Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
josh
On 12/16/2015 03:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
If we did November we'd be at the tail end of a release cycle / beginning of a new cycle. I know there's no perfect time, but given our history of November releases, I'd be iffy on having Flock in November.
Best,
jzb
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Joe Brockmeier jzb@redhat.com wrote:
On 12/16/2015 03:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
If we did November we'd be at the tail end of a release cycle / beginning of a new cycle. I know there's no perfect time, but given our history of November releases, I'd be iffy on having Flock in November.
Could you elaborate on why? The release being in the same month doesn't immediately strike me as a deal-breaker. In fact, with the theory that Flock is about doing things, it might be a great time.
josh
On 12/16/2015 03:32 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this
window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
If we did November we'd be at the tail end of a release cycle / beginning of a new cycle. I know there's no perfect time, but given our history of November releases, I'd be iffy on having Flock in November.
Could you elaborate on why? The release being in the same month doesn't immediately strike me as a deal-breaker. In fact, with the theory that Flock is about doing things, it might be a great time.
I mean, I agree Flock is about doing things - but I'm not sure "actively trying to get a release out the door" is one of them.
My concern is either we wind up delaying a release more because folks are in transit/at the event, or the release actually falling the week of Flock and people being distracted by that.
Looking at the last few fall releases:
Fedora 23:
- November 4th 2015 (final) - October 13 (final freeze)
Fedora 21:
- December 9 2014 (final) - November 4 2014 (beta)
Fedora 20:
- December 17 2013 (final) - November 12 2013 (beta)
Fedora 18:
- January 15 2013 (final) - November 29 2012 (beta)
Fedora 16:
- November 8 2011 (final)
Best,
jzb
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 03:59:21PM -0500, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
My concern is either we wind up delaying a release more because folks are in transit/at the event, or the release actually falling the week of Flock and people being distracted by that.
[...]
Fedora 21:
- December 9 2014 (final)
- November 4 2014 (beta)
But, actually, a lot of the reason for this delay was due to schedule conflicts with the *August* Flock — we ended up with a three-week slip to avoid it.
FWIW, Flock is in August because we were trying to get it to a more useful point in the release cycle, but that first year was when the cycle was pretty far out of whack. The other reason was to try to be close (and potentially co-locate with, although that's never worked out) to GUADEC.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 04:31:56PM -0500, Ruth Suehle wrote:
FWIW, Flock is in August because we were trying to get it to a more useful point in the release cycle, but that first year was when the cycle was pretty far out of whack. The other reason was to try to be close (and
It was right after the Fedora 19 release, right? Seems so long ago now. :)
potentially co-locate with, although that's never worked out) to GUADEC.
Yeah, in fact, it's been a conflict for people before, with people involved in both Fedora and GNOME having to choose one.
On 12/16/2015 04:37 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
Yeah, in fact, it's been a conflict for people before, with people involved in both Fedora and GNOME having to choose one.
It seemed to me that the general consensus from the GNOME/Fedora people was that they did not want to go to one city in Europe for GUADEC, then go to another city in Europe for Flock.... which is why we chased colocating Flock in the GUADEC site for a while, before that turned out to be functionally impossible (and something GUADEC didn't want).
That's why I think having as much air-gap between GUADEC and Flock is the best plan (and why I prefer November to July).
~tom
== Red Hat
On 12/16/2015 03:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
DebConf and GUADEC are in July. There are a number of "Europe" versions of major conferences in November, notably:
Velocity Fluent RubyConf DockerCon
Also, the Paris Open Source Summit (formerly Open World Forum) is likely to be in November again.
That doesn't mean we can't have Flock in July or November. Of the two, I actually think November is a better fit for our target audience.
~tom
== Red Hat
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Tom Callaway tcallawa@redhat.com wrote:
On 12/16/2015 03:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
DebConf and GUADEC are in July.
Yes, but the overlap between DebConf and Flock is likely small. If we schedule Flock carefully, we might be able to draw attendees before/after GUADEC without incurring additional international flights for them (at the cost of extended time away).
There are a number of "Europe" versions of major conferences in November, notably:
Velocity Fluent RubyConf DockerCon
Also, the Paris Open Source Summit (formerly Open World Forum) is likely to be in November again.
That doesn't mean we can't have Flock in July or November. Of the two, I actually think November is a better fit for our target audience.
