3:32 a.m.
Hello All,
I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
user??
Thank You.
Regards
Technical Support
Excelize Software Pvt. Ltd.
http://www.excelize.com
9:23 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots.
Sometimes I
> make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
> these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my machine
> and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
> machine.
"your" machine => single-user environment.
> But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality hurt
> you or anyone else?
Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended ("free")
machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical workstation
scenario?
Bottom line answer to this is emphatically YES ABSOLUTELY! If it's a
kiosk type machine. In fact, given today's energy costs, I actually
would hope that someone would be savvy enough to do this at the end of
the day. There is absolutely no risk in powering such a system down as
the next user would only need to power the thing back up.
My home computer has multiple user accounts - one for each family
member. The fact that shutdown/restart is enabled at both the login
panel and in user sessions has NEVER been an issue. By pure definition,
this is a single user system that multiple people can log into. That's
notably different from a true multi-user system.
If you truly have a multi-user environment - and multi-user means that
more than 1 person is logged onto the machine simultaneously - then you
have a different scenario, and in this case, the system essentially is a
server. Best practices in security then pretty much dictate that, on top
of other things, non-administrators should not be allowed to have
physical access to the machine. Period.
Also in this case, non-administrators should indeed not be allowed to do
anything that could impact the machine or other users. It is also then
appropriate to disable the shutdown and restart buttons in user
sessions. What would also make sense in this case is to require that the
root password be provided at the login panel in order to
shutdown/restart from there.
Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
I'm not certain, however I would be hesitant to do this. Perhaps a more
appropriate feature request would be to disable shutdown/restart for non
administrators, or alternately, require that the root password be
provided if these options are chosen unless you are already logged in as
root. I would also require that the root password be provided to execute
these options from the login panel.
That, of course, assumes you're not passing out the root password or
equivalent sudo rights to non-admins in a multi-user environment...
Cheers,
Chris
--
===========================
"If you are calm while all around you is chaos,
then you probably haven't fully understood
the magnitude of the situation."
--Unknown
3:43 p.m.
Berna Massingill wrote:
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 09:31:34AM -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
>> On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 07:16 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
>> > > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 14:02 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
>> > > > Hello All,
>> > > > I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really
need these
>> > > > buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login
for any
>> > > > user??
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank You.
>> > > I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots. Sometimes
I
>> > > make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
>> > > these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my
machine
>> > > and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
>> > > machine.
>> >
>> > "your" machine => single-user environment.
>>
>> >
>> > > But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality
hurt
>> > > you or anyone else?
>> > Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended
("free")
>> > machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical
workstation
>> > scenario?
>>
>> I assume said machine does not have an on off button. We have this situation
>> in the lab at the college; 100 of them. Asign warns people not to do what
>> you think they should not do. And it mostly works.
Emphasis on "mostly" :-). (I work at the college in question.)
>> It is especially important in this environment because we have
>> multi-machine programs running on machines that look like they are just
>> sitting there.
Quite. Training people not to reboot at the first sign of
trouble has not been 100% effective either. The multi-machine
programs Aaron mentions sometimes need to run for days or weeks to
produce results, so reboots and shutdowns have real consequences.
Eventually the author of these programs found time to add a
checkpointing capability. User training only goes so far, after
all, and mistakes are sometimes made.
>> > Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
I'm hoping someone will come up with an answer to this question.
The "shutdown" menu option (once one is logged in) is particularly
a problem in that it seems all too easy to select accidentally
when one is trying to log out.
-- blm
I have disabled mine at home on the desktop machine.
I modified my /etc/gdm/custom.conf file
This is older but will point you in the right direction.
It is from this mailing list back in 2005.
http://linux.derkeiler.com/pdf/Mailing-Lists/Fedora/2005-08/1928.pdf
If you look at the /etc/gdm/custom.conf file, it references
/usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf file. Take a look there.
I have not played with this for some time so I cannot remember the full
settings and I am not at home.
--
Robin Laing
5:08 p.m.
On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 15:24 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
The above discussion is interesting except in
my /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf file:
Browser=false - yet I have face logins
Did you read what its comments said about that rule only affecting the
plain greeter? If you use a themed greeter, it's the theme that
controls whether there's a face browser.
and
#SystemMenu=true
still I can shutdown from the login menu.
Have you tried?
SystemMenu=false
And just to be sure, this is about a pop up menu, not buttons on the GDM
greeter.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
3:55 p.m.
<snip>
>> # The Actions menu (formerly system menu) is shown in the
greeter, this is the
>> # menu that contains reboot, shutdown, suspend, config and chooser. None of
>> # these is available if this is off. They can be turned off individually
>> # however.
>> #SystemMenu=true
> The above discussion is interesting except in
> my /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf file:
> Browser=false - yet I have face logins
> and
> #SystemMenu=true
> still I can shutdown from the login menu.
