56 < couf> and toolchain needs to get in there too
12:57 -!- J5 [n=quintice@nat/redhat-us/x-f2a63c3e81ce4477] has joined
#fedora-meeting
12:58 -!- sereinity [n=sereinit(a)mon69-3-82-235-39-70.fbx.proxad.net] has
quit ["su -c'rm -rf /'"]
12:58 < couf> so I might try that after the GIG stuff
12:58 < quaid> aye, that's true
12:58 < couf> as part of my will to work on the toolchain
12:58 < quaid> ok, that's about it
12:58 < quaid> anything else for today?
12:59 < quaid> I'ma closin'
12:59 < couf> +1
12:59 < quaid> 30
12:59 < quaid> ~~ time warp ~~
12:59 < quaid> 5
12:59 < quaid> 4
12:59 < quaid> 3
12:59 < quaid> 2
12:59 < quaid> 1
12:59 < quaid> </meeting>
16 years
Toolchain meeting 2008-05-22 IRC log
by Paul W. Frields
[22 May 21:05] * stickster here
[22 May 21:05] <jsmith>
[22 May 21:05] * jsmith here
[22 May 21:05] <jfearn> jfearn, here
[22 May 21:05] <mdious> jsmith: MOIN!
[22 May 21:06] <jsmith> Howdy mdious
[22 May 21:06] <jsmith> Howdy jfearn
[22 May 21:06] <asgeirf> hello folks :)
[22 May 21:07] <jmtaylor>
[22 May 21:07] * jmtaylor waves and sits back down
[22 May 21:07] <Tsagadai> morning
[22 May 21:07] <jfearn> jsmith, g'day :0
[22 May 21:07] <stickster> All righty, no quaid I guess
[22 May 21:08] <stickster> He was having some router problems earlier
today, maybe he took the hammer to it.
[22 May 21:08] <stickster> What we want to do here is figure out where
to go with the docs toolchain.
[22 May 21:09] <stickster> The whole Fedora Docs Project is being
revamped to an extent
[22 May 21:09] <stickster> And what we were going to try to do is move
any large docs people want to maintain out into their own hosted
projects.
[22 May 21:10] <stickster> That way a community can gather around them
independently of the CVS and toolchain we've loped along with for years.
[22 May 21:10] <stickster> The question remains, what in our toolchain
is worth keeping?
[22 May 21:11] <stickster> i.e., things where we can just plug in
publican, for example
[22 May 21:11] <jsmith> Well, I think (from my own experience) that
there's probably a lot worth keeping (or incorporating into Publican)...
I just don't know it as well as I do Publican
[22 May 21:11] <jsmith> Last I heard from quaid, he was worried about
the translation stuff
[22 May 21:11] <stickster> There's a few clever bits in it, I'm pretty
sure, thanks to people who worked on it in the past
[22 May 21:11] <mdious> I think the release notes wiki/xml scripts are
worth keeping around....
[22 May 21:12] <stickster> So our toolchain is basically bound up in the
docs-common module in our CVS right now.
[22 May 21:13] <Tsagadai> moving away from wiki is a good thing.
publican is certainly easier for i18n
[22 May 21:14] <stickster> Tsagadai: Well, I'm not sure we're looking at
moving away from the wiki for things like the release notes
[22 May 21:14] <stickster> In fact, we're looking at extending MediaWiki
i18n
[22 May 21:14] <stickster> (not Docs, but the Websites guys)
[22 May 21:14] <Tsagadai> I like your idea of individual docs projects,
stickster. guides are quite different from release notes
[22 May 21:15] <asgeirf> publican is easier for translation from the
aspect of checking out the whole project from VCS. the current toolchain
integrates better with the current translation statistics/transifex
system. The transifex developers are working on addressing the issue :)
[22 May 21:15] <stickster> The release notes, as I see it, are sort of
an animal on their own.
[22 May 21:15] <mdious> opensuse wiki is fully localized - very hawt
hawt hawt: http://www.opensuse.org/
[22 May 21:15] <stickster> mdious: Actually, if you look at their
process -- it's all manual!
[22 May 21:15] <stickster> We want to find a way to do MediaWiki in an
i18n-friendly way
[22 May 21:16] <ryanlerch> individual docs projects might be less
daunting for new contributors...