I would tend to agree, but I'm not set on either timeframe either.
I should have noted that aside from the tourism aspect with the late Aug/early Sept timeframe, it is often difficult for many in the US to travel with it being the start of school year activities. Of course, we might run into US vacation conflicts in July as well.
josh
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 03:35:23PM -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Tom Callaway tcallawa@redhat.com wrote:
On 12/16/2015 03:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
DebConf and GUADEC are in July.
Yes, but the overlap between DebConf and Flock is likely small. If we schedule Flock carefully, we might be able to draw attendees before/after GUADEC without incurring additional international flights for them (at the cost of extended time away).
There are a number of "Europe" versions of major conferences in November, notably:
Velocity Fluent RubyConf DockerCon
Also, the Paris Open Source Summit (formerly Open World Forum) is likely to be in November again.
That doesn't mean we can't have Flock in July or November. Of the two, I actually think November is a better fit for our target audience.
I would tend to agree, but I'm not set on either timeframe either.
I should have noted that aside from the tourism aspect with the late Aug/early Sept timeframe, it is often difficult for many in the US to travel with it being the start of school year activities. Of course, we might run into US vacation conflicts in July as well.
I've heard from some contributors in the past that having the event in the summer is what allowed them to go. because they could build it into vacation time or mandatory PTO at work. But none of that changes that any time frame is going to inconvenience some people. We have to pick the right time frame based on what will make the event most successful.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
During the council meeting, I offered to accumulate some calendars that we should take into consideration if we're considering moving the FLOCK dates. Here are a few:
OSAS Community Calendar: http://community.redhat.com/events/ (and source here: https://github.com/OSAS/rh-events)
LWN Community Calendar: https://lwn.net/Calendar/
There are likely others to consider also, but we should def give these a look regardless.
Hope This Helps, --RemyD.
josh _______________________________________________ flock-planning mailing list flock-planning@lists.fedoraproject.org http://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/flock-planning@lists.fedoraprojec...
On 16 December 2015 at 13:15, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
My extreme thought: Colocate with FOSDEM or Devconf in 2017. That is extremely out there but might be useful to think about just to deal with costs and coordination issues.
Beyond that November would be great if we ran it over Thanksgiving week so I could take my family.
Really though, I think November with a strong push to get the release out early October is a good idea.
On 12/16/2015 04:38 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
Beyond that November would be great if we ran it over Thanksgiving week so I could take my family.
Probably a few people who'd like Flock over Thanksgiving so they could avoid their family... :-)
Freedom, Friends, First... and a side of cranberry sauce and stuffing.
On 12/16/2015 04:38 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
Beyond that November would be great if we ran it over Thanksgiving week so I could take my family.
I don't think this is a very good idea for the following reasons:
* Most Americans will not want to travel around Thanksgiving * Travel costs in the US go up significantly around Thanksgiving * Traveling during Thanksgiving is a special sort of torture
~tom
== Red Hat
On 16 December 2015 at 14:48, Tom Callaway tcallawa@redhat.com wrote:
On 12/16/2015 04:38 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
Beyond that November would be great if we ran it over Thanksgiving week so I could take my family.
I don't think this is a very good idea for the following reasons:
- Most Americans will not want to travel around Thanksgiving
- Travel costs in the US go up significantly around Thanksgiving
- Traveling during Thanksgiving is a special sort of torture
That is true. I figured it was a less extreme thought than having FLOCK moved to 2017 and worked with FOSDEM or devconf.
It does cut out one week (or 2 depending on when the week starts) from the November month for when FLOCK could occur.
~tom
== Red Hat _______________________________________________ flock-planning mailing list flock-planning@lists.fedoraproject.org http://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/flock-planning@lists.fedoraprojec...
Stephen John Smoogen píše v St 16. 12. 2015 v 14:38 -0700:
On 16 December 2015 at 13:15, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
My extreme thought: Colocate with FOSDEM or Devconf in 2017. That is extremely out there but might be useful to think about just to deal with costs and coordination issues.
For DevConf, we're limited to pretty much two dates: summer holidays and late Jan/early Feb. That's when the local universities have breaks.
We once considered moving DevConf to Sept because weather is not ideal for traveling in February, but we dismissed the idea because it was too close to Flock and the Summit. DevConf and Flock can be co-located, but definitely can't run at the same time. DevConf is already so big that it has a problem to fit in Brno venues. Flock is also a traveling conference while DevConf always takes place in Brno unless someone organizes DevConf.us :)
Beyond that November would be great if we ran it over Thanksgiving week so I could take my family.