>
I think you want
Browser=false
and
SystemMenu=false
Notice the lack of '#' in front.
Also note that gdm may need restarted to make it take effect.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2007-December/msg01819.html
And are you sure the file should be /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf instead of
/etc/gdm/custom.conf???
Usually confs that are used are in /etc
You are right the # makes a difference. The default configuration is
in /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf. Configuration can be tuned in
etc/gdm/custom.conf.
--
=======================================================================
IN MY OPINION anyone interested in improving himself should not rule out
becoming pure energy. -- Jack Handley, The New Mexican, 1988.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
5:17 p.m.
Aaron Konstam wrote, On 04/29/2008 04:24 PM:
On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 00:19 +0930, Tim wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 08:55 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
>> I guess I am confused. I can not find an option
>> in /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf or in gdmsetup which controls the
>> display of restart and shutdown in the login screen. I am having
>> trouble finding the line that causes Face browser to show up.
> You pick a theme that doesn't have them, or use the built-in plain login
> greeter which lets you turn them on and off, then set the login options
> to disallow changing the theme. Or you could change the commands called
> by GDM if someone picked those shutdown or reboot options (set them to a
> command that does nothing).
>
>
> # Reboot, Halt and suspend commands, you can add different commands separated
> # by a semicolon. GDM will use the first one it can find.
> RebootCommand=/sbin/reboot;/sbin/shutdown -r now;/usr/sbin/shutdown -r
now;/usr/bin/reboot
> HaltCommand=/sbin/poweroff;/sbin/shutdown -h now;/usr/sbin/shutdown -h
now;/usr/bin/poweroff
>
>
> # Enable the Face browser. Note that the Browser key is only used by the
> # standard login (gdmlogin) program. The Face Browser is enabled in
> # the Graphical greeter by selecting a theme that includes the Face
> # Browser, such as happygnome-list. The other configuration values that
> # affect the Face Browser (MinimalUID, DefaultFace, Include, Exclude,
> # IncludeAll, GlobalFaceDir) are used by both the Standard and Themed
> # greeter.
> Browser=false
>
>
> # The Actions menu (formerly system menu) is shown in the greeter, this is the
> # menu that contains reboot, shutdown, suspend, config and chooser. None of
> # these is available if this is off. They can be turned off individually
> # however.
> #SystemMenu=true
The above discussion is interesting except in
my /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf file:
Browser=false - yet I have face logins
and
#SystemMenu=true
still I can shutdown from the login menu.
I think you want
Browser=false
and
SystemMenu=false
Notice the lack of '#' in front.
Also note that gdm may need restarted to make it take effect.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2007-December/msg01819.html
And are you sure the file should be /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf instead of
/etc/gdm/custom.conf???
Usually confs that are used are in /etc
--
Todd Denniston
Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane)
Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
3:24 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 00:19 +0930, Tim wrote:
On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 08:55 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> I guess I am confused. I can not find an option
> in /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf or in gdmsetup which controls the
> display of restart and shutdown in the login screen. I am having
> trouble finding the line that causes Face browser to show up.
You pick a theme that doesn't have them, or use the built-in plain login
greeter which lets you turn them on and off, then set the login options
to disallow changing the theme. Or you could change the commands called
by GDM if someone picked those shutdown or reboot options (set them to a
command that does nothing).
# Reboot, Halt and suspend commands, you can add different commands separated
# by a semicolon. GDM will use the first one it can find.
RebootCommand=/sbin/reboot;/sbin/shutdown -r now;/usr/sbin/shutdown -r
now;/usr/bin/reboot
HaltCommand=/sbin/poweroff;/sbin/shutdown -h now;/usr/sbin/shutdown -h
now;/usr/bin/poweroff
# Enable the Face browser. Note that the Browser key is only used by the
# standard login (gdmlogin) program. The Face Browser is enabled in
# the Graphical greeter by selecting a theme that includes the Face
# Browser, such as happygnome-list. The other configuration values that
# affect the Face Browser (MinimalUID, DefaultFace, Include, Exclude,
# IncludeAll, GlobalFaceDir) are used by both the Standard and Themed
# greeter.
Browser=false
# The Actions menu (formerly system menu) is shown in the greeter, this is the
# menu that contains reboot, shutdown, suspend, config and chooser. None of
# these is available if this is off. They can be turned off individually
# however.
#SystemMenu=true
The above discussion is interesting except in
my /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf file:
Browser=false - yet I have face logins
and
#SystemMenu=true
still I can shutdown from the login menu.
--
=======================================================================
The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusions. --
Maurice Chapelain, "Main courante"
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
9:49 a.m.