[22 May 21:16] <stickster> I think we might try to get OpenSuSE to put
some muscle into it too
[22 May 21:16] <stickster> ryanlerch: I agree.
[22 May 21:16] <stickster> So each of these "book" (or sizable
"article") projects could be a fedorahosted.org project.
[22 May 21:17] <stickster> Then the *Fedora installable part* could be
in the regular Fedora source code management, the same way any other
package is.
[22 May 21:18] <stickster> A spec file, BuildRequires: publican, etc.,
and it can be maintained, built, and shipped in Fedora.
[22 May 21:18] <stickster> The "upstream" for that package would be at
fedorahosted.org
[22 May 21:18] <jfearn> publican can spit out spec and srpms based on
the docbook
[22 May 21:19] <mdious> ryanlerch: you're such a publican and graphics
ninja, when will you be sitting next to me at work...
[22 May 21:19] <stickster> We could check that out with the package
maintainer folks
[22 May 21:20] <stickster> I have a feeling that for consistency,
anything we want to roll in the distro would need to have a specfile
sitting in the Packages CVS
[22 May 21:20] <stickster> (which hopefully will be replaced some day
not too far off with a better SCM)
[22 May 21:20] <jfearn> stickster, sure, but you create it from you book
source and check it in to the CVS repo for building
[22 May 21:21] <stickster> jfearn: Exactly what I was thinking
[22 May 21:21] <stickster> And I suppose there's no harm in it being
duplicated in the fedorahosted tree because other downstreams (like
opensuse) could use it if desired.
[22 May 21:21] <stickster> sorry, "it" == "spec file"
[22 May 21:22] <stickster> The point being, we really need to decouple
our toolchain from the docs themselves.
[22 May 21:22] <jsmith> Exactly...
[22 May 21:22] <stickster> What I think we need help with is going
through the stuff in docs-common, characterizing it, and finding out
where there are potential things we could RFE into publican
[22 May 21:23] <stickster> If someone wants to spin off some other
toolchain, the more the merrier
[22 May 21:23] <mdious> andyfitz was saying
http://scenari-platform.org/projects/scenari/en/pres/co/ this is
good....
[22 May 21:23] <mdious>
(http://scenari-platform.org/trac/scenari/wiki/SCENARIbuilder)
[22 May 21:24] <jfearn> that scenari looks rockin for interactive stuff
[22 May 21:25] <stickster> Is that open source?
[22 May 21:25] <jfearn> stickster, yeah, gpl
[22 May 21:25] * stickster having a hard time digging through the flashy
site :-D
[22 May 21:25] <jmtaylor> french only though atm?
[22 May 21:26] <stickster> Um... holy crap
[22 May 21:26] <mdious> jmtaylor: the error messages are a bit hard to
decode...
[22 May 21:26] <stickster> that's pretty wild
[22 May 21:26] <jmtaylor> mdious: I bet :)
[22 May 21:26] <andyfitz> the up to date content is in french
[22 May 21:26] *** You disconnected
[22 May 21:26] *** You connected
[22 May 21:26] <mdious> I think if you want to try it, go for
http://scenari-platform.org/projects/scenari/files/SCENARIchain/lin/lates... ;)
[22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> and their upstream format is not exactly
docbook
[22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> but their editor is what im keen on
[22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> its xul
[22 May 21:27] <stickster> Whoops
[22 May 21:27] <jmtaylor> definately neat
[22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> is a _good_ visual editor
[22 May 21:27] <jfearn> I could imagine a whole website dedicated to
interactive walk throughs based on that
[22 May 21:28] <stickster> The interactive training bit seems pretty
interesting to me
[22 May 21:28] <stickster> All right, well back to the agenda here
[22 May 21:29] <stickster> So some of the things that we might want to
capture from the existing toolchain are... (anyone pitch in as desired)
[22 May 21:29] <stickster> jfearn: How does publican handle OMF
creation?
[22 May 21:30] * stickster will continue asking dummy questions, be
warned...
[22 May 21:30] <jfearn> stickster, it has a stub atm, not well tested
[22 May 21:31] <stickster> We create OMF's using just some XSLT IIRC
[22 May 21:31] <jsmith>
[22 May 21:31] * jsmith wishes Conglomerate were a bit more robust
[22 May 21:32] * stickster hands jsmith a long, white beard.
