12:36 p.m.
Ok... this was a scary article...
It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from the
vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the livna
version? If so, how?
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Paul Howarth
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:23 AM
To: For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Re: livna vs. nvidia
Lonni J Friedman top-posted:
There is no difference between livna and the official NVIDIA driver
package. The only difference is that one is an RPM, and the other is
not.
On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> I have read the "Why use livna" page for the Nvidia drivers. It tells
me
> that maintenance is easier. That is cool but it does not really
tell
me
> what the difference is. I am currently running the drivers as
> distributed by Nvidia and am about to upgrade my kernel. So, I am
> considering switching to the livna drivers. Before I do that, though,
I
> would like to know what I am doing.
>
> What is the difference between the two? Is the livna just a repackage
of
> the same software I get from Nvidia or is it something different?
Actually there is a very important difference. The livna package won't
clobber your system libraries.
http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2006-February/msg01178.htm
l
Paul.
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
12:43 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
Paul Lemmons wrote:
Ok... this was a scary article...
It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from the
vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the livna
version? If so, how?
The advice from the article is:
.".. completely remove the 3rd party drivers
from your system, and then perform a full "yum update" to ensure
you have the latest Fedora Core supplied X packages installed. After
doing this, do an "rpm -Va" of your whole system, in particular the
xorg-x11-*, mesa-* and lib* packages. If there are any discrepancies
found in any of the Fedora supplied packages, in particular in libGL,
or the X server packages, remove them and reinstall them and reverify
that the files installed on your system are the ones shipped by
Fedora."
You should then be OK to install the livna package.
Paul.
12:54 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
Use the --uninstall option.
On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
Ok... this was a scary article...
It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from the
vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the livna
version? If so, how?
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Paul Howarth
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:23 AM
To: For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Re: livna vs. nvidia
Lonni J Friedman top-posted:
> There is no difference between livna and the official NVIDIA driver
> package. The only difference is that one is an RPM, and the other is
> not.
>
> On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
>> I have read the "Why use livna" page for the Nvidia drivers. It tells
me
>> that maintenance is easier. That is cool but it does not really tell
me
>> what the difference is. I am currently running the drivers as
>> distributed by Nvidia and am about to upgrade my kernel. So, I am
>> considering switching to the livna drivers. Before I do that, though,
I
>> would like to know what I am doing.
>>
>> What is the difference between the two? Is the livna just a repackage
of
>> the same software I get from Nvidia or is it something different?
Actually there is a very important difference. The livna package won't
clobber your system libraries.
http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2006-February/msg01178.htm
l
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
L. Friedman netllama(a)gmail.com
LlamaLand http://netllama.linux-sxs.org
3:27 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
Thanks, It has been a while since I had installed the drivers.
Fortunately I still had the original installer on a thumb drive. I ran
it with "--uninstall". It complained a little but did succeed. I
rebooted and sure enough, all I got was a login prompt; No GUI. I yum
installed the kernel-module-nvidia... package and rebooted again, just
for fun, and everything came up.
Thank you all for your assistance!
On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:54 -0700, Lonni J Friedman wrote:
Use the --uninstall option.
On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> Ok... this was a scary article...
>
> It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from the
> vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the livna
> version? If so, how?
>
11:40 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On 4/20/06, Paul Lemmons <paul.lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
Thanks, It has been a while since I had installed the drivers.
Fortunately
I still had the original installer on a thumb drive. I ran it with
"--uninstall". It complained a little but did succeed. I rebooted and sure
enough, all I got was a login prompt; No GUI. I yum installed the
kernel-module-nvidia... package and rebooted again, just for fun, and
everything came up.
Thank you all for your assistance!
On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:54 -0700, Lonni J Friedman wrote:
Use the --uninstall option.
On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> Ok... this was a scary article...
>
> It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from the
> vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the livna
> version? If so, how?
>
As I tried yesterday, the Nvidia driver download from Nvidia 8756 putt
into a path /usr/X11R6/lib which is wrong and X11 in Fedora Core 5 is
renamed which is /usr/lib/xorg/modules and some path changed. So If u
install the Nvidia driver from Nvidia site which is faster than livna
but need to put it into right path by manual or making a symbolic link
to it. I have tried and it also work...