On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 08:55 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
I guess I am confused. I can not find an option
in /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf or in gdmsetup which controls the
display of restart and shutdown in the login screen. I am having
trouble finding the line that causes Face browser to show up.
You pick a theme that doesn't have them, or use the built-in plain login
greeter which lets you turn them on and off, then set the login options
to disallow changing the theme. Or you could change the commands called
by GDM if someone picked those shutdown or reboot options (set them to a
command that does nothing).
# Reboot, Halt and suspend commands, you can add different commands separated
# by a semicolon. GDM will use the first one it can find.
RebootCommand=/sbin/reboot;/sbin/shutdown -r now;/usr/sbin/shutdown -r
now;/usr/bin/reboot
HaltCommand=/sbin/poweroff;/sbin/shutdown -h now;/usr/sbin/shutdown -h
now;/usr/bin/poweroff
# Enable the Face browser. Note that the Browser key is only used by the
# standard login (gdmlogin) program. The Face Browser is enabled in
# the Graphical greeter by selecting a theme that includes the Face
# Browser, such as happygnome-list. The other configuration values that
# affect the Face Browser (MinimalUID, DefaultFace, Include, Exclude,
# IncludeAll, GlobalFaceDir) are used by both the Standard and Themed
# greeter.
Browser=false
# The Actions menu (formerly system menu) is shown in the greeter, this is the
# menu that contains reboot, shutdown, suspend, config and chooser. None of
# these is available if this is off. They can be turned off individually
# however.
#SystemMenu=true
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
8:55 a.m.
On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 10:38 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
>
> This thread has generated several questions. Let me see if I can
> answer a couple of them.
>
> How do you stop Shutdown, Reboot, etc from being displayed at the
> login screen:
>
> You can configure GDM (or the Display Manager of your choice) to
> display what you want. For GDM, you would look in /usr/share/gdm. I
> believe you would edit the defaults.conf file. You can use gdmsetup
> to control some of these things, but editing the setup file gives
> you finer control. You also have the option of choosing a theme that
> does not include them.
>
I guess I am confused. I can not find an option
in /usr/share/gdm/defaults.conf or in gdmsetup which controls the
display of restart and shutdown in the login screen. I am having trouble
finding the line that causes Face browser to show up.
Could you clarify?
--
=======================================================================
Some changes are so slow, you don't notice them. Others are so fast,
they don't notice you.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
12:08 a.m.
This thread has generated several questions. Let me see if I can
answer a couple of them.
How do you stop Shutdown, Reboot, etc from being displayed at the
login screen:
You can configure GDM (or the Display Manager of your choice) to
display what you want. For GDM, you would look in /usr/share/gdm. I
believe you would edit the defaults.conf file. You can use gdmsetup
to control some of these things, but editing the setup file gives
you finer control. You also have the option of choosing a theme that
does not include them.
------------
How can you control the ability to run the shutdown, reboot, etc
commands by users.
You can modify the file in /etc/security/console.apps to control
what conditions must be met to run the command. In other words, you
can change the defaults that let the console user run the commands
to instead require the root password. (Or that the user be a member
of a specif group, or other conditions.)
------------
One other thing to keep in mind - If you can get at the keyboard,
the default action of hitting Ctrl-Alt-Delete is to run the shutdown
command. If you want it to do something else, you need to edit
/etc/inittab and change "ca::ctrlaltdel:/sbin/shutdown -t3 -r now"
to what you want the system to do.
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
I have been waiting for some solution! Thanks. I was not sure whether to
post this question (Why restart & shutdown buttons) and is this really an
issue? But after reading all the replies; I realize such small things really
matters!!
Thank You.
Rahul.
Regards
Technical Support
Excelize Software Pvt. Ltd.
8:21 a.m.
Tim wrote:
Jim Cornette
> The newer version of gdm even has a clock in it. I wondered what
> usefulness for a clock when you only briefly are at login.
How new's "new"? It's been there for years...
At least one handy thing about it is that it's a simple thing to look at
that shows that the computer hasn't crashed.
I must have logged in quicker before. I overlooked it since its
inception and only recently noticed the clock.
Using the clock as system activity indicator is a good practical use for
the clock I guess.
Jim
3:56 a.m.
On Sunday 27 April 2008 03:50:15 Bill Davidsen wrote:
"Rahul Tidke" wrote:
> Hello All,
> I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
> buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
> user??
The machines are configured for use by normal users. That means that
many are used by people who should not have privilege on the machine. As
someone said, with energy costs high, downtime is desirable for most users.
In most cases people with access to the console have access to the
machine, and can get it to power down in some way other than a normal
shutdown. Therefore we make it moderately easy for people to do the
right thing, certain that people who have some need to have the machine
on all the time will take a moment and locate the configuration which
allows you to take those options off the board.
The default behavior is what is useful to most people. That's desirable.