Really though, I think November with a strong push to get the release out early October is a good idea.
For me as an attendee, August is fine although I'd appreciate if GUADEC and Flock were at least one week apart. But I understand it's probably more expensive to get people to the conference in August. I don't like the idea of November much. It's the main conference season. I attend at least two conferences in November already, LinuxCon Europe is in late October etc.
Jiri
On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Jiri Eischmann eischmann@redhat.com wrote:
Stephen John Smoogen píše v St 16. 12. 2015 v 14:38 -0700:
On 16 December 2015 at 13:15, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
Thoughts?
My extreme thought: Colocate with FOSDEM or Devconf in 2017. That is extremely out there but might be useful to think about just to deal with costs and coordination issues.
For DevConf, we're limited to pretty much two dates: summer holidays and late Jan/early Feb. That's when the local universities have breaks.
We once considered moving DevConf to Sept because weather is not ideal for traveling in February, but we dismissed the idea because it was too close to Flock and the Summit. DevConf and Flock can be co-located, but definitely can't run at the same time. DevConf is already so big that it has a problem to fit in Brno venues. Flock is also a traveling conference while DevConf always takes place in Brno unless someone organizes DevConf.us :)
Beyond that November would be great if we ran it over Thanksgiving week so I could take my family.
Really though, I think November with a strong push to get the release out early October is a good idea.
For me as an attendee, August is fine although I'd appreciate if GUADEC and Flock were at least one week apart. But I understand it's probably more expensive to get people to the conference in August. I don't like the idea of November much. It's the main conference season. I attend at least two conferences in November already, LinuxCon Europe is in late October etc.
Jiri
flock-planning mailing list flock-planning@lists.fedoraproject.org
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/flock-planning@lists.fedoraprojec...
Thank you all for your input on this topic.
For this year, after speaking with Council and with Events organizers within OSAS, I would recommend we stick with our August timeframe, and revisit moving the Flock date after this year's event if necessary.
FYI, there will be a planning call on Wednesday this week to look at the current bids for Vienna and Krakow: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Krakow-proposal and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Vienna-proposal
Looking Forward, --RemyD.
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Remy DeCausemaker decause@redhat.com wrote:
Thank you all for your input on this topic.
For this year, after speaking with Council and with Events organizers within OSAS, I would recommend we stick with our August timeframe, and revisit moving the Flock date after this year's event if necessary.
FYI, there will be a planning call on Wednesday this week to look at the current bids for Vienna and Krakow: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Krakow-proposal and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Vienna-proposal
With whom and where?
josh
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Remy DeCausemaker decause@redhat.com wrote:
Thank you all for your input on this topic.
For this year, after speaking with Council and with Events organizers
within
OSAS, I would recommend we stick with our August timeframe, and revisit moving the Flock date after this year's event if necessary.
FYI, there will be a planning call on Wednesday this week to look at the current bids for Vienna and Krakow: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Krakow-proposal and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Vienna-proposal
With whom and where?
I just assumed you were already on it, as I just got my invite today. Invite sent jwb. --RemyD.
josh _______________________________________________ flock-planning mailing list flock-planning@lists.fedoraproject.org
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/flock-planning@lists.fedoraprojec...
Is this the one at 2pm on Wednesday? Then yes.
Jen Madriaga Events Specialist Red Hat, Inc. E-mail: jmadriag@redhat.com Phone: 919-402-7952
----- Original Message ----- From: "Remy DeCausemaker" decause@redhat.com To: "Planning discussion for Flock (Fedora Contributor Conference)" flock-planning@lists.fedoraproject.org Cc: "Jennifer Madriaga" jmadriag@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 11:42:07 AM Subject: Re: Should we move the Flock date window?
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Remy DeCausemaker decause@redhat.com wrote:
Thank you all for your input on this topic.
For this year, after speaking with Council and with Events organizers
within
OSAS, I would recommend we stick with our August timeframe, and revisit moving the Flock date after this year's event if necessary.
FYI, there will be a planning call on Wednesday this week to look at the current bids for Vienna and Krakow: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Krakow-proposal and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock2016-Vienna-proposal
With whom and where?