Fianlly, I choose livna because it is easy and convenience
Wong Kwok Hon
2:10 a.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 12:40 +0800, Wong Kwok-hon wrote:
As I tried yesterday, the Nvidia driver download from Nvidia 8756
putt
into a path /usr/X11R6/lib which is wrong and X11 in Fedora Core 5 is
renamed which is /usr/lib/xorg/modules and some path changed. So If u
install the Nvidia driver from Nvidia site which is faster than livna
but need to put it into right path by manual or making a symbolic link
to it.
Why would NVidia's be faster than Livna's? It's supposedly the same
drivers, just packaged differently, and set to install properly.
--
(Currently running FC4, occasionally trying FC5.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
3:23 a.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
Am Donnerstag, den 20.04.2006, 16:40 +0930 schrieb Tim:
On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 12:40 +0800, Wong Kwok-hon wrote:
> As I tried yesterday, the Nvidia driver download from Nvidia 8756 putt
> into a path /usr/X11R6/lib which is wrong and X11 in Fedora Core 5 is
> renamed which is /usr/lib/xorg/modules and some path changed. So If u
> install the Nvidia driver from Nvidia site which is faster than livna
> but need to put it into right path by manual or making a symbolic link
> to it.
Why would NVidia's be faster than Livna's?
Maybe he meant "It is faster available" -- livna often needs two days
(or sometimes even more) until new drivers are published in the repo.
This could be improved if there would be more people helping maintain
and testing the drivers. Maintaining them is a lot of work and the job
is quite frustrating. That's why I'll soon step down as maintainer of
the ati-fglrx and nvidia drivers in livna.
BTW, updates ATI drivers are in the livna-testing, but they have a
problem that needs to be fixed before they get into the ususal repo. See
http://bugzilla.livna.org/show_bug.cgi?id=922
Help appreciated
BTW2: Update kernel modules for FC5 building currently -- they should be
available soon.
CU
thl
5:08 a.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On 4/20/06, Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora(a)leemhuis.info> wrote:
Am Donnerstag, den 20.04.2006, 16:40 +0930 schrieb Tim:
> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 12:40 +0800, Wong Kwok-hon wrote:
> > As I tried yesterday, the Nvidia driver download from Nvidia 8756 putt
> > into a path /usr/X11R6/lib which is wrong and X11 in Fedora Core 5 is
> > renamed which is /usr/lib/xorg/modules and some path changed. So If u
> > install the Nvidia driver from Nvidia site which is faster than livna
> > but need to put it into right path by manual or making a symbolic link
> > to it.
>
> Why would NVidia's be faster than Livna's?
Maybe he meant "It is faster available" -- livna often needs two days
(or sometimes even more) until new drivers are published in the repo.
This could be improved if there would be more people helping maintain
and testing the drivers. Maintaining them is a lot of work and the job
is quite frustrating. That's why I'll soon step down as maintainer of
the ati-fglrx and nvidia drivers in livna.
BTW, updates ATI drivers are in the livna-testing, but they have a
problem that needs to be fixed before they get into the ususal repo. See
http://bugzilla.livna.org/show_bug.cgi?id=922
Help appreciated
BTW2: Update kernel modules for FC5 building currently -- they should be
available soon.
CU
Also I found a benefit of livna is the kernel module can upgrade for
further build number like 2054,2080 .
8:50 a.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 10:23 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Maybe he meant "It is faster available" -- livna often needs two days
(or sometimes even more) until new drivers are published in the repo.
This could be improved if there would be more people helping maintain
and testing the drivers. Maintaining them is a lot of work and the job
is quite frustrating. That's why I'll soon step down as maintainer of
the ati-fglrx and nvidia drivers in livna.
I'm sorry to see you stepping down. There are people out there like me
who appreciate the effort you put into keeping these updates going. I
remember the early days of this driver and how long it sometimes took.
Timing of these updates is quite good in my opinion given the work
needed to make it happen - 1 or 2 days is *much* better than some of the
earlier times when it sometimes could take a couple of weeks.