[22 May 21:32] <andyfitz> conglomerate is the biggest tease to every
technical writer... hence my interest in the senari designer
[22 May 21:32] <jsmith> OMF?
[22 May 21:33] <jfearn> stickster, we switched to html-single for
desktop docs, the OMF stuff would be easy to fix if you want xml on the
gnome desktop
[22 May 21:33] <jsmith>
[22 May 21:33] * jsmith can't remember what OMF stands for
[22 May 21:33] <stickster> Object Metadata Framework?
[22 May 21:33] * stickster digs back into cobwebs of brain
[22 May 21:33] <stickster> It's basically a metadata container about
another data file
[22 May 21:34] <stickster> In this case, scrollkeeper uses OMF to record
documentation available on your system
[22 May 21:34] <stickster> GNOME Help Viewer (yelp) scans these to
present docs in the Help browser
[22 May 21:34] <jsmith> Ah, gotcha
[22 May 21:35] <jsmith> I knew I'd heard the acronym before
[22 May 21:35] <stickster> jfearn: Something else that might be useful
is the SVG idea for logos or such
[22 May 21:35] <stickster> We have some bits in docs-common/images/ that
we used for the watermarks
[22 May 21:36] <stickster> A possible application might be SVG based
diagrams that you want to include in a document but still have it
translated
[22 May 21:37] <stickster> There might be some hurdles there but it's a
thought
[22 May 21:37] <jfearn> stickster, publican handles per-brand and
per-language image files
[22 May 21:37] <andyfitz> not many, gnome doc utils makes translating
svg easy
[22 May 21:37] <stickster> jfearn: How are those image files created?
[22 May 21:38] <andyfitz> inkscape
[22 May 21:38] <jfearn> stickster, by andyfitz ;)
[22 May 21:38] <stickster> haha
[22 May 21:38] <stickster> So they're stored with a publican doc
as .svg?
[22 May 21:39] <jfearn> stickster, yeah
[22 May 21:39] <stickster> awesome
[22 May 21:39] * stickster continues asking more Publican 101 questions.
[22 May 21:40] <stickster> jfearn: Is publican pretty much DocBook
version-agnostic at this point?
[22 May 21:40] <andyfitz> in a typical pulican workflow, content is
docbook xml and images are svg xml.. both can be translated and
rendered to different formats together or apart
[22 May 21:40] <mdious>
[22 May 21:40] * mdious glares at Red Hat campers
[22 May 21:40] <stickster> andyfitz: Exactly what I was hoping for,
cool.
[22 May 21:40] <jfearn> stickster, yes, but it deafults to 4.5
[22 May 21:40] <stickster> Cool, so XInclude support is there.
[22 May 21:41] <jfearn> stickster, oh yeah
[22 May 21:42] <stickster> jsmith: What were some of the things you saw
in the current F-Docs toolchain that we would want to capture?
[22 May 21:45] <stickster> jfearn: Seems to me we could continue to
build HTML copies, apply CSS, and publish as needed, just as you guys do
I'm sure
[22 May 21:45] <jfearn> stickster, you just set your barnd to fedora and
you have the whole payload
[22 May 21:45] <jfearn> brand
[22 May 21:45] <stickster> Here's what I'm thinking... maybe we should
try doing this with the documentation-guide as a test doc.
[22 May 21:46] <stickster> I think the release notes are pretty much the
oddball when it comes to our documentation modules, overall.
[22 May 21:46] <stickster> Oh wait.
[22 May 21:46] <stickster> What I just said makes absolutely no sense.
[22 May 21:46] <stickster> Because the whole guide will essentially be
wrong as soon as we start in on it!
[22 May 21:47] <stickster> Maybe instead we could try something like the
rpm guide.
[22 May 21:47] <stickster> AHA!
[22 May 21:47] <jfearn> stickster, I already did the rpm guide, so that
is a good choice :P
[22 May 21:47] <stickster> Well, phooey.
[22 May 21:47] <stickster> Oh, you mean you tested on it?
[22 May 21:47] * stickster thought for a minute it was already out there
in fedorahosted land and he misse dit
[22 May 21:48] <jfearn> stickster, I ported it to publican, but it
doesn't have any translations so it's easy
[22 May 21:48] <quaid>
[22 May 21:48] * quaid stumbles in after beating his network into
submission
[22 May 21:48] <stickster> jfearn: So we should go to Phase II, which is
moving that puppy to fedorahosted.org.