One situation I haven't seen mentioned is when the login screen refuses to
accept keyboard input. On the box running rawhide I saw this frequently when
Mandriva 2007 was installed and I've seen it once under rawhide. Using the
mouse + menu on the login screen got a clean re-start of X which cured the
problem. What would I have done without it?
Anne
10:03 p.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
Change the login greeter theme and options...
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
10:02 p.m.
Tim wrote:
>> At least one handy thing about it is that it's a simple
thing to look at
>> that shows that the computer hasn't crashed.
David Timms:
> Or it would be if it showed the seconds ticking over... a minute
is a
> long wait to get an idea about whether the machine has hung.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
I think the question is whether the time shown on the screen is close
to
the current time.
Yes, I'm thinking more of: At some time you glance at an idle box, see
the clock, and notice that it appears fine or jammed up some time ago.
Rather than watching a box just waiting for activity.
However an easier way is just to run an animated screen saver.
I'm not sure that you could do that on the log-in screen, nor whether
that'd be a good idea for security reasons, though it would be for real
screen *saving* reasons.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
10:02 p.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:13 +0200, Antonio M wrote:
in anycase any user can press the power button or unplug the system,
so there is no safety reason to have only root options.
I'd maintain them as *options*, something that you could restrict, or
allow.
I've had a related desire: I wish the machine's power button could
initiate a shutdown at the login screen, just like it can do when a user
is logged in. I think that those sort of things, what the hardware
buttons do (power/sleep/etc.), should be per-machine configuration, not
per-user.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
9:50 p.m.
"Rahul Tidke" wrote:
Hello All,
I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
user??
The machines are configured for use by normal users. That means that
many are used by people who should not have privilege on the machine. As
someone said, with energy costs high, downtime is desirable for most users.
In most cases people with access to the console have access to the
machine, and can get it to power down in some way other than a normal
shutdown. Therefore we make it moderately easy for people to do the
right thing, certain that people who have some need to have the machine
on all the time will take a moment and locate the configuration which
allows you to take those options off the board.
The default behavior is what is useful to most people. That's desirable.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
7:01 p.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 13:52 -0400, Todd Denniston wrote:
Mostly replying to Chris. Williams, but doing it from the portion of
the
thread with much more info.
A CISSP with enough information about the use case would not through a fit.
Fits are generally perceived as unprofessional.
The CISSP would document the risks that [s]he perceived, of having power
switches (both hardware and software) available for folks at the physical
machine to press, and make sure A) it is legal for the data to be risked this
way, B) operating within the organization's security policy and C) that the
appropriate level of management and the data owner understood and accepted the
risk (signed off that they approve). CISSPs understand: there is a balance to
life, even if it means working somewhere more security aware.
In this case it _reads_ like having the PHYSICAL switches available is
probably not a big problem for the data owner[2], and with the training they
are giving it is easy enough to tape a big `don't press here` sign over the
button (as even in windows NOW the button is being trained into users a LAST
resort). And they Believe that the software switch is being hit mostly out of
accident (too close to the log out selection) or forgetfulness (habit of doing
a graceful shutdown on their own machines when done).
The problem is that they perceive there is no (obvious) place for the
administrator to tweak the UIs such that only root can run the software switch.
Even if they did not have long running jobs on the systems, the reasons to
software restrict[1] physically local users from shutting down the system
would include:
1) it is rude to make the next user wait for the machine to power up.
2) the computer lab wants to keep itself warm with the exhaust from the computers.
3) the computer lab wants to see the same power bill each month.
4) the computer lab does not want to see power cycles hitting their hard drives.
5) the sound energy in the lab is too bursty without all the fans going.
Note: Rahul indicated PolicyKit might be able to help.
I would have thought one of the switches might be able to be removed from GDM
config.
[1] so that it is not an easy accident that the system got shutdown.
because even if you remove the physical shutdown switch, there is always the
power cord, but both the cord and switch are not accidental.
OK the switch could be an accident if you are using a 15 year old computer
with a real toggle switch instead of that thing that runs to the mother board. :)
[2] though nothing indicates the legality or that they are following the
security policy.
...Now THAT was funny!!!
Definitely a keeper. I laughed til I cried. :)
Cheers,
Chris
--
===========================
"If you are calm while all around you is chaos,
then you probably haven't fully understood
the magnitude of the situation."
--Unknown
3:24 p.m.
This thread has generated several questions. Let me see if I can
answer a couple of them.
How do you stop Shutdown, Reboot, etc from being displayed at the
login screen:
You can configure GDM (or the Display Manager of your choice) to
display what you want. For GDM, you would look in /usr/share/gdm. I
believe you would edit the defaults.conf file. You can use gdmsetup
to control some of these things, but editing the setup file gives
you finer control. You also have the option of choosing a theme that
does not include them.