Best of luck! Whoever takes over for you will have some large shoes to
fill.
Cheers,
Chris
--
======================
"Never murder a man when he's
busy committing suicide."
-- Woodrow Wilson
5:29 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On 4/20/06, Christopher A. Williams <chrisw01(a)comcast.net> wrote:
On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 10:23 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
>
> Maybe he meant "It is faster available" -- livna often needs two days
> (or sometimes even more) until new drivers are published in the repo.
> This could be improved if there would be more people helping maintain
> and testing the drivers. Maintaining them is a lot of work and the job
> is quite frustrating. That's why I'll soon step down as maintainer of
> the ati-fglrx and nvidia drivers in livna.
I'm sorry to see you stepping down. There are people out there like me
who appreciate the effort you put into keeping these updates going. I
remember the early days of this driver and how long it sometimes took.
Timing of these updates is quite good in my opinion given the work
needed to make it happen - 1 or 2 days is *much* better than some of the
earlier times when it sometimes could take a couple of weeks.
Best of luck! Whoever takes over for you will have some large shoes to
fill.
Cheers,
Yes, please keep it on and don't step down because I think lots of
people still using it and appreciate your actions...
Thanks for livna guys great work...
Wong Kwok Hon
12:18 a.m.
New subject: anyone interested in ndiswrapper and want's to maintain it in livna (was Re: livna vs. nvidia)
Am Samstag, den 22.04.2006, 06:29 +0800 schrieb Wong Kwok-hon:
On 4/20/06, Christopher A. Williams <chrisw01(a)comcast.net>
wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 10:23 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
>
> I'm sorry to see you stepping down.
Yes, please keep it on and don't step down because I think lots of
people still using it and appreciate your actions...
I know, but it's a lot of work and I don't have enough time for it
anymore. I'll try to help the new maintainer a bit in the beginning. But
it would be best if more people could help maintaining the drivers.
Maybe a "maintain-team" would be a good idea for the graphics drivers.
BTW, the legal state of the drivers make it even more problematic for me
to maintain the drivers longer. I more and more think that they are
illegal and violate the copyright of the kernel developers. I should
have never touched these beasts; they are IMHO really bad for linux in
the longer term because they steal lots the freedom that we achieved
with free software... But that's a long story and most people don't want
to hear that (those probably say now "thl is a fool, drivers for linux
are really important; even if they are unfree")
Thanks for livna guys great work...
The "livna guys" IMHO really need more help -- there are a lot of
packages still missing in livna.
BTW, is anyone interested in taking over ndiswrapper maintainership in
livna? I packaged it because a lot of people asked for it, but I never
used it myself and want to get rid of it. Of course I'm willing to help
the new maintainer in the beginning.
CU
thl
--
Thorsten Leemhuis <fedora(a)leemhuis.info>
10:57 a.m.
New subject: anyone interested in ndiswrapper and want's to maintain it in livna (was Re: livna vs. nvidia)
On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 00:18, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
BTW, the legal state of the drivers make it even more problematic for
me
to maintain the drivers longer. I more and more think that they are
illegal and violate the copyright of the kernel developers.
If a driver is controlled by the copyright of the kernel it
is developed under, then SCO is probably right in their claims
of owning code that is also part of Linux...
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
8:46 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On 4/19/06, Wong Kwok-hon <kwokhon(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/20/06, Paul Lemmons <paul.lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> Thanks, It has been a while since I had installed the drivers. Fortunately
> I still had the original installer on a thumb drive. I ran it with
> "--uninstall". It complained a little but did succeed. I rebooted and
sure
> enough, all I got was a login prompt; No GUI. I yum installed the
> kernel-module-nvidia... package and rebooted again, just for fun, and
> everything came up.
>
> Thank you all for your assistance!
>
>
> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:54 -0700, Lonni J Friedman wrote:
> Use the --uninstall option.
>
> On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> > Ok... this was a scary article...
> >
> > It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from the
> > vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the livna
> > version? If so, how?