[22 May 21:48] <quaid> sorry, 'twas unavoidable
[22 May 21:48] <stickster> quaid: np, there's a big buffer waiting for
you though :-D
[22 May 21:49] <stickster> jfearn: we could put it in git! w00t
[22 May 21:49] <stickster> Anyhow, once we have that set up, we could do
a standard package review bug entry in bugzilla, get the package
approved, and try this out.
[22 May 21:49] <jfearn> stickster, lol, yeah we could
[22 May 21:50] <stickster> The fedorahosted site would include
instructions for how to download and contribute to the doc, with a few
easy commands.
[22 May 21:51] <stickster> Bingo, spread the docs work out to the
community.
[22 May 21:51] <jfearn> stickster, git might be a big step for some
contributers
[22 May 21:51] <stickster> Yeah, I was kinda joking ;-)
[22 May 21:51] <stickster> SVN though. Please for the love of all that's
holy, no CVS.
[22 May 21:52] <jfearn> yeah, SVN is the ... comfortable choice
[22 May 21:52] <mdious> jfearn: maybe you could open source the svn
tutorial we have here :P
[22 May 21:52] <mdious> and build it with publican
[22 May 21:52] <stickster> I've been getting to know git, and if you're
just doing work like you would in SVN, there's really no more of a bar
there.
[22 May 21:52] <stickster> But that's a sidebar... SVN is peachy for me.
[22 May 21:53] <stickster> (weeds)
[22 May 21:53] <stickster> OK, so what're our next actions then?
[22 May 21:54] <quaid>
[22 May 21:54] * quaid is all caught up on buffer
[22 May 21:54] <stickster> 1. Get a fedorahosted project for rpm-guide
(SVN preferably)
[22 May 21:54] <stickster> 2. Enter the doc there
[22 May 21:54] <stickster> & make sure it builds as needed
[22 May 21:55] <jfearn> 0. find a _writer_ to own the package, since we
want to test how it works for the target audience
[22 May 21:55] <stickster> jfearn: Ah, thank you, that's right -- we no
longer have that maintainer around these parts.
[22 May 21:56] <quaid> maybe we need an active doc then
[22 May 21:56] <quaid> software management guide, for example
[22 May 21:56] <jfearn> does it have translations?
[22 May 21:56] <stickster> I believe so
[22 May 21:56] <jfearn> rock
[22 May 21:57] <jfearn> brb
[22 May 21:58] <quaid> also, don't we want a new fh.o project for
docs-common?
[22 May 21:58] <quaid> give it a new name and start tearing it apart
[22 May 21:58] <quaid> or are you thinking we won't need a wrapper
toolchain
[22 May 21:58] <stickster> quaid: You know, I've been looking at it on
and off for the past few hours
[22 May 21:58] <quaid> and push RFEs into publican?
[22 May 21:58] <stickster> quaid: And I think most of it, honestly? is
"file 13" fodder.
[22 May 21:59] <stickster> And that's tough to say, seeing how many
hours of my life I spent figuring it out and then trying to keep it
working over the past two+ years.
[22 May 21:59] <stickster> But hey! It was a great learning
experience. :-D
[22 May 21:59] <quaid> oh, sure, everything from the garden
[22 May 21:59] <quaid> turns into compost
[22 May 21:59] <quaid> or
[22 May 22:00] <mdious> quaid: wrapper toolchain?
[22 May 22:00] <quaid> oh, wait,
[22 May 22:00] <quaid> is this a mixed channel?
[22 May 22:00] <quaid>
[22 May 22:00] * quaid won't say what else the garden turns into then
[22 May 22:00] <jfearn> it would probably be a good idea to spin
publican-fedora in to a seperate project and hand that over to the
fedora docs team
[22 May 22:00] <quaid> -1
[22 May 22:00] <stickster> Yeah, sounds forky to me
[22 May 22:00] <quaid> we can't maintain an upstream like that
[22 May 22:01] <jfearn> OK, but that is the equiv of docs-common in
publican
[22 May 22:01] <stickster> Why wouldn't we want to have a joint upstream
project like a freeIPA or whatever?