I just assumed you were already on it, as I just got my invite today. Invite sent jwb. --RemyD.
josh _______________________________________________ flock-planning mailing list flock-planning@lists.fedoraproject.org
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/flock-planning@lists.fedoraprojec...
On Dec 17, 2015, at 1:45 AM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
As others have noted, we need to pick the best time for the Project as we will always inconvenience someone, bump into another event, hit a holiday, etc.
One thing that I think we should do is to encourage proposals over a year in advance. Planning a conference the size of Flock less than a year out can cause venue and pricing problems regardless of season.
I hope we can pick a good month (my vote is still August) and get the US proposers started today. Ideally we should be able to announce the next Flock at the end of the current one. This also would set us up for geo-specific proposers to start working on bids while they are still excited by and remember the pros and cons of the last Flock in their Geo.
Along those lines, perhaps we should ask previously successful teams if they are willing to mentor or advise proposers. Until you'e planned a few events it is hard to know what to ask for and how to negotiate.
regards,
bex
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 3:03 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bex@pobox.com wrote:
On Dec 17, 2015, at 1:45 AM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
As others have noted, we need to pick the best time for the Project as we will always inconvenience someone, bump into another event, hit a holiday, etc.
One thing that I think we should do is to encourage proposals over a year in advance. Planning a
We already do that.
I hope we can pick a good month (my vote is still August) and get the US proposers started today.
They already can.
Ideally we should be able to announce the next Flock at the end of the current one.
That is an excellent idea in theory, but as of yet we've never been able to pull it off because people don't start working on their bids until after the current Flock despite there being no requirement to wait.
josh
On 12/17/2015 05:45 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 3:03 AM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bex@pobox.com wrote:
On Dec 17, 2015, at 1:45 AM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hi All,
In the Council meeting this week, we noted that Flock lands in late August/early September and this is high tourist season in Europe. It is also a time when many take vacation. This drives prices up across many of the regions.
We wondered aloud if we could shift Flock to dates outside of this window. The two most likely alternatives would be sometime in July or sometime in November. We also noted that we should try and avoid conflicting with any other major open source conference, and that July and November seem to fit within that small goal. There are pros and cons with each date window, but we wanted to see how feasible people thought this would be.
As others have noted, we need to pick the best time for the Project as we will always inconvenience someone, bump into another event, hit a holiday, etc.
One thing that I think we should do is to encourage proposals over a year in advance. Planning a
We already do that.
I hope we can pick a good month (my vote is still August) and get the US proposers started today.
They already can.
Ideally we should be able to announce the next Flock at the end of the current one.
That is an excellent idea in theory, but as of yet we've never been able to pull it off because people don't start working on their bids until after the current Flock despite there being no requirement to wait.
Perhaps we can find a way to start to change this culture. A mentoring system might help here. I am sure there are other ideas. But without external reminders we may not find motivation early. Not many people join the Fedora Project to plan events.
regards,
bex
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd bex@pobox.com wrote:
Perhaps we can find a way to start to change this culture. A mentoring system might help here. I am sure there are other ideas. But without external reminders we may not find motivation early. Not many people join the Fedora Project to plan events.
This is also why (to your suggest of teams training teams) we don't do the new planning team every year thing anymore. It was... less than functional. Tom, Josh, and I (with the help of others) have planned all the Flock events.
On Dec 17, 2015, at 11:27 PM, Ruth Suehle rsuehle@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd <bex@pobox.com mailto:bex@pobox.com> wrote:
Perhaps we can find a way to start to change this culture. A mentoring system might help here. I am sure there are other ideas. But without external reminders we may not find motivation early. Not many people join the Fedora Project to plan events.
This is also why (to your suggest of teams training teams) we don't do the new planning team every year thing anymore. It was... less than functional. Tom, Josh, and I (with the help of others) have planned all the Flock events.
I think having consistency in the planning committee is critical. I was suggesting a mentoring/team approach for the gathering of bids. From my limited experience there seem to be some bid requirements that are not fully understood by first-timers/lay-people and we should try to help people get better bids in. That will make it easier to move forward with planning.
regards,
bex
flock-planning@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Jennifer Madriaga -
Jiri Eischmann -
Joe Brockmeier -
Josh Boyer -
Matthew Miller -
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Remy DeCausemaker -
Ruth Suehle -
Stephen John Smoogen -
Tom Callaway