> >
As I tried yesterday, the Nvidia driver download from Nvidia 8756 putt
into a path /usr/X11R6/lib which is wrong and X11 in Fedora Core 5 is
renamed which is /usr/lib/xorg/modules and some path changed. So If u
install the Nvidia driver from Nvidia site which is faster than livna
but need to put it into right path by manual or making a symbolic link
to it. I have tried and it also work...
None of the symlinks are neccesary. See:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=68681
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
L. Friedman netllama(a)gmail.com
LlamaLand http://netllama.linux-sxs.org
5:26 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On 4/21/06, Lonni J Friedman <netllama(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/19/06, Wong Kwok-hon <kwokhon(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/20/06, Paul Lemmons <paul.lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> > Thanks, It has been a while since I had installed the drivers. Fortunately
> > I still had the original installer on a thumb drive. I ran it with
> > "--uninstall". It complained a little but did succeed. I rebooted and
sure
> > enough, all I got was a login prompt; No GUI. I yum installed the
> > kernel-module-nvidia... package and rebooted again, just for fun, and
> > everything came up.
> >
> > Thank you all for your assistance!
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:54 -0700, Lonni J Friedman wrote:
> > Use the --uninstall option.
> >
> > On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> > > Ok... this was a scary article...
> > >
> > > It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from the
> > > vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the livna
> > > version? If so, how?
> > >
>
> As I tried yesterday, the Nvidia driver download from Nvidia 8756 putt
> into a path /usr/X11R6/lib which is wrong and X11 in Fedora Core 5 is
> renamed which is /usr/lib/xorg/modules and some path changed. So If u
> install the Nvidia driver from Nvidia site which is faster than livna
> but need to put it into right path by manual or making a symbolic link
> to it. I have tried and it also work...
None of the symlinks are neccesary. See:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=68681
I think you haven't tried comply the kernel module before. I build a
kernel module my self before I used lvina. And I found that X still
not found the modules even I turned off the selinux option as u
quoted. The drivers putted in to a wrong place which is still X11R6.
And also the thread said :
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/nvidia_drv.so
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so.1.0.8756
For 64 bit (x86_64) installations, please run the following commands:
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/drivers/nvidia_drv.so
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so.1.0.8756
Which the modules actually are not in /usr/lib/xorg/modules/ and in
/usr/lib/X11R6/modules/
So symlink is need to redirect to the files back to /usr/lib/xorg/modules/
Wong Kwok Hon
5:39 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On 4/21/06, Wong Kwok-hon <kwokhon(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/21/06, Lonni J Friedman <netllama(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/19/06, Wong Kwok-hon <kwokhon(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 4/20/06, Paul Lemmons <paul.lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> > > Thanks, It has been a while since I had installed the drivers.
Fortunately
> > > I still had the original installer on a thumb drive. I ran it with
> > > "--uninstall". It complained a little but did succeed. I
rebooted and sure
> > > enough, all I got was a login prompt; No GUI. I yum installed the
> > > kernel-module-nvidia... package and rebooted again, just for fun, and
> > > everything came up.
> > >
> > > Thank you all for your assistance!
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:54 -0700, Lonni J Friedman wrote:
> > > Use the --uninstall option.
> > >
> > > On 4/19/06, Paul Lemmons <Paul.Lemmons(a)tmcaz.com> wrote:
> > > > Ok... this was a scary article...
> > > >
> > > > It does lead to another question though. I do have the drivers from
the
> > > > vendor installed. Do I need to uninstall them before I install the
livna
> > > > version? If so, how?
> > > >
> >
> > As I tried yesterday, the Nvidia driver download from Nvidia 8756 putt
> > into a path /usr/X11R6/lib which is wrong and X11 in Fedora Core 5 is
> > renamed which is /usr/lib/xorg/modules and some path changed. So If u
> > install the Nvidia driver from Nvidia site which is faster than livna
> > but need to put it into right path by manual or making a symbolic link
> > to it. I have tried and it also work...
>
> None of the symlinks are neccesary. See:
> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=68681
>
I think you haven't tried comply the kernel module before. I build a
I'm afraid you're wrong.
kernel module my self before I used lvina. And I found that X still
not found the modules even I turned off the selinux option as u
quoted. The drivers putted in to a wrong place which is still X11R6.