[22 May 22:01] <stickster> This doesn't have to turn into, for example,
"Dump bugs on jfearn, woohoo"
[22 May 22:02] <jfearn> stickster, well publican-fedora is the fedora
specifc branding of publican output
[22 May 22:02] <quaid> right, we have resources to help with upstream
[22 May 22:02] <quaid> that is the Fedora way, not to own the upsteam
(per se), but to work there actively.
[22 May 22:03] <stickster> Yeah, I think we should definitely provide
resources to participate
[22 May 22:04] <jfearn> no problem, it's just that a seperate
docs-common package is basically what publican-fedora is :)
[22 May 22:04] <stickster> Yeah
[22 May 22:04] <stickster> I think what I'm saying is, I'm at a point
where I want to "call it a day" with the old docs-common
[22 May 22:04] <jfearn>
[22 May 22:04] * jfearn fetches the shovel
[22 May 22:04] <quaid> right O
[22 May 22:05] <quaid> compost and ... other stuff
[22 May 22:05] <stickster> I still think that relying on the
kdesdk-utils is a much heavier footprint for this stuff, but meh.
[22 May 22:05] <stickster> If someone *really* cares about it, let them
port it or whatever.
[22 May 22:05] <jfearn> stickster, there is a bug opened to split out
the two binaries we use from that
[22 May 22:06] <stickster> jfearn: Actually, that's done
[22 May 22:06] <jfearn> stickster, yay!
[22 May 22:06] <stickster> kdesdk-utils now exists, only contains those
two
[22 May 22:06] <stickster> That's why I was trying to rebuild publican
here -- testing a specfile patch
[22 May 22:06] <jfearn> stickster, it shouldn't need a pacth since it
requires the files not a package
[22 May 22:07] <stickster> jfearn: Did I forget to update?
[22 May 22:07] <jfearn> my typing is extra lysdexic today :/
[22 May 22:07] <stickster> jfearn: Hm, in the F-9 branch it's still
'Requires: kdesdk'
[22 May 22:07] <jfearn> stickster, ahh no, it's fixed in the new version
in SVN
[22 May 22:07] <stickster> Aha
[22 May 22:08] <stickster> jfearn: So what I did was basically just to
make that 'kdesdk-utils' and move on
[22 May 22:08] <jfearn> fixed: upstream :P
[22 May 22:08] <jfearn> stickster, yeah
[22 May 22:09] <jfearn> although the build is busted in F9 for some
reason :/
[22 May 22:09] <stickster> jfearn: That's what I was encountering, I'm
pretty sure ;-)
[22 May 22:09] <mdious> mmm, these cornflakes are super good today
[22 May 22:10] * stickster throws ice cream at mdious
[22 May 22:10] <jfearn> stickster, funny it built in dvel before the cvs
update
[22 May 22:10] <mdious> nom nom nom
[22 May 22:10] <stickster> So quaid -- maybe that is a list topic then
-- who will own the SMG in fedorahosted?
[22 May 22:10] <stickster> jsmith did the new porting of content
[22 May 22:11] <Tsagadai> mdious don't make me tell susan :D
[22 May 22:11] <stickster> but he's awful busy these days.
[22 May 22:11] <mdious> Tsagadai: just don't tell her I have banana on
them too....
[22 May 22:12] <stickster> quaid: We need someone who's capable of
recording the tasks of putting a doc into fedorahosted, I suppose --
that would be something we'd want to have in our process doc.
[22 May 22:12] <jmtaylor> stickster: if jsmith is too busy I would be
willing
[22 May 22:12] <stickster> jmtaylor: ^^^
[22 May 22:13] <stickster> jmtaylor: So you'd approach this from the
standpoint of, "I'm a new writer, how do I put a doc I've made (publican
or otherwise) somewhere the community can work on it with me?"
[22 May 22:13] <stickster> And as questions arise, we all help find the
answers and you scribble them down for later use by every other guy who
comes after :-D
[22 May 22:14] <stickster> That becomes the basis for new content in the
Documentation Guide.
[22 May 22:14] <stickster> Get it?
[22 May 22:14] <jmtaylor> stickster: since we are at ground zero, makes
sense to me
[22 May 22:14] <stickster> :-)
16 years