------------
How can you control the ability to run the shutdown, reboot, etc
commands by users.
You can modify the file in /etc/security/console.apps to control
what conditions must be met to run the command. In other words, you
can change the defaults that let the console user run the commands
to instead require the root password. (Or that the user be a member
of a specif group, or other conditions.)
------------
One other thing to keep in mind - If you can get at the keyboard,
the default action of hitting Ctrl-Alt-Delete is to run the shutdown
command. If you want it to do something else, you need to edit
/etc/inittab and change "ca::ctrlaltdel:/sbin/shutdown -t3 -r now"
to what you want the system to do.
Mikkel
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!
2:24 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:13 AM, David Timms <dtimms(a)iinet.net.au> wrote:
Tim wrote:
> At least one handy thing about it is that it's a simple thing to look at
> that shows that the computer hasn't crashed.
>
Or it would be if it showed the seconds ticking over... a minute is a
long wait to get an idea about whether the machine has hung.
I have been informed by experts in their field that a minute is only a
long time if you've got incoming.
Max
9:54 a.m.
On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 00:13 +1000, David Timms wrote:
Tim wrote:
> At least one handy thing about it is that it's a simple thing to look at
> that shows that the computer hasn't crashed.
Or it would be if it showed the seconds ticking over... a minute is a
long wait to get an idea about whether the machine has hung.
I think the question is whether the time shown on the screen is close to
the current time.
However an easier way is just to run an animated screen saver.
poc
1:22 p.m.
On Friday 25 April 2008 17:02:48 Berna Massingill wrote:
>> > Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
I'm hoping someone will come up with an answer to this question.
The "shutdown" menu option (once one is logged in) is particularly
a problem in that it seems all too easy to select accidentally
when one is trying to log out.
<cough> In KDE you can say that only root can shut down. As far as I know,
KDE is actually started when you reach the login screen.
Anne
12:52 p.m.
Berna Massingill wrote, On 04/25/2008 12:02 PM:
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 09:31:34AM -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
>> On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 07:16 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
>> > > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 14:02 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
>> > > > Hello All,
>> > > > I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really
need these
>> > > > buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login
for any
>> > > > user??
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank You.
>> > > I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots. Sometimes
I
>> > > make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
>> > > these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my
machine
>> > > and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
>> > > machine.
>> >
>> > "your" machine => single-user environment.
>>
>> >
>> > > But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality
hurt
>> > > you or anyone else?
>> > Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended
("free")
>> > machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical
workstation
>> > scenario?
>>
>> I assume said machine does not have an on off button. We have this situation
>> in the lab at the college; 100 of them. Asign warns people not to do what
>> you think they should not do. And it mostly works.
Emphasis on "mostly" :-). (I work at the college in question.)
>> It is especially important in this environment because we have
>> multi-machine programs running on machines that look like they are just
>> sitting there.
Quite. Training people not to reboot at the first sign of
trouble has not been 100% effective either. The multi-machine
programs Aaron mentions sometimes need to run for days or weeks to
produce results, so reboots and shutdowns have real consequences.
Eventually the author of these programs found time to add a
checkpointing capability. User training only goes so far, after
all, and mistakes are sometimes made.
>> > Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
I'm hoping someone will come up with an answer to this question.
The "shutdown" menu option (once one is logged in) is particularly
a problem in that it seems all too easy to select accidentally
when one is trying to log out.
-- blm
Mostly replying to Chris. Williams, but doing it from the portion of the
thread with much more info.
A CISSP with enough information about the use case would not through a fit.
Fits are generally perceived as unprofessional.
The CISSP would document the risks that [s]he perceived, of having power
switches (both hardware and software) available for folks at the physical
machine to press, and make sure A) it is legal for the data to be risked this
way, B) operating within the organization's security policy and C) that the
appropriate level of management and the data owner understood and accepted the
risk (signed off that they approve). CISSPs understand: there is a balance to
life, even if it means working somewhere more security aware.
In this case it _reads_ like having the PHYSICAL switches available is
probably not a big problem for the data owner[2], and with the training they
are giving it is easy enough to tape a big `don't press here` sign over the
button (as even in windows NOW the button is being trained into users a LAST
resort). And they Believe that the software switch is being hit mostly out of
accident (too close to the log out selection) or forgetfulness (habit of doing
a graceful shutdown on their own machines when done).
The problem is that they perceive there is no (obvious) place for the
administrator to tweak the UIs such that only root can run the software switch.
Even if they did not have long running jobs on the systems, the reasons to
software restrict[1] physically local users from shutting down the system
would include:
1) it is rude to make the next user wait for the machine to power up.
2) the computer lab wants to keep itself warm with the exhaust from the computers.
3) the computer lab wants to see the same power bill each month.
4) the computer lab does not want to see power cycles hitting their hard drives.
5) the sound energy in the lab is too bursty without all the fans going.
Note: Rahul indicated PolicyKit might be able to help.
I would have thought one of the switches might be able to be removed from GDM
config.
[1] so that it is not an easy accident that the system got shutdown.
because even if you remove the physical shutdown switch, there is always the
power cord, but both the cord and switch are not accidental.
OK the switch could be an accident if you are using a 15 year old computer
with a real toggle switch instead of that thing that runs to the mother board. :)
[2] though nothing indicates the legality or that they are following the
security policy.
--
Todd Denniston
Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane)
Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
11:41 a.m.
Jim Cornette wrote:
"Rahul Tidke" wrote:
> Hello All,
> I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
> buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
> user??
>
> Thank You.
>
>
> Regards
> Technical Support
> Excelize Software Pvt. Ltd.
> http://www.excelize.com
Having additional options there come in handy for some purposes. They do
not inhibit usage but give additional functionality.
The newer version of gdm even has a clock in it. I wondered what
usefulness for a clock when you only briefly are at login. I would not
fight to have it removed but wondered why it is there and moved on with
logging in.
Some systems sit at that display for long periods of time waiting for a
user to log in. Not every desktop system is a one-user machine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer rps2(a)nerd.com -
- Hosting Consulting, Inc. -
- -
- Warning: You are logged into reality as the root user... -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
11:02 a.m.
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 09:31:34AM -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 07:16 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 14:02 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
> > > > Hello All,
> > > > I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need
these
> > > > buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for
any
> > > > user??
> > > >
> > > > Thank You.
> > > I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots. Sometimes I
> > > make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
> > > these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my machine
> > > and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
> > > machine.
> >
> > "your" machine => single-user environment.
>
> >
> > > But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality hurt
> > > you or anyone else?
> > Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended ("free")
> > machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical
workstation
> > scenario?
>
> I assume said machine does not have an on off button. We have this situation
> in the lab at the college; 100 of them. Asign warns people not to do what
> you think they should not do. And it mostly works.
Emphasis on "mostly" :-). (I work at the college in question.)
> It is especially important in this environment because we have
> multi-machine programs running on machines that look like they are just
> sitting there.
Quite. Training people not to reboot at the first sign of
trouble has not been 100% effective either. The multi-machine
programs Aaron mentions sometimes need to run for days or weeks to
produce results, so reboots and shutdowns have real consequences.
Eventually the author of these programs found time to add a
checkpointing capability. User training only goes so far, after
all, and mistakes are sometimes made.
> > Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
I'm hoping someone will come up with an answer to this question.
The "shutdown" menu option (once one is logged in) is particularly
a problem in that it seems all too easy to select accidentally
when one is trying to log out.
-- blm
10:15 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 16:39 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 08:23 -0600, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended
("free")
> > machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical
workstation
> > scenario?
>
> Bottom line answer to this is emphatically YES ABSOLUTELY! If it's a
> kiosk type machine.
Workstation != kiosk.
A workstation is being shared amongst several users, users who aren't
necessarily logged into the console.
That, then, is not a workstation. By strict definition, it's a server. A
server is generally defined as being any computer or program that shares
its resources with another computer or program.
For example, the reason why you run an X Windows _Server_ on your
desktop is because your desktop's display is being shared by the X
Windows Server with a program that is running on your system or (often
times) elsewhere on another machine.
In your example, that "workstation" is a server because it is sharing
resources with remote users logged into the system, or other programs
are using resources that have been shared from that so-called
"workstation".
By mixing these roles in the way you state, you actually violate a
number of principles with respect to security. Users should not be
allowed to login to the console, and only administrators should have
physical access to the machine.
> In fact, given today's energy costs, I actually
> would hope that someone would be savvy enough to do this at the end of
> the day. There is absolutely no risk in powering such a system down as
> the next user would only need to power the thing back up.
To shutdown a machine, the "instance/authority" shutting down a machine
would have to know that nobody is wanting to use a machine.
...Which, again, makes the systems you describe servers. Server
administrators would know this is the case and would notify the user
community, as well any users on the system, of such events in advance.
> My home computer has multiple user accounts
This is a different scenario than what I am talking about.
> If you truly have a multi-user environment - and multi-user means that
> more than 1 person is logged onto the machine simultaneously - then you
> have a different scenario, and in this case, the system essentially is a
> server.
Well, any workstation and any Linux system to some extend is a server :)
Close. Most all modern single user systems, regardless of the OS, have
certain server capabilities. That's why we call such systems networking
peers (the peer-to-peer networking idea). However, since the intended
use of such systems is such that non-administrators have physical access
to the machine and are logged into the local console, they are treated
as single user systems.
> > Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
>
> I'm not certain, however I would be hesitant to do this.
Why? This is the classical workstation-pool scenario. A set of machines
being up around the clock and not supposed to be switched off.
...Ummm no. Actually, that's a classic server scenario that violates
some basic "system administrator 101" security principles. It mixes
roles of servers and workstations in a way that should give every CISSP
fits. Allowing non-administrators physical access to login to the local
console of such systems is just bad system administration security
practice.
Nonetheless, the solution I proposed would still allow you to work
around the situation sufficiently.
Cheers,
Chris
--
===========================
"If you are calm while all around you is chaos,
then you probably haven't fully understood
the magnitude of the situation."
--Unknown
9:50 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 09:31 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 07:16 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 14:02 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
> > > Hello All,
> > > I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
> > > buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
> > > user??
> > But I confused by your question. How does this extra
functionality hurt
> > you or anyone else?
> Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended ("free")
> machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical workstation
> scenario?
I assume said machine does not have an on off button. We have this situation
in the lab at the college; 100 of them.
That's close to the scenario I am
referring to.
Persons using "unattended/free machines" to run "long-term/expensive
jobs" (over night, over a week-end etc.) in a pool of workstations.
A scenario often to be found in universities or labs.
Asign warns people not to do what
you think they should not do. And it mostly works.
Not having these buttons would
further shift the threshold to prevent
people of shutting down such machines :)
Ralf
9:39 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 08:23 -0600, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots. Sometimes I
> > make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
> > these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my machine
> > and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
> > machine.
>
> "your" machine => single-user environment.
>
> > But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality hurt
> > you or anyone else?
> Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended ("free")
> machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical workstation
> scenario?
Bottom line answer to this is emphatically YES ABSOLUTELY! If it's a
kiosk type machine.
Workstation != kiosk.
A workstation is being shared amongst several users, users who aren't
necessarily logged into the console.
In fact, given today's energy costs, I actually
would hope that someone would be savvy enough to do this at the end of
the day. There is absolutely no risk in powering such a system down as
the next user would only need to power the thing back up.
To shutdown a machine, the "instance/authority" shutting down a machine
would have to know that nobody is wanting to use a machine.
My home computer has multiple user accounts
This is a different
scenario than what I am talking about.
If you truly have a multi-user environment - and multi-user means
that
more than 1 person is logged onto the machine simultaneously - then you
have a different scenario, and in this case, the system essentially is a
server.
Well, any workstation and any Linux system to some extend is a server :)
> Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
I'm not certain, however I would be hesitant to do this.
Why? This is the classical workstation-pool scenario. A set of machines
being up around the clock and not supposed to be switched off.
Ralf
9:31 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:47 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 07:16 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 14:02 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
> > Hello All,
> > I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
> > buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
> > user??
> >
> > Thank You.
> I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots. Sometimes I
> make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
> these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my machine
> and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
> machine.
"your" machine => single-user environment.
> But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality hurt
> you or anyone else?
Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended ("free")
machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical workstation
scenario?
I assume said machine does not have an on off button. We have this situation
in the lab at the college; 100 of them. Asign warns people not to do what
you think they should not do. And it mostly works.
It is especially important in this environment because we have
multi-machine programs running on machines that look like they are just
sitting there.
Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
Ralf
--
=======================================================================
It's like deja vu all over again. -- Yogi Berra
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
9:09 a.m.
Ralf Corsepius wrote:
Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended
("free")
machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical workstation
scenario?
Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
IIRC, this is tied to PolicyKit. So you can permanently disable
authentication as a sys admin for your system. polkit* can help.
Rahul
8:47 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 07:16 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 14:02 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
> Hello All,
> I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
> buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
> user??
>
> Thank You.
I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots. Sometimes I
make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my machine
and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
machine.
"your" machine => single-user environment.
But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality
hurt
you or anyone else?
Do you expect arbitrary users to switch off an unattended
("free")
machine in a lab's or an office's machine pool, a classical workstation
scenario?
Q: How to disable these buttons permanently?
Ralf
8:13 a.m.
2008/4/25 Christopher Mocock <chris(a)wavestore.com>:
Mustafa Qasim wrote:
> Dears lets consider some child at your home on someone else who didn't
have user account on ur system or on that particular OS accidentally turn on
the computer or boots into the OS where he doesn't hold any account to
login. Now how he can safely reboot your machine without logging in. Here
the Shutdown & Restart buttons provides the facility to safely shutdown or
restart ur OS.
>
I tend to agree. Similarly, it seems that a normal user can "reboot" from
the command line, but not "poweroff". I would have thought reboot and
poweroff would be root-only.
Obviously this decision has been made for some reason but I can't quite see
it at the moment.
--
Chris Mocock
chris(a)wavestore.com
www.wavestore.com
Office: +44 (0) 208 756 5456
Mobile: +44 (0) 7967 321 628
Wavelet Technology Ltd., Unit 1 Hayes Metro Centre, Springfield Road,
Hayes, Middlesex UB4 0LE
The contents of the e-mail and any attached files are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual to whom they are addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient and have received this email in
error, you are advised that the subsequent use, dissemination, forwarding,
printing or copying of any part of the e-mail is strictly prohibited.
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
in anycase any user can press the power button or unplug the system,
so there is no safety reason to have only root options.
My two cents
--
Antonio Montagnani
Skype : antoniomontag
8:03 a.m.
Mustafa Qasim wrote:
Dears lets consider some child at your home on someone else who
didn't
have user account on ur system or on that particular OS accidentally
turn on the computer or boots into the OS where he doesn't hold any
account to login. Now how he can safely reboot your machine without
logging in. Here the Shutdown & Restart buttons provides the facility to
safely shutdown or restart ur OS.
I tend to agree. Similarly, it seems that a normal user can "reboot"
from the command line, but not "poweroff". I would have thought reboot
and poweroff would be root-only.
Obviously this decision has been made for some reason but I can't quite
see it at the moment.
--
Chris Mocock
chris(a)wavestore.com
www.wavestore.com
Office: +44 (0) 208 756 5456
Mobile: +44 (0) 7967 321 628
Wavelet Technology Ltd., Unit 1 Hayes Metro Centre, Springfield Road,
Hayes, Middlesex UB4 0LE
The contents of the e-mail and any attached files are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual to whom they are addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient and have received this email in
error, you are advised that the subsequent use, dissemination,
forwarding, printing or copying of any part of the e-mail is strictly
prohibited.
7:31 a.m.
Dears lets consider some child at your home on someone else who didn't have
user account on ur system or on that particular OS accidentally turn on the
computer or boots into the OS where he doesn't hold any account to login.
Now how he can safely reboot your machine without logging in. Here the
Shutdown & Restart buttons provides the facility to safely shutdown or
restart ur OS.
--
Regards,
Mustafa Qasim
Lahore, Pakistan
Cell: 0321-6614972
URL: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MustafaQasim
Registered Linux User# 441709.
7:16 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 14:02 +0530, "Rahul Tidke" wrote:
Hello All,
I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
user??
Thank You.
I find these buttons very useful. My machine double boots. Sometimes I
make a mistake and allow the machine to boot to the wrong OS. Using
these buttons I can correct the situation. Other times I boot my machine
and I realize before I login that I really wanted to shutdown the
machine.
But I confused by your question. How does this extra functionality hurt
you or anyone else?
--
=======================================================================
"... the Mayo Clinic, named after its founder, Dr. Ted Clinic ..." --
Dave Barry
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
6:59 a.m.
Rahul Tidke:
> I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really
need these
> buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
> user??
It's handy to be able to shut down without having to log on. I have
rebooted instead of shutting down, occasionally. And then there's
computers that were left running for the next person, and won't be
needed anymore.
Jim Cornette
The newer version of gdm even has a clock in it. I wondered what
usefulness for a clock when you only briefly are at login.
How new's "new"? It's been there for years...
At least one handy thing about it is that it's a simple thing to look at
that shows that the computer hasn't crashed.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
5:31 a.m.
"Rahul Tidke" wrote:
Hello All,
I wonder about these buttons on gnome desktop; do we really need these
buttons on login screen? Reboot and shutdown allowed before login for any
user??
Thank You.
Regards
Technical Support
Excelize Software Pvt. Ltd.
http://www.excelize.com
Having additional options there come in handy for some purposes. They do
not inhibit usage but give additional functionality.
The newer version of gdm even has a clock in it. I wondered what
usefulness for a clock when you only briefly are at login. I would not
fight to have it removed but wondered why it is there and moved on with
logging in.
Jim
--
Justice always prevails ... three times out of seven!
-- Michael J. Wagner
8:16 a.m.
Antonio M wrote:
in anycase any user can press the power button or unplug the system,
so there is no safety reason to have only root options.
My two cents
Yes but if it were deemed necessary, the case and power connections
could be locked away and made physically inaccessible.
But then if you were going to all that effort, you could probably find a
way to disable the poweroff and shutdown options, both on the login
screen and command line.
--
Chris Mocock
(deleted the stupid work disclaimer this time!)
5849
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37 comments
20 participants
participants (20)
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Aaron Konstam -
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Christopher A Williams -
Christopher Mocock -
Development discussions related to Fedora -
Jim Cornette -
max -
Mikkel -
Mustafa Qasim -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Rahul Sundaram -
Rahul Tidke -
Ralf Corsepius -
Rick Stevens -
Robin Laing -
Tim -
Todd Denniston