This has nothing to do with the kernel you're running. Install the
xorg-x11-server-sdk RPM via yum and you woudlnt' need to putz with
symlinks. Did you even read the instructions from the URL I posted?
And also the thread said :
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/nvidia_drv.so
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so.1.0.8756
For 64 bit (x86_64) installations, please run the following commands:
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/drivers/nvidia_drv.so
chcon -t texrel_shlib_t /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so.1.0.8756
Which the modules actually are not in /usr/lib/xorg/modules/ and in
/usr/lib/X11R6/modules/
So symlink is need to redirect to the files back to /usr/lib/xorg/modules/
Unless your'e not running FC5, what you've claimed above is wrong.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
L. Friedman netllama(a)gmail.com
LlamaLand http://netllama.linux-sxs.org
11:29 a.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
Hi Paul,
I rebooted and sure enough, all I got was a login prompt; No GUI.
I yum
installed the kernel-module-nvidia... package and rebooted again,
Can I run "yum update" etc. on "init 3" (without GUI) because my
AMD64
box always hung on GUI.
If "YES" whether running "pppoeconf" on "init 3" to make
network
connectiong. How to bring up NIC, "ifup eth0" or "service network
config"? There is only one NIC on the box. I'll disable the onboard
LAN and Sound which cause lot of trouble.
TIA
B.R.
SL
11:17 a.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
Hi Lonni,
Use the --uninstall option.
Please advise how to uninstall "nVidis" driver on "init 3" (not GUI)
I have been sufferring from making FC5_64 to work on a new AMD64 box
for several date. The PC hung while connecting to broadband. I
suspect the problem coming from onboard LAN and Sound of the
motherboard ASUS A8N-VM which uses nVidia chipset. Disabling both of
them will allow Internet browsing but still the PC hung finally. So
there is no way for me to run "yum update" which will download/install
560Mb new files. Because the PC hung in the middle.
B.R.
SL
11:13 p.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
On 4/20/06, Stephen Liu <satimis(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Lonni,
> Use the --uninstall option.
Please advise how to uninstall "nVidis" driver on "init 3" (not GUI)
Use the --uninstall option.
I have been sufferring from making FC5_64 to work on a new AMD64 box
for several date. The PC hung while connecting to broadband. I
suspect the problem coming from onboard LAN and Sound of the
motherboard ASUS A8N-VM which uses nVidia chipset. Disabling both of
them will allow Internet browsing but still the PC hung finally. So
there is no way for me to run "yum update" which will download/install
560Mb new files. Because the PC hung in the middle.
I'm not clear on how that relates to the nvidia X driver.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
L. Friedman netllama(a)gmail.com
LlamaLand http://netllama.linux-sxs.org
11:33 a.m.
New subject: livna vs. nvidia
Here is the history of my situation. It may or may not match yours.
1) I installed the nvidia drivers from the vendor.
o Downloaded driver package
o It had a name like : NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-7676-pkg1.run
o This is a shell script and I ran it at init 3 to install it
2) Time passes, new kernels come and I ignore them because I don't want
to mess with the nvidia driver
3) I start noticing video oddness (Adobe looks squashed) and consider
updating video driver
4) Posted this thread to this group and got great advice
5) Now the part you may be looking for, I uninstalled the nvidia driver
o Found that script I used to install it:
NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-7676-pkg1.run
o Ran it again with --uninstall
o Example: ./NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-7676-pkg1.run --uninstall
o There were some warnings but it was successful
6) Rebooted and there was no GUI
7) yum install kernel-module-nvidia-$(uname -r)
8) rebooted and GUI came up
9) Tested graphics with celestia and and Adobe it was beautiful
10) Noticed your question and here we are
On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 11:17 +0800, Stephen Liu wrote:
Hi Lonni,
> Use the --uninstall option.
Please advise how to uninstall "nVidis" driver on "init 3" (not GUI)
6601
days inactive
6604
days old
18 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Christopher A. Williams -
Les Mikesell -
Lonni J Friedman -
Paul Howarth -
Paul Lemmons -
Paul Lemmons
-
Stephen Liu -
Thorsten Leemhuis -
Tim -
Wong Kwok